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How am I supposed to train Lucy? My Lucies tend to arrive at lvl 10 with something resembling these bases:

HP: 31-32

Str: 12

Skill: 15

Spd: 12

Luck: whocares

Def: 10

Res: 3-4

Mother: Generic maiden

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I paired The Avatar with Sumia, I didn't use Sully, I killed-off Maribelle and I couldn't get Olivia to marry him in time.

...Yeah.

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You do that often? Be a use your post implies that you do with the word "tends".

Anyway, considering Lucina inherits stats from anyone not named Maiden, as well as an extra skill, your best bet seriously is to run a file where you marry Chrom to a recruited lady, and not maiden.

Edit- wait, all Olivia needs to do is dance for Chrom twice in her joining chapter, if your circumstances are true.

Edited by Elieson
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You do that often? Be a use your post implies that you do with the word "tends".

Anyway, considering Lucina inherits stats from anyone not named Maiden, as well as an extra skill, your best bet seriously is to run a file where you marry Chrom to a recruited lady, and not maiden.

Edit- wait, all Olivia needs to do is dance for Chrom twice in her joining chapter, if your circumstances are true.

No, I haven't finished my first run yet (I'm on Ch.18, she's not terrible, but certainly below most of my other characters taking away DLC Matthew and Moulder). The other run is a draft, and I'm on Ch.16 in that one.

...Wait, I thought you had to have them pair up, rather than having her Dance for him. Well...it would've cost me a turn to do so, anyway.

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Uh...is Cherche maybe going over Vaike out of the question or no?

It doesn't seem unreasonable to me. Cherche can be useful as a solid filler with no effort. She can ORKO Generals with a Hammer throughout the Valm arc (with 7-8 mov and flight). I'd argue that this provides more utility than Vaike's early-game pair-up boosts.

And as you note, it's harder to seriously train Vaike than it is Cherche. Hero Vaike might have superior potential, though. I find that Cherche has Spd issues even with a +Spd support.

Edit: Nowi has been overhyped, but she is a solid tank. I think she could move up to right below Tharja. Gregor is difficult to use as anything but a pair-up bot - but he's a darn good pair-up bot! I think he's fine where he is (between Gaius and Vaike).

Edited by aku chi
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It doesn't seem unreasonable to me. Cherche can be useful as a solid filler with no effort. She can ORKO Generals with a Hammer throughout the Valm arc (with 7-8 mov and flight). I'd argue that this provides more utility than Vaike's early-game pair-up boosts.

And as you note, it's harder to seriously train Vaike than it is Cherche. Hero Vaike might have superior potential, though. I find that Cherche has Spd issues even with a +Spd support.

If we're accurate, her 50% SPD growth is reliable, but not too much. She's a good candidate for the speedwings, IMO, which would help her out quite a bit.

Hero!Vaike has better potential how? I haven't used Vaike longterm before, but what advantages would he bring to the table over Cherche?

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If we're accurate, her 50% SPD growth is reliable, but not too much. She's a good candidate for the speedwings, IMO, which would help her out quite a bit.

Hero!Vaike has better potential how? I haven't used Vaike longterm before, but what advantages would he bring to the table over Cherche?

I've never found her that useful but I can definitely see her over Vaike.

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I've never found her that useful but I can definitely see her over Vaike.

That hammer she has in her joining chapter makes her quite the help, since a good number of the enemies in Chapter 12 are armored units. Pairing someone with her that gives good SPD (DEF maybe if you want her to be nearly indestructible...actually, you might want her to gain exrtra DEF, too.) helps her out, as well (Avatar, Stahl, and Frederick provide the SPD and DEF she appreciates. Probably others, too.). The only issues she has in the chapter are against the two bow knights, which can be taken out easily with your other units. If all goes well and she gains lucky SPD props, she'll never really slow down. Swordbreaker is amazing, too.

Now Vaike...he may have his advantages, but I just don't find his earlygame too good. STR in Pair Ups helps, though, and apparently Hero!Vaike is great, but I just feel Cherche offers more utility, with her being perhaps the most durable flier in the game.

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Hero!Vaike has better potential how? I haven't used Vaike longterm before, but what advantages would he bring to the table over Cherche?

I actually haven't trained Vaike either, so this is theory-crafting, but Hero Vaike will have Sol, enough Spd to double, enough Atk to 2HKO (potentially with 1-2 range weapons) and solid physical durability. He just needs to stay away from magic users (especially fast magic users like Valkyries).

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Vaike turned out amazing for me on Hard. A Cordelia support and a speedwing help patch up his speed quite nicely, letting one-round a bunch of things as a Berserker. Although, I did made him go Hero to grab Sol.

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Cherche needs to get a lot of levels quickly or an insta-promotion to keep up with the now promoted units you have on your team. She needs to be afraid of the Silver Bow dudes and promoted mages that are abundant in that part of the game and she won't have any support built up. If you promote her instantly her non-pair up usefulness will quickly wane. If not, she is going to be pretty much on eggshells trying to survive. She also is competing for EXP with whatever you did with Morgan and Lucina just a few chapters later, and they have far better returns.

Vaike does fine if you promote him, and 10 chapters of good pair-up boosts if you don't shouldn't be dismissed so easily. Sol is, as always, one of the best skills in the game and Vaike's skill growth is stupidly high for an axe user so he can make good use of it.

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I paired The Avatar with Sumia, I didn't use Sully, I killed-off Maribelle and I couldn't get Olivia to marry him in time.

...Yeah.

Even if Olivia had married him, Olivia has shitty stats and no good skills. There's a reason why Olivia!Lucina is mouldering at the bottom of B Tier.

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Cherche needs to get a lot of levels quickly or an insta-promotion to keep up with the now promoted units you have on your team. She needs to be afraid of the Silver Bow dudes and promoted mages that are abundant in that part of the game and she won't have any support built up. If you promote her instantly her non-pair up usefulness will quickly wane. If not, she is going to be pretty much on eggshells trying to survive. She also is competing for EXP with whatever you did with Morgan and Lucina just a few chapters later, and they have far better returns.

Vaike does fine if you promote him, and 10 chapters of good pair-up boosts if you don't shouldn't be dismissed so easily. Sol is, as always, one of the best skills in the game and Vaike's skill growth is stupidly high for an axe user so he can make good use of it.

Chapter 12 only has 2 Bow Knights, no magic users. Easy training.

Chapter 13 does have Snipers, but its a super short map and she can still get some kills if you know how to play.

Chapter 14 has mages here and there, but the force is mainly armors, cavalier, pegasus with a few generals and Great Knights. If youre 1 turning, she can stilll get a kill.. Otherwise, you are looking at easy hammer kills for her again.

Chapter 15 has mages here and there, but completely avoidable if you know how to play, lots of armors to hammer and she can aid with visiting villages if youre into that, of course, she should be a griffon rider a long time ago.

Any paralogue of children you have: Thats a point in her favor, she joins before you can get morgan kjelle etc. Can get lots of exp off of those too.

Chapter 16 the boss can be hammered. The map favors fliers despite there being bow wielding enemies. There s something called flying up and switching out your flier.

Chapter 17 is the map where I guess she could have problems, but even then, she would be invaluable for getting the boots chests with deliverer or aiding in the clear in other ways.

Chapter 18 is an easy map, I guess the matchups in this chapter arent in her favor. Though she can ferry some other unit with deliverer.

Chapter 19 this one is like whatever.

Chapter 20 theres generals to be hammered again, she should be able to take care of herself by now. Some bows and rexcaliburs that are easily avoided, big deal.

Chapter 21 I concede it. This one is a bit annoying to fliers.

Chapter 22 Can fly up to Aversa to help KO her.

Chapter 23 Avoid the bows by killing the assasins and shes fine. Honestly its not that difficult. Lots of good matchups here aside from assasins and magic users with assasins being more prevalent.

Chapter 24 A map that favors fliers. Doesnt need explanation. Hammer is insanely useful here vs GKs

Chapter 25 Flight is favored once again. Can aid in a 1 turn clear with Deliverer.

Endgame whatever This is lucina and chrom's show.

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It isn't a question of whether she is usable, she clearly is. The question is whether or not she is worth using in the long run more than Vaike is. While her growths are good and her starting stats are generally better than a level 12 Vaike, her starting HP is awful and she has the same weakness to magic that he does while having no supports built up by that point to help her. If you do raise her she will end up better than Vaike due to her better bases and class (minus Sol) while having more or less the same growths, but she comes late and at the very least you need to check enemy attack ranges with her at a time when most of your army is going into "Move as far as you can with a 1-2 range weapon and a pair-up bot" mode.

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I find it hard to put Cherche up there above Vaike without more emphasis on what she can do in the later chapters to help out greatly. Purely combat wise, if you were using Vaike, he'll be about the same as Cherche or better depending upon how much time he was given. So, his early game contributions are weights to consider while mid and late game combat will rather comparable. Her having Hammer at join doesn't mean anything. Trade it to Vaike turn one, then you have the same armor crusher.

I am not sure how useful her and flying would be later in the game. By this late in the game, she is no longer a unique utility with flying. You have plenty of other people who could have re classed earlier and achieved flying. However, having the same weapon rank would take longer to overcome.

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It isn't a question of whether she is usable, she clearly is. The question is whether or not she is worth using in the long run more than Vaike is. While her growths are good and her starting stats are generally better than a level 12 Vaike, her starting HP is awful and she has the same weakness to magic that he does while having no supports built up by that point to help her. If you do raise her she will end up better than Vaike due to her better bases and class (minus Sol) while having more or less the same growths, but she comes late and at the very least you need to check enemy attack ranges with her at a time when most of your army is going into "Move as far as you can with a 1-2 range weapon and a pair-up bot" mode.

Hey guess what? Most units in A tier have awful base HP. And you cant really count that you have to think to use her, against her. She's the bulkiest (concrete) flier in the game, with a great def base and a 50% (if the site is to be trusted which I think it can be because Ive used her a lot and this is a trend) def growth and 100% hp growth. She'll quickly become a powerhouse, once she gets deliverer, she can do something Vaike can't: move farther than him by 4 tiles each turn. And theyll be really similar. Idk how many levels Vaike can even get before her jointime if half the time hes being used for his pair up bonuses.

I find it hard to put Cherche up there above Vaike without more emphasis on what she can do in the later chapters to help out greatly. Purely combat wise, if you were using Vaike, he'll be about the same as Cherche or better depending upon how much time he was given. So, his early game contributions are weights to consider while mid and late game combat will rather comparable. Her having Hammer at join doesn't mean anything. Trade it to Vaike turn one, then you have the same armor crusher.

I am not sure how useful her and flying would be later in the game. By this late in the game, she is no longer a unique utility with flying. You have plenty of other people who could have re classed earlier and achieved flying. However, having the same weapon rank would take longer to overcome.

She can move 4 tiles farther than him every turn and have around the same general bulk (with her having the edge because of vaike's base def) and offense. She has flight with great durability and offense later on. Like I said, she comes at a time when its really easy to train her because kid paralogues start popping up. I guess her problem is she wants a support partner, but she has Gaius, who is almost never taken by anyone else, to give her spd and move.

Edited by Peekayell
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I think that in order to answer this we need to decide exactly what level Vaike is achieving by her jointime. Also, just because a lot of better units that join earlier have low HP doesn't mean it isn't a problem for her considering her class.

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Why is Tiki above Kellam?

Kellam's pair up boosts are a godsend for low defense characters and he has great attack, he's a great supporter.

Tiki joins really late and while she is good then I'm not seeing her contributions as bring better than what Kellam does.

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Why is Tiki above Kellam?

Kellam's pair up boosts are a godsend for low defense characters and he has great attack, he's a great supporter.

Tiki joins really late and while she is good then I'm not seeing her contributions as bring better than what Kellam does.

Tiki owns for her entire existence

Kellam only serves as a pairup bot for earlygame

at least I think that's what the logic is

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Tiki owns for her entire existence

Kellam only serves as a pairup bot for earlygame

at least I think that's what the logic is

Kellam can go to level ten promote and give seven to nine defense to anyone for the rest of the game... that's insane.

I like Tiki and she does do really well while she's around but I'm thinking other units will have her outclassed by her joining time

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Kellam can go to level ten promote and give seven to nine defense to anyone for the rest of the game... that's insane.

I like Tiki and she does do really well while she's around but I'm thinking other units will have her outclassed by her joining time

Problem is actually getting Kellam to level 10. He can't kill anything and his exp gain as a partner is poor.

Tiki is pretty damn tanky when she shows up. She can pretty much solo her starting chapter according to various sources, she has good 2-range damage and very high defensive growths. It doesn't take her too long to eclipse Kellam in terms of tankiness because she is also tanky against magic damage. She also has much better movement. Unlike Kellam, she is also a viable partner for Robin. Nowi can potentially become a Wyvern Rider, an excellent class, while Kellam's reclass options are dire. So I think that Nowi a tier above Kellam is pretty justified.

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