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FE: Awakening Hard Mode Tier List


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wah

That's silly. Sumia's availability easily beats that. (I know my back-up seems kind-of one-dimensional, but I covered that in my big post)

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wah

That's silly. Sumia's availability easily beats that. (I know my back-up seems kind-of one-dimensional, but I covered that in my big post)

I edited my post, but regarding her, Cordelia is just the outright-superior combat unit, and I don't think Sumia's few extra chapters is really worth so much in comparison when her Str/Def are so noticeably worse. Having such limited support options only hurts her case, not to mention she basically needs Fred or Chrom to not be relying on crits, and Fred eventually gets relegated to support bot, which means they'd have to step out instead of switch out in a bad position.

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I still think Cordelia needs to be above Sumia.

I agree with this, though not as strongly as I did before I used them both. Sumia is really important for the pre-Cordelia chapters. The red peg is better in the end, although I feel as though no matter where they go on the tier list they should probably be close to each other.
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Yeah, I wouldn't even separate them, just have Cordelia on top.

:awesome:

What, though, is Sumia so important for before Cordelia shows up?

She's the only flier available (particularly useful in Ch5), and her +SPD Pair-up boost is excellent.
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I still think Cordelia needs to be above Sumia.

EDITING: Anna above them does seem a little odd considering her later join and complete lack of support partners until after Yen'fay is defeated - and then it needs to build. If it were up to me Stahl would go down to the next tier since he always seems to have Speed too crappy to be of much use, and I'm not quite sure what makes Lon'qu so good nor do I have much experience with him, so no comment there.

I actually wanted to propose something to lower Lonqu and have Sumia on the top of A-tier, and it also had to do with his small Spd issues. Same with Lonqu- I haven't used him, but even if he can double consistently and be able to use a Killing Edge at base, I don't think that beats what Cordelia and Sumia have to offer (which is flight at least, and availability reguarding Sumia).

I edited my post, but regarding her, Cordelia is just the outright-superior combat unit, and I don't think Sumia's few extra chapters is really worth so much in comparison when her Str/Def are so noticeably worse. Having such limited support options only hurts her case, not to mention she basically needs Fred or Chrom to not be relying on crits, and Fred eventually gets relegated to support bot, which means they'd have to step out instead of switch out in a bad position.

So I took a look at their growth rates again, and their bases.

I guess I do have to reconsider what I said. I take it for granted Cordelia's the better option in the long run. Sumia's earlygame support-botting doesn't do much that would beat Cordelia in the end.

I still see them above Anna and Stahl, though.

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I fully support Sumia & Cordelia > Lon'qu. The three have very similar join time and stats. All three are useful for their +Spd pair-up. Sumia provides +Spd earliest but has a limited support pool (but it includes the important Frederick and Chrom - and later Henry). Lon'qu provides +Spd early, but he doesn't support with many units that need the Spd. Sully quickly out-grows her Spd needs and has better options in Chrom and Stahl. Miriel can also shed her Spd needs fast, has a better option in MU, and doesn't help Lon'qu at all. Vaike is a decent partner. But it isn't until Cherche joins that Lon'qu has an especially good support partner. Cordelia joins last, but has the best support pool: Stahl and Frederick being most notable. Sumia and Cordelia also provide a better secondary boost (Res > Luck).

But the big difference between Lon'qu and Sumia & Cordelia is that the Pegasus Knights have +2 mov, flight, and 1-2 range. And while flight carries its downsides, it's better overall and the +2 mov and 1-2 range are unmitigated advantages. Can someone make the case for Lon'qu > Sumia or Cordelia?

Edit: On Sumia vs. Cordelia, it takes a while for Cordelia to develop a notable Atk advantage. They're going to have nearly identical Str when Cordelia joins, Sumia has had time to build up a Frederick support, and Sumia is likely to be closer to wielding Frederick's Silver Lance. I think Sumia has the superior offense until Cordelia develops an A support. Sumia is also viable as a Dark Flier, if her magic grows comparitively better than her Str. I'm still undecided on Sumia vs. Cordelia...

Edited by aku chi
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I'm currently recording a playlog following this tierlist's guidelines and I'm using Lon'qu & Cordelia. You can check it out to follow their development, but so far all of the points for the fliers to pass Lon'qu are spot on from what I can tell. When Cherche shows up, Lon'qu basically becomes a third highly mobile offensive unit to choose from. So it follows that in order from easiest/earliest to hardest/latest options to fill the "high mobility offense" unit on the team goes Sumia, Cordelia, Lon'qu. It makes sense for their tier positions to reflect this.

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I like the idea of putting the Pegs over Lon'qu.

Chs 5-7: Lon'qu is great in all these chapters because of all the axes; Sumia's not bad.

Chs 8-9: Both desert chapters; the Pegs are especially good for getting all the villages quickly.

Ch 10: Lon'qu beats the axe users. Mobility isn't a huge boon since we're not assuming Rescue-skipping.

Ch 11: The Pegs win out here; Lon'qu can't handle all the 1-2 range unless he took one of the two Master Seals (which has a big opportunity cost; Sully can become a Paladin, while Avatar can become a GM) to go into Assassin. Meanwhile, the Pegs can either hurl Javelins or ferry superunits like Avatar. The starting position is close enough to the enemies that ferrying can easily secure a two- or three-turn clear.

Ch 12: Fly over the partitions or into the boat with the Pegs. Lon'qu won't have the Armorslayer for all the Knights if you've cleared Ch 11 before turn three enemy phase.

Ch 13-14: Assassination missions; Pegs win.

Ch 15: A Peg is capable of handling the beach, as well as the non-armored units. Although he should dodge very well by now, Lon'qu likely won't have offensively productive enemy phases because of all the mages and lances.

Ch 16: It's a large assassination map; even if you're not Rescue-skipping, a Peg is more useful just because the map is so big.

Ch 17: In spite of the Snipers, I'd still say the Pegs are more useful than Lon'qu. Mobility is key, whether you're gunning for the Boots or ending the level prematurely.

Ch 18: This is an assassination mission in which the Pegs can just fly over the lava.

I can possibly see Lon'qu being more useful than the Pegs in Chs 21 (since we're not Galeforce-skipping) and 23 (lots of bow users). But otherwise, the lategame generally favors mobility, even in a rout map like 24.

Lon'qu gets two underwhelming weapon types in his default class branch: swords (bad past the earlygame) and bows (bad if you're not playing Lunatic+). He can get around this by going to the Wyvern Rider class, but when top-flight units like Sully (WR), Panne (WR), Avatar (Tactician -> Peg Knight or GM -> Dark Flier) are also fighting for it, giving the Second Seal to Lon'qu has a pretty glaring opportunity cost.

Edited by Redwall
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Ch 10: Lon'qu beats the axe users. Mobility isn't a huge boon since we're not assuming Rescue-skipping.

I disagree. C10 is a boss-kill chapter, so +2 mov is definitely helpful. One also needs >5 mov to chase down the Thieves with their loot. Flight helps the Pegasus Knights moderate their enemy phase exposure by using the bones terrain on the map. While there are more axe enemies than sword enemies, 25-35% of the enemies have 1-2 range, so Lon'qu doesn't even have a clear weapon advantage here.
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I'm pretty sure Lon'qu can also support Panne in hard (I've paired them in lunatic), but she appreciates Def and Str more as she should double everything forever anyway.

I'm not entirely convinced in Anna being in high, I know she has good speed but it seems kinda superfluous when most of our party will be perma doubling the whole game and Levinsword!Anna is nice and all, but there aren't that many around if we exclude merchants.

In comparison, Tharja is a lot harder to kill, joins before she does and has an instant good support partner in Libra. She also has perma 1-2 range and deals a lot of damage. The only significant thing I can recall off the top of my head that Anna has over Tharja is rescue usage, and Libra and our pegasii can do that safely.

Then again, I didn't use Anna in my hard playthrough, so I'm judging her solely on her lunatic performance, which is obviously very different.

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Avoid is a number with increasing returns; decreasing the enemy hit from 20 to 10 increases the number of enemy attacks you can survive to a much larger extent than will decreasing the enemy hit from 90 to 80. Given she has Tantivy, Even Rhythm, and sometimes Quick Burn, there is no question that Panne prefers a +Spd boost over anything.

Edited by Redwall
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I'm curious about Miriel > Vaike. What resources is she getting that allow her to be a more productive unit?

They come at (essentially) the exact same time except Vaike is hitting harder and can support basically everyone relevant besides Freddy and Sumia. Notably this includes Chrom, Cordelia, Panne and Lon'qu who all appreciate the +4 damage boost. Miriel is basically useless for everyone but MU, and MU obviously isn't going to be her support unit.

Most of the early mage enemies are awful on Hard mode so he isn't in real danger if you decide to fight with him. Miriel isn't taking more than one enemy phase attack for a long time and no pair up will both help her live and increase her damage to the point where she is useful.

Also, Hammers exist from Chapter 3 and don't really help Frederick kill things earlygame.

Later on Vaike has problems with mages, but I fail to see how that compares to Miriel's early problems with being relevant enough to even make it to level 10.

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I'm curious about Miriel > Vaike. What resources is she getting that allow her to be a more productive unit?

They come at (essentially) the exact same time except Vaike is hitting harder and can support basically everyone relevant besides Freddy and Sumia. Notably this includes Chrom, Cordelia, Panne and Lon'qu who all appreciate the +4 damage boost. Miriel is basically useless for everyone but MU, and MU obviously isn't going to be her support unit.

Most of the early mage enemies are awful on Hard mode so he isn't in real danger if you decide to fight with him. Miriel isn't taking more than one enemy phase attack for a long time and no pair up will both help her live and increase her damage to the point where she is useful.

Also, Hammers exist from Chapter 3 and don't really help Frederick kill things earlygame.

Later on Vaike has problems with mages, but I fail to see how that compares to Miriel's early problems with being relevant enough to even make it to level 10.

I was wondering why Miriel is so high myself..

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I'm curious about Miriel > Vaike. What resources is she getting that allow her to be a more productive unit?

They come at (essentially) the exact same time except Vaike is hitting harder and can support basically everyone relevant besides Freddy and Sumia. Notably this includes Chrom, Cordelia, Panne and Lon'qu who all appreciate the +4 damage boost. Miriel is basically useless for everyone but MU, and MU obviously isn't going to be her support unit.

Most of the early mage enemies are awful on Hard mode so he isn't in real danger if you decide to fight with him. Miriel isn't taking more than one enemy phase attack for a long time and no pair up will both help her live and increase her damage to the point where she is useful.

Also, Hammers exist from Chapter 3 and don't really help Frederick kill things earlygame.

Later on Vaike has problems with mages, but I fail to see how that compares to Miriel's early problems with being relevant enough to even make it to level 10.

Bravo. Someone else noticed the super glaring flaw of miriel. She wants both a def partner because of her awful def AND she also wants someone that gives her either mag/spd because shes not really doubling and orko'ing for a good while without em. If she takes the latter partner, she will at best nuke a single enemy in enemy phase because she cant take 2 hits. If she takes the former, she might survive 2 hits MAYBE but she wont have anything resembling good offense.

Meanwhile, Vaike at least has Lon'qu support to fix his spd. Once he gets going, can anyone even stop him?

Edited by Peekayell
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Miriel does have the highest rescue range when she promotes and highest psychic range as well if she manages to hit C staves.

I personally haven't used Vaike all that much so I can't say much about him, but doesn't he have some defensive problems as well? Miriel's defense is horrible, but she has much better ranged attack which keeps her a little safe.

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If she takes the former, she might survive 2 hits MAYBE but she wont have anything resembling good offense.

We could reclass Miriel into a sorceror for nosferato spam, so durability shouldn't be an issue once she starts doubling. Vaike has no such easy fix though.

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But what about miriel's issue in earlygame that I mentioned? Why even bother with her when Its quite painful to get her to level 10. Also, I cringe everytime someone mentions nosferatu ._.. So overrated.

EDIT: Also, Vaike has Sol, Lon'qu support, 1-2 range with massive str and has an actual def growth.

Edited by Peekayell
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We could reclass Miriel into a sorceror for nosferato spam, so durability shouldn't be an issue once she starts doubling. Vaike has no such easy fix though.

When? Burning an early Second seal in order to get essentially another Tharja seems pointless when there are a ton of other units that want it.

Also what problems of Vaike's need fixing? He isn't having huge durability problems on Hard mode aside from mage enemies and a lot of chapters don't even have those. He can support a whole host of units that benefit from his attack boost and can up his speed.

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Gotta agree with Miriel dropping below Vaike. Her durability too poor to gain much exp without it being spoonfed to her, and her pairup bonuses don't do much earlygame. Let's compare the two.

Vaike: +4 str, +2 def

Miriel: +4 mag, + 2 skl

A lot of units would take Vaike's def alone over both of Miriel's bonuses, she just isn't a good pairup bot.

Her only options are Avatar or maybe Lissa for extra healing? Although I wouldn't call an extra 2HP of healing worth a deployment slot over. Vaike on the other hand gives a hefty amount of strength, and a little bit of def. This is really nice for helping to raise Stahl: this pushes him into 2HKOing during chapter 2 without needing to mooch kills off of anyone else. Vaike's also helpful with Cordelia and Sully (and to a lesser extent, Sumia) thanks to the boosts he gives them. Nobody really wants to pair with Miriel, on the other hand, since the stats she gives really don't help a lot of units.

If you're actually using them as combat units, Miriel is 2HKOed forever, unless she goes Dark Knight in which case she loses out on staves (goodbye healing and Rescue) but does get a Horse. If she goes Sage she has staves with awful durabilty. Vaike is pretty slow on his own, but gets a lot of skills that build up crit, and has high skill for an axe user too (particularly with the +6 skl boost for a Hero promotion). Pass the guy a Killer Axe and he'll have a decent chance of nailing everything in one shot. He also has Hammer for Generals (which admitedly, Miriel beats him in if they lack 1-2 range, but she doesn't want to take a forged Spear to the face any more than he does) and just raw strength to kill fragile enemies. Miriel hits res but doesn't hit it particularly hard, especially with low magic mt with a lot of the tomes in this game.

Vaike also obviously wins durability and even has Sol to back it up later on (complemented by his high skill, although it shouldn't be relied upon) or Rally Strength against Miriel's Rally Magic. Strength is better for most units, and Miriel's other potential skills are nothing to write home about - with the possible exception of Tomefaire - but that's a bit of a lofty goal.

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But what about miriel's issue in earlygame that I mentioned? Why even bother with her when Its quite painful to get her to level 10. Also, I cringe everytime someone mentions nosferatu ._.. So overrated.

EDIT: Also, Vaike has Sol, Lon'qu support, 1-2 range with massive str and has an actual def growth.

Oh Miriel's earlygame is pretty bad and I won't contest that, but none of what you said about Vaike's durability kicks in until late game either. And no, it's not overrated, it makes you unkillable if you double. Assuming a ORKO it basically ensures like 30 health back at least, and enemies won't be dealing more than that in one hit so its makes you unkillable.

I agree with Vaike > Miriel, but I disagree with the sentiment that it's because Miriel's defences are bad. It's because Miriel starts off so poorly that she just isn't worth it, even though her lategame is much better for solid 1-2 range and better durability while still ORKOing everything, albiet being a second Tharja. But hey, when a unit is that good, why not abuse them?

Second seals also seem pretty common. There are a couple of enemies which drop them, chests with them in and there's bound to be an Anna shop which opens up with one in it. And this is all before chapter 16 when they become buyable anyway.

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