FE: Awakening Hard Mode Tier List

[Zkirsche]

Being unkillable because you barely take damage >>> being mostly unkillable because you can heal it off except when you miss or against high res units. One is reliable, one is not. That's a tier difference if I ever saw one.

She still deals significant damage agianst a high res unit to stay alive and it's not like Tharja can't take a hit or two anyway. If 3HKO'd, in order for Tharja to die she has to miss like 5 times in succession as even the high res units give her enough HP to survive if hit. The chance that Tharja misses 5 times is so ridiculously small that it isn't even worth considering, especially with skill and/or luck tonics.

[Da Bear]

I just noticed that Avatar!Lucina is above Chrom... who's idea was that?

And why hasn't anyone acknowledged that Stahl should go to S?

[Sasori]

I wouldn't be against Ricken moving up either. 5 base speed is massive fail, but not the crippling flaw everyone makes it out to be and he can use his Gregor support to salvage it somewhat. Gregor wouldn't mind the defence boost that dark knight Ricken gives him either so its not a one way deal.

I hear everyone say that he has a bad jointime, but I did't really notice it in my hard playtrough. He still hits resistance from 2 range and his elwind tome can 2 round all the wyverns if I recall correctly, so he isn't being a burden. After his promotion to dark knight his durability improves and he can hit quite hard against the many knights, generals and great knights the Valm chapters keeps trowing into your face.

I'm not saying that Ricken is a good unit, but he's a pretty decent mage and in my opinion at least better then Donny. Donny does turn out great when he gets out of his villager class, but I don't think its worth the effort since Donny is just horrible when he comes in and spends most of his time before promotion unable to finish of enemies unless they have less then 10 hp.

I'm not really all that experienced with tier list so I could be wrong on this one.

[Kitoari]

In my playlog Frederick took 0 damage from every enemy in the chapter with the exception of the boss and the Silver Paladins, and ORKO'd all unpromoted enemy types. There aren't even any axes in the chapter for there to be a hammer.

*shrug*

Maybe my Freddies are just getting RNG screwed or something.

Also RE Tharja: I remember seeing 70% hit or so on the enemies in her join chapter with Elthunder, which is actually more accurate than Nos. Tharja's tanking is pretty shaky.

Edited May 5, 2013 by Kitoari

[MercuryHg34]

I will reserve my opinion of Ricken for now, but I will say that he is doing pretty well in my current playlog. He has always been durable, and with enough investment in speed (or being speed blessed in my case) he can certainly become a potent mage and then a dark knight if you already have enough healers on your team.

[Blademaster!]

@Kirsche

Why Nowi > Tharja.

1. Both can pretty much only tank while in specific classes (Manakete and Sorcerer/Dark Mage), and Nowi has two advatanges over Tharja: 1. A higher exp gain and 2. more concrete durability (Tharja's small chance may be "negligible", but it still exists, and Nowi's doesn't, thus, it is worse than Nowi's).

2. Tharja needs Nosferatu to tank, and that doesn't become buyable until chapter 13 has been cleared. Nowi has to wait for chapter 12 to buy dragonstones, but has the advatange of having 80 more uses of her tanking weapon when compared to Tharja, allowing her more opportunites to tank enemies and help chapter completion before Tharja can have access to multiple Nosferatus, most noticably in chapters 11 and 12 and Paralogue4.

3. Nowi has the additional option of reclassing into flying classes, one of which gives her access to deliverer and instant reclass ability back into Manakete which allows her also to have more mov in her base tank class as well.

Essentially, they both do the same thing, but Nowi does it better and has a few more opportunities to do so. As for Tharja, from my experience, she isn't strong enough to tank as well.

[aku chi]

So, if I can boil down thoughts on the list a bit, here are the changes that I'd like to see happen.

1. Nowi to bottom of A. This won't be a landing spot, but she is pretty much insane with that Gregor support, and her main issue can be patched up easily.
2. Stahl to bottom of S. His durability makes him the best candidate on early maps to simply charge forward and soften up enemies. With a Kellam support his durability is insane, he ORKOs with a dual strike, and if the doesn't kill, he leaves plenty of cleanup for the rest of the team. He has great support bonuses in either of his promotions, and if he can pick up a speed support like Cordelia he can become an amazing offensive force as well.
3. Sumia and Cordelia... not going anywhere. Sumia has a serious problem with her support list- the only good one is Sumia x Frederick, which is quite good but hits a serious wall at some point, and basically has her as a glorified support bot for someone whose future prospects are shaky at best. It's a good pair up that benefits them both, but the lack of versatility just hurts her for me. Lon'qu has a lot of useful pair up possibilities, notably Sully, Panne, Cherche, or even Nowi, He also has a Vaike support he can lean on until either Panne or Cherche shows up, or he can just buddy up with Kellam for the huge Defense boost. He provides more benefit to more characters, and has a better shot later game, both as a pocket character (armorslayer/wyrmslayer for effective bonuses, or even bows if he goes assassin) and as a straight up offensive point. As an aside, I also disagree with either Sumia or Cordelia being above Anna too.
4. Gaius should move up. His start is pretty awful, but he has an amazing support (+Spe, +Mv? Yes please) and like Lon'qu, he has a great support roster that not only hugely benefits him, but that he also gives a significant boost to. It feels really odd to have him below Gregor, especially since he shows up at the same time as Panne, with arguably better support bonuses, and the utility of opening chests. Attaching Locktouch to a powerful offensive unit seems useful for chapters with annoying to reach chests like Ch12 (i think? whichever one has Gangrel), or Paralogue 4.
5. I can see Cherche > Vaike. Cherche has way more support options to deal with her issues (Lon'qu, Gregor, Gaius, etc), and Vaike's shitty start makes it really hard for him to get off the ground.

Anything else?

e: If Anna can get to 10 (or even 15 for Acrobat) and then reclass to Sage (Staves) or Dark Knight (mount + horses + def), she becomes a serious offensive powerhouse. That tends to be around the time Second Seals are buyable, and before then she still has Levin Swords or just regular old steel / slayers,

1. Which main issue? Her crappy Spd, her mediocre Atk, or her mediocre starting durability? A Gregor support helps Nowi a ton, but it doesn't solve all her problems. His +Spd prevents her from being doubled and it lets her double slower units, but Nowi cannot reliably double faster units (Heroes, Tricksters, Assassins, Swordmasters, Falcon Knights, Dark Fliers, Valkyries - borderline on Berserkers, Paladins, and Griffin Riders). Gregor's +Def helps Nowi survive enemy phase during her training period and makes her close to invulnerable to physical attacks once she's in her groove. Gregor doesn't directly help Nowi's offense, but he can occasionally chip in to finish off enemies Nowi doesn't quite 2HKO. The Armorslayer gives Nowi some additional help against the tough-to-2HKO Generals and Great Knights.

2. No opinion. Stahl's in about the right position, IMO.

3. Baffling. Concerning permanent support partners, Lon'qu comes up short. Cherche is his best option, but she joins late. Sully doesn't need much Spd to double unless she goes Wyvern Rider. Even so, she prefers Avatar, Chrom, Stahl, Gregor, or Gaius. Wyvern Rider Panne doesn't need that much Spd to double, and would prefer a support with Avatar, Gregor, Gaius, or Stahl. Nowi prefers Gregor or Gaius. There are more males that prefer a Pegasus Knight support (which, BTW, gives a better bonus than Myrmidon: Res > Lck). Frederick, Stahl, Vaike, and Kellam would all love a Pegasus Knight support and give Str and Def back. Cavalier Chrom works well with Sumia. Henry would love to support Dark Flier Sumia. Ricken, Donnel, and Gregor also need Spd but don't give much back to Cordelia.

And as primary units, the Pegasus Knights are clearly better. +2 mov, flight (has its drawbacks, but is a net positive), and 1-2 range. Lon'qu needs to drop.

4. Maybe Gregor should move down, instead? I haven't tried to use Gregor as a primary unit but it seems a challenge.

6. Sage Anna isn't great, because she has to work her way out of E tomes. Anna is an underwhelming combat unit in my experience, but she has a lot of utility.

[Zkirsche]

*shrug*

Maybe my Freddies are just getting RNG screwed or something.

Also RE Tharja: I remember seeing 70% hit or so on the enemies in her join chapter with Elthunder, which is actually more accurate than Nos. Tharja's tanking is pretty shaky.

Good thing we don't tank with her until after we actually get nosferato in chapter 13, when she has access to skill and luck tonics. And again, 5 consecutive misses at 25% each, so forgive me for not being overly horrified of her 0.2% chance of death when she just joins. With a support she'll be fine. We can even forge some +hit on her tomes if you really like, we really REALLY do not struggle for money in this game.

Why Nowi > Tharja.

I agree with Nowi > Tharja, go back and read what I said again and you'll see that.

1. A higher exp gain

Not an advantage, Tharja is good enough that she doesn't need to grow that fast. I have already conceded point 2. I'll get to the rest later, but the start makes it seem like you haven't read my argument at all.

Edit:

2. Tharja needs Nosferatu to tank, and that doesn't become buyable until chapter 13 has been cleared. Nowi has to wait for chapter 12 to buy dragonstones, but has the advatange of having 80 more uses of her tanking weapon when compared to Tharja, allowing her more opportunites to tank enemies and help chapter completion before Tharja can have access to multiple Nosferatus, most noticably in chapters 11 and 12 and Paralogue4.

Nowi's uber defence has yet to kick in here and her offense is still poor. I dare say she can't even tank because she'll simply be doubled, but I can't recall Gregor's support bonus so I don't know how likely it is taht she'll be doubled. Either way, it's not a long wait and Tharja becomes very strong after chapter 13 and is still a strong mage pre chapter 13 too.

3. Nowi has the additional option of reclassing into flying classes, one of which gives her access to deliverer and instant reclass ability back into Manakete which allows her also to have more mov in her base tank class as well.

How long will it take for her to reclass, get deliverer, then reclass again? Doesn't sound like it'd be until late. Deliverer is very good though, I will not deny, so depending on when people think she can get it I'm willing to accept the tier gap.

Edited May 5, 2013 by kirsche

[Florete]

Also RE Tharja: I remember seeing 70% hit or so on the enemies in her join chapter with Elthunder, which is actually more accurate than Nos. Tharja's tanking is pretty shaky.

This is only without any support and 70% is on the low end; even alone she'd never go below 70% with Nosferatu, which you're suggesting she would here.

[Da Bear]

I wonder if people would stop ignoring me if I suggested Ricken >> Avatar...

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I wonder if people would stop ignoring me if I suggested Ricken >> Avatar...

No, that'll just make you easier to ignore.

I'd like to wrap up discussion on the points I raised before we move on.

[Da Bear]

No, that'll just make you easier to ignore.

I'd like to wrap up discussion on the points I raised before we move on.

Stahl was one of those of those points..

[SB.]

I really don't agree with your point on the Pegs SDS, aku chi's post is pretty much spot on with why, along with Sumia's support list not exactly being a crippling issue - she has enough to get by with on Chrom, Frederick and Henry.

I'd agree with Stahl rising to S tier, at the expense of Avatar!Lucina. She's good when she's around, yes, but that's when the game's almost half clear, and she isn't like Miledy or Percival who kill everything and never die - her start isn't the best in the world durabilitywise and if she wants to get any form of 1-2 range as Cav, it involves picking up a Bronze Lance that has almost 10MT less than the weapon that she wants to be using constantly. Once Stahl gets a few levels under his belt and a speed pair (hint, Cordelia rocks for this) he's a solid unit, and is pretty much the best user of the early killing edge - no matter if Lon'qu needs it more, Stahl just uses it better. His physical durability is a huge asset, becoming nigh on unkillable at some stages of the game, while still sporting 7 or 8 move. By the time Lucina joins, Stahl is a Paladin with great durability, decent strength and enough speed to double. Not to mention he'll completely eclipse her in weapon ranks and she'll take a while to catch up (not that she needs it in swords mind, but lances are another story.)

I also think Sully could stand to drop, but I'll pursue that more later.

Edited May 5, 2013 by Serious Bananas

[General Horace]

The only real point I think there is massive amounts of disagreement on is Lon'qu over the Pegasus Knights. From what I've seen, nearly everyone has been unanimously in favour of the pegasus knights being higher, and unless someone proves Lon'qu can be something other than a glorified +speed bot, he needs to drop, and fast. Among the five points SDS brought up anyway. I'm not too much of a fan of Gaius raising up because I personally find support bots to be pretty detrimental for the transition into late-midgame as opposed to potential real units, but I've never really used him, so I can't comment too much beyond that.

Edited May 5, 2013 by General Horace

[Da Bear]

The only real point I think there is massive amounts of disagreement on is Lon'qu over the Pegasus Knights. From what I've seen, nearly everyone has been unanimously in favour of the pegasus knights being higher, and unless someone proves Lon'qu can be something other than a glorified +speed bot, he needs to drop, and fast. Among the five points SDS brought up anyway. I'm not too much of a fan of Gaius raising up because I personally find support bots to be pretty detrimental for the transition into late-midgame as opposed to potential real units, but I've never really used him, so I can't comment too much beyond that.

Well when I finally fix my stats you'll see what he looks like if you get extremely blessed..

I'll be honest here I'm fine with Lon'qu's position because he joins with a killing edge giving him offense equal to those on the top of your team.. he's more likely than anyone else to double myrmidons early-game. His avoid is such that his durability is actually among the best on your team and I shouldn't have to explain why sowrds > lances early-game..

All that said he will fall behind the pegs there's no denying it, but by the time he falls behind you have wyvern!Panne and the children are soon too come.. I'm not sure about it all but Lon'qu is more than a glorified speed bot.

[SB.]

Arguing Lon'qu up because he's extremely blessed in your playlog isn't a great argument mate.

Also, Lon'qu using the Killing Edge implies Stahl isn't, and Stahl likes it earlygame before he's up to constantly doubling. Without it, his offense is mediocre. Also, this is an argument between the pegs and Lon'qu, not between the pegs and Panne.

[General Horace]

Well when I finally fix my stats you'll see what he looks like if you get extremely blessed..

I'll be honest here I'm fine with Lon'qu's position because he joins with a killing edge giving him offense equal to those on the top of your team.. he's more likely than anyone else to double myrmidons early-game. His avoid is such that his durability is actually among the best on your team and I shouldn't have to explain why sowrds > lances early-game..

All that said he will fall behind the pegs there's no denying it, but by the time he falls behind you have wyvern!Panne and the children are soon too come.. I'm not sure about it all but Lon'qu is more than a glorified speed bot.

Like SB said, you can't assume that Lon'qu will be extremely blessed every playthrough. The only stat that actually probably helps for him to be blessed in is defence, as he usually doesn't have much issues orko'ing anyway, his durability and no 2 range to counteract this poor durability is his issue. Between chapter 5-9 there are 7 myrmidons, 3 in chapter 5, 2 of which are in the top of the map and he will never reach (and Sumia doubles with WTA anyway...) and 4 in chapter 8, two of which are in front of the boss, which he will also never reach. They're among the least threatening enemy types earlygame anyway, it's not a huge deal. Sure his avoid is pretty good, but he's 2HKO'd, and like you and others have been using in your arguements with Nowi, defence is more sought after than avoid.

[ZemZem]

I agree with Pegs > Lon'qu. Or at least Sumia should go above him. Her earlygame trumps Lon'qu's, and a Frederick support fixes her problems: STR and DEF. She'll 1RKO nearly everything on her joining chapter, and Donnel's paralogue and Chapter 4 give her some nice EXP, as well. Lon'qu, while having good combat, bases, a killing edge, and nice SPD to give in Pair Ups, doesn't really compare with Sumia, IMO.

Also, does Cherche > Vaike still need more time to look into? The moment she exists > his earlygame. Sure, Vaike's STR is pretty great and he's an alright Pair Up partner in that case, but his durability... such shit. His SPD isn't too hot, either, but Pair Ups do exist for him. Still, his durability... ouch.

[SB.]

Vaike's durability isn't bad once he gets leveling, with 50% def growth, massive HP and Sol.

[Da Bear]

Arguing Lon'qu up because he's extremely blessed in your playlog isn't a great argument mate.

Also, Lon'qu using the Killing Edge implies Stahl isn't, and Stahl likes it earlygame before he's up to constantly doubling. Without it, his offense is mediocre. Also, this is an argument between the pegs and Lon'qu, not between the pegs and Panne.

I'm not arguing according to my playlog.. I'm arguing him according to my expierences in using him 15ish times with him never doing anywhere near as well he is in there. I was just saying that he got blessed there..

Here's what I'm seeing he's facing around 40% displayed most of his join chapter (Often less.). His amazing speed will rocket up and he will consistently double everyhting that's not a myrmidon (sometimes even those!) who no one (including the pegs) are doubling, both him and the pegs will start doubling really fast enemies at the same time.

Lon'qu's durability as I already stated is great thanks to avoid, the pegs are way worse off on durability because axes do lots of damage to both but Lon'qu consistently doges while they will be hit by thes enemies more often than they dodge. Avoid +10 gives him better evade everywhere.

Giving Stahl the killing edge could work, I've never tried it so I'll use an assumption by stats. Stahl's lower skill will produce 25% or so crits arren't anywhere near as reliable.. but with Frederick (I did this but giving Stahl Frederick makes Sumia a good deal less durable which hurts her in this argument) and tonics he could be one-shotting enemies. Not sure I'll test it as soon as I can.

I wasn't arguing the pegs vs. Panne I was merely pointing out that Lon'qu is better when Fred and Stahl are your teams badasses while the pegs are better when you're MVPs are people like wyvern!Panne and eventually Morgan. I can understand you taking it wrong because I didn't explain.

Also; @Horace: Saying defense > Avoid is true but using it here assumes that Sumia and Cordelia have good defense which means you're almost definetly assumig Frederick for Sumia, as was already covered in the Nowi argument by someone else you can't assume someone geting the same pairing every time.

Edited May 5, 2013 by bearclaw13

[SB.]

Sumia is doubling Myrmidons. She comes earlier with a lower base level and a higher speed growth. And why are you arguing Lon'qu above them when Sumia is deprived of rescources - Frederick, or Vaike. In fact, Vaike pair gives Sumia identical durability to that of base Lon'qu,

[The Fir Coat]

I agree with Pegs > Lon'qu. Or at least Sumia should go above him. Her earlygame trumps Lon'qu's, and a Frederick support fixes her problems: STR and DEF. She'll 1RKO nearly everything on her joining chapter, and Donnel's paralogue and Chapter 4 give her some nice EXP, as well. Lon'qu, while having good combat, bases, a killing edge, and nice SPD to give in Pair Ups, doesn't really compare with Sumia, IMO.

Also, does Cherche > Vaike still need more time to look into? The moment she exists > his earlygame. Sure, Vaike's STR is pretty great and he's an alright Pair Up partner in that case, but his durability... such shit. His SPD isn't too hot, either, but Pair Ups do exist for him. Still, his durability... ouch.

Has he been screwed for you repeatedly? His durability is better than a lot of characters higher than him.

[Da Bear]

Has he been screwed for you repeatedly? His durability is better than a lot of characters higher than him.

Yes. He has been horribly screwed for me and still had several uses.

I just realised that this question wasn't directed at me... hope it helped anyway.

Sumia is doubling Myrmidons. She comes earlier with a lower base level and a higher speed growth. And why are you arguing Lon'qu above them when Sumia is deprived of rescources - Frederick, or Vaike. In fact, Vaike pair gives Sumia identical durability to that of base Lon'qu,

Not with Frederick and when she doesn't have Frederick her durability is pretty fail..

So if we give Sumia someone she can't support she's as good and Lon'qu without pairs? That seems to be what the latter half of your post is implying and I'm wondering how that makes sense. If we give Sumia Vaike or Fred why not give Lon'qu Kellam? Kellam!Lon'qu has better durability both tanking-wise and dodging-wise than Fred or Vaike!Sumia.

Also my problem wth Vaike!Sumia = Lon'qu is because in my experience (and this is at bases so personal expierence matters a little..) she would be better at that point.

Edited May 5, 2013 by bearclaw13

[ZemZem]

I didn't know he had a good DEF growth, haha. Whenever I used him temporarily, he doesn't gain DEF much (in fact, the vast majority of his levels aren't so good for me).

As I said, I'm gonna try using him the next time around. He'll be paired with Lissa, and I think that'll make a good Owain.

Edited May 5, 2013 by Zeem

[General Horace]

50% isn't always that solid when his base is as low as it is. Look at something like Nowi's/Stahl's speed, its a similar scenerio.