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Why is Frederick so high? Giving him experience early-game hurts your team and S tier because he gives good pair up boosts early on doesn't seem right to me

If he doesn't get early EXP then he drops off pretty fast and falls behind the rest of your team even faster.

I'm just not seeing S tier for him.

Fred always gives good pair up boosts. There's no reason you can't build a support between him and any of the numerous women who would love +6 STR/DEF and more movement.

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Ive used him for all game and he ORKO'd forever in LTC If a unit can do that in LTC, he would probably be better in a normal playthrough. He only really "fell off" in endgame. Just give him a sumia pair up. It's not theory, Ive done it and Horace has done it.

ORKO'ing forever with those growths/bases implies a lot of stat boosters and kill favoritism. If we applied that to a brisk pace tier list, the negative utility would probably bury him alive.
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This isn't, strictly speaking, true. He does fall off eventually, but it takes a very long time and he can skill be an excellent pair-up unit due to the Move +1 and Dual Guard+ so the EXP isn't wasted.

How is Frederick reaching level 15? He falls behind pretty fast because of the growths in this game and once he's behind he won't catch up making any exp given to him pretty much wasted.

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Yeah, there's also that Even if he gets rng screwed to death, he can still be one of the best pair up bots in the game with massive str def and move at BASE.

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Yeah, there's also that Even if he gets rng screwed to death, he can still be one of the best pair up bots in the game with massive str def and move at BASE.

How does good pair up and mediocre combat make him S tier?

Also I disagree with what you said about him doing well in LTC proving he's good. In LTC he gets a great deal more EXP than he normally would.

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You bastard.

In my defense, I like Libra, and this is only on Lunatic mode when I don't intend to use him (he is such a good diversion).

Yeah, there's also that Even if he gets rng screwed to death, he can still be one of the best pair up bots in the game with massive str def and move at BASE.

Second best... Chrom is the greatest Support partner, imo. But still, doesn't really justify S-rank in my opinion. Or a massive injection of resources. If Fred is blasting through promoted enemies, he spent a lot of time at the trough beforehand, I'm just saying. Edited by Interceptor
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How does good pair up and mediocre combat make him S tier?

Also I disagree with what you said about him doing well in LTC proving he's good. In LTC he gets a great deal more EXP than he normally would.

Because he doesnt need any resources to be one of the best pairs ever?

He gives str def and move at base + he can dish out more damage than most dual partners with silver and a wide array of weapon acess. Even if he does fall off, he can still be really useful and efficient. Let's say we're using:

Cordelia

Obviously in her start she doesnt ORKO. Not quite, in Paralogue 3. She's 4 points of str away from achieving ORKOs with her steel lance in paralogue vs the archers and barbarians. Obviously, ORKO'ing the archer on the left side of the map is a must to train Cordelia, lest she be hit out of the sky. Guess who gives those bonuses to her? Frederick gives this str to her and also makes her able to tank a bit. On top of that, he gives her move to aid in the completion of the map + his dual strikes will be really powerful if they proc. This only gets better, as eventually Fred might even get to 20 str def to give +1 more str def and their support rank going up means the bonuses he gives will be better. There's other examples of this, but basically, his massive str def requires no resources and a lot of units (mostly female units) appreciate his str def move pair up without any training.

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Because he doesnt need any resources to be one of the best pairs ever?

He gives str def and move at base + he can dish out more damage than most dual partners with silver and a wide array of weapon acess. Even if he does fall off, he can still be really useful and efficient. Let's say we're using:

Cordelia
Obviously in her start she doesnt ORKO. Not quite, in Paralogue 3. She's 4 points of str away from achieving ORKOs with her steel lance in paralogue vs the archers and barbarians. Obviously, ORKO'ing the archer on the left side of the map is a must to train Cordelia, lest she be hit out of the sky. Guess who gives those bonuses to her? Frederick gives this str to her and also makes her able to tank a bit. On top of that, he gives her move to aid in the completion of the map + his dual strikes will be really powerful if they proc. This only gets better, as eventually Fred might even get to 20 str def to give +1 more str def and their support rank going up means the bonuses he gives will be better. There's other examples of this, but basically, his massive str def requires no resources and a lot of units (mostly female units) appreciate his str def move pair up without any training.


Like I said he has good pair up.. That doesn't make him S.

More damage on dual attacks is a given (he's the Jeigan) but why would he be using the silver lance?

His not requiring resources is nice but it's not game-changing. Edited by bearclaw13
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Frederick never really falls off in my experience, depending on the pairups you give him. He works up his weapon ranks really quickly and can use use virtually any sword/lance/axe in the game. Even if his stats start to peter out a bit, he still has speed tonics, pair up and effective weaponry to lean on, along with stomping earlygame flat. He doesn't need any permanent statboosters, just tonics at some stages (everyone likes tonics, and they're cheap enough so that you can't really hold it against them) and some kills.

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Even if he did require resources like a Speedwing, why would this be a bad thing? Wouldnt he be one of the top priorities for a wing like FE10 Titania and Haar?

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Even if he did require resources like a Speedwing, why would this be a bad thing? Wouldnt he be one of the top priorities for a wing like FE10 Titania and Haar?

That speedwing is after your team has caught up and surpassed him..

And no I don't think he would, Stahl and Nowi are both higher priority AFAIK.

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In theory, yes. In actual practice, however, I think some people would be intimidated away from contributing (yours truly included), and thus, there wouldn't really be much chance for meaningful discussion.

That's what people thought about RD HM for a while. Now our topic here has almost 10,000 posts.

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That speedwing is after your team has caught up and surpassed him..

And no I don't think he would, Stahl and Nowi are both higher priority AFAIK.

How is a team surpassing Fred in Chapter 11 of all places...I guess if you ignore him completely you could make a case, but really? We should be assuming hes being used, at least somewhat. Or are you gonna pull a Snowy and say FE9 Titania is clearly worse than oscar if shes not used at all until Chapter 11?

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Wouldn't Sumia and Sully want it more?

I would assume that they'd prefer either a Javelin (to proc a Dual Attack from Fred/Chrom) or a Iron/Steel lance forge with +2-3 MT. A killer lance in Fred's pocket'd hands wouldn't hurt, Especially when the girls reach B lances and want to snag his Silver from time to time.

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How is a team surpassing Fred in Chapter 11 of all places...I guess if you ignore him completely you could make a case, but really? We should be assuming hes being used, at least somewhat. Or are you gonna pull a Snowy and say FE9 Titania is clearly worse than oscar if shes not used at all until Chapter 11?

Frederick gets less experience than the rest of your team, I've never understood using Jeigans and you're not explaining why he should be used for something other than pair up. Why is someone using Frederick? His bases are horrible (see him bring a Jeigan). His experience gain is horrible (again Jeigan). Once people reach level 15ish they are just as powerful as a level 5 Frederick.

By chapter 11 I would say that your team is a good deep better than Frederick who hasn't received favoritism.

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Posted (edited) · Hidden by Florete, April 30, 2013 - Double
Hidden by Florete, April 30, 2013 - Double

I would assume that they'd prefer either a Javelin (to proc a Dual Attack from Fred/Chrom) or a Iron/Steel lance forge with +2-3 MT. A killer lance in Fred's pocket'd hands wouldn't hurt, Especially when the girls reach B lances and want to snag his Silver from time to time.

I guess that would make sense.

Edit: dang, double post.

Edited by bearclaw13
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Or are you gonna pull a Snowy and say FE9 Titania is clearly worse than oscar if shes not used at all until Chapter 11?

Not to defend snowy or anything, but Titania is in an entirely different situation. She gets a lot of EXP from bosskills (no such advantage in Awakening), and has Knight Ward access plus cheap forges to keep her going for quite a long time.

Frederick doesn't have a comparable advantages. Forges are stupid expensive, there's no way to level him up other than just stuffing kills down his throat by volume, etc.

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How is a team surpassing Fred in Chapter 11 of all places...I guess if you ignore him completely you could make a case, but really? We should be assuming hes being used, at least somewhat. Or are you gonna pull a Snowy and say FE9 Titania is clearly worse than oscar if shes not used at all until Chapter 11?

Okay, what turn does the Speedwing Hero spawn? Because there's the rub - I dunno if we could factor in a speedwing on a reinforcement that might not show up, and the next one isn't until chapter 16.

Edited by Levant Fortner
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Speedwing Hero shows up on either turn 5 or later (I didn't see him on my Turn 4 clear), and no competent army is going to take longer than that. But it seems like SDS wants to include it anyway, so we can probably count it as available.

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Frederick gets less experience than the rest of your team, I've never understood using Jeigans and you're not explaining why he should be used for something other than pair up. Why is someone using Frederick? His bases are horrible (see him bring a Jeigan). His experience gain is horrible (again Jeigan). Once people reach level 15ish they are just as powerful as a level 5 Frederick.

By chapter 11 I would say that your team is a good deep better than Frederick who hasn't received favoritism.

Why is anyone using Avatar and Chrom? Their bases are horrible. By Chapter 11, I would say that Frederick is a good deal better than the rest of the team that hasnt received favoritism.

Not to defend snowy or anything, but Titania is in an entirely different situation. She gets a lot of EXP from bosskills (no such advantage in Awakening), and has Knight Ward access plus cheap forges to keep her going for quite a long time.

Frederick doesn't have a comparable advantages. Forges are stupid expensive, there's no way to level him up other than just stuffing kills down his throat by volume, etc.

Except Frederick gets more exp than the past "Jeigans" with each random enemy kill, not bosses this time around. And guess what? Theres no way to level up other units without stuffing kills down their throat by volume, etc.

Okay, what turn does the Speedwing Hero spawn? Because there's the rub - I dunno if we could factor in a speedwing on a reinforcement that might not show up, and the next one isn't until chapter 16.

We're not arguing LTC in this tier list though, you should all make up your mind.

Speedwing Hero shows up on either turn 5 or later (I didn't see him on my Turn 4 clear), and no competent army is going to take longer than that. But it seems like SDS wants to include it anyway, so we can probably count it as available.

Edited by Peekayell
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Speedwing Hero shows up on either turn 5 or later (I didn't see him on my Turn 4 clear), and no competent army is going to take longer than that. But it seems like SDS wants to include it anyway, so we can probably count it as available.

Turn 5? Good enough for me to consider it available.

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Except Frederick gets more exp than the past "Jeigans" with each random enemy kill, not bosses this time around. And guess what? Theres no way to level up other units without stuffing kills down their throat by volume, etc.

It's still a horrible investment. Other units get more stat-ups from kills than Frederick by something like a factor of 2-4x, depending. The EXP floor doesn't really help you when people are dinging every few kills.

We're not arguing LTC in this tier list though, you should all make up your mind.

Just as an addendum to what I posted, it's possible that the Hero shows up earlier than Turn 5. I just remembered that reinforcements stop coming in once Gangrel dies, and I pretty much went right for him.
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