Jump to content

FE: Awakening Hard Mode Tier List


Recommended Posts

If we are tiering certain kids, are we tiering their dads as potentials too?

Meaning: is Gregor tiered differently as Gregor, Swell Sword & Nah's Dad?

Edited by Elieson
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 1.8k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

On kid tiering:

The farthest I'm willing to go before things get really stupid is to designate tiers for them. For example:

Kid Tier List:

A:

Morgan

Any Avatar's Child

B:

Yarne

Kjelle

Cynthia

C:

Owain

Gerome

Severa

D:

Nah

Noire

Brady

Inigo

This list has the stipulation that "if the kids were in the actual tier list, they'd probably be somewhere in there or below, with exact placement varying based on parents and parents' stats".

Okay, so let's hit Henry vs. Tharja now.

The main thing that I want to hit here is supports. Namely, Tharja doesn't have great ones. Her best supports are either Libra (patching up weak points, like her mediocre Defense and godawful Luck) or one of the few very sought-after speed supports (Gaius, Lon'qu, and Gregor), which do nothing for her mediocre Defense or her damage dealing. Anna is a dead end support that does nothing other than delay a more worthwhile support, so I don't consider her a viable option for any long-term use, as she actually weakens Tharja in the long run by watering down her supports.

Henry, on the other hand, has two potential supports in Dark Flier Sumia and Cordelia, both of which provide him with exactly what he needs to get ahead- Speed, Resistance, and Magic. His Defense, Skill, and Luck are enough for him to do the job, so having a support that targets the exact stats he needs is a godsend. As for it being "greedy" it's no less greedy than taking one of the limited speed supports in the game, especially when you consider that the time Henry shows up is about the time that Frederick is either being dropped or pairing up with Cynthia (depending on his amount of EXP gain and whether or not you have early access to Cynthia). Considering what Henry gets out of the support, it's hard to say that Henry would ever be seriously used without a Dark Flier support. Also, by now Sumia's strength is probably starting to taper off pretty hard (6+45% Strength does not a murder machine make) and we're in Valm, land of hard bodies, so it's not unreasonable to say that she's moving on to greener pastures.

Furthermore, it's not unreasonable to say that when both are doubling, Henry is winning handily. His superior Defense, Luck, and Skill make him much more reliable, and at base it takes about 30 levels for Tharja to "catch up" to Henry's Strength lead, not to mention his weapon rank lead as well. Furthermore, once Henry starts doubling, he usually doesn't stop doubling (except on the things that most characters have trouble doubling, like swordmasters, heroes, and maybe falcon knights). To top it off, Henry has enough of a stat buffer to be able to reliably go Dark Knight, since his higher Defense makes him less reliant on Nosferatu. It's also worth noting that Tharja only has 3 more base Speed than Henry (4 if you scale on base level) and wins the growth by only 5%, which really isn't enough to call it a huge win, especially when Henry has a good claim to an exceptional Speed support.

For the most part, it comes down to Tharja's 4 maps (and what she can get out of them) versus Henry's "pretty much the rest of the game". Considering Tharja isn't exactly a blowout on those four maps, I'd say it's a wash.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh, and for the record, cavaliers in Ch14 basically sit at 12 Speed, which means 17 is all that's needed to double. One rank of Henry x Sumia with Dark Flier and 20 Speed on Sumia gives +6 Speed, which means even at base, Henry only needs the Sumia support and a tonic to double. I believe the Pegasi are 16 speed, so 20 doubles them.

I've got a save sitting on Chapter 15 if we want enemy data.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Half of the game is rather dire. There are a lot of Paralogues after chapter 13, and it happens to be when things are turning on. With Veteran, she's gaining basically an entire level per kill, especially if she Second Seals to something like Cavalier. With Avatar, she's not only got great stats, but a built in pair of amazing supports already at C to help her get off the ground.

I think someone who gains turbo EXP and can almost immediately start outperforming people while having a permanently available better-than-silver sword with slayer on one of the most common and obnoxious lategame enemies (Wyverns) that also doubles as a concoction is deserving of a spot that high.

Lucina without Veteran isn't quite worth it, she's not much better than other kids. But with Veteran and an inbuilt C Avatar / Chrom support, I think she earns a spot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Owain above Severa? You've gotta be kidding me. Lissa blows as a mother, Severa is recruitable earlier and comes in a better class, and with better base stats.

Yarne should go down from the top of B. No way is he the best non-Morgan child. He has no weapon ranks, Panne doesn't even pass down any particularly impressive skills, he's forced to reclass and his only solid reclass option is Barbarian, which is nice but not as good as say, Kjelle, who gets Cavalier and Wyvern Rider. Taguel only gives him Even Rhythm to start off with as well, which is weaker than the skills that most other children get from their starting class.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

SDS you barely addressed anything in my post, you hand waved what the Libra support does even though it means Tharja deals more damage than Henry, and Tharja always has 90+% hit with Elwind so she rarely, if ever, misses (because enemies in chapter 13 still have ~20 avo while Tharja's hit went up by 10 so she actually goes from 90+ to solid 100%) and again, they get KO'd in the same amount of time at the start of the game and Nosferato trivialises the later half so Tharja has no more durability problems than Henry. I fail to see how dealing more damage than someone with the same risk of death (0) makes you worse than them.

And I'm sorry, but if we can ONLY use Henry when noone else wants that speed and res, when so many people love that then Henry needs to be penalised for it, it's a HUGE downside to rely on one/two people to support especially when they are such valued speed supports. And again, Tharja doesn't really care what happens in the long run, because in the long run she ORKOs everything and never dies with just the +3 mag so she really doesn't care. Hell, Anna makes those 90% hit rates into 100% hit rates.

Pegasii are 20 speed. Got stats for everyone until chapter 17. Please address the numbers I presented in my first post because I showed how Tharja's start is actually really good and how she dominates Henry across the board stat wise.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Having a kid that can be fed kills for a map and turn out good isn't that valuable either, especially when they show up in Chapter 16 and 18 respectively (assuming you can beat Gerome's Paralogue immediately). Maybe you should look at the tier list and note that as low as Lissa and Maribelle are, they're still above Donnel.

Donnel needs more than a map of being fed kills and is hardly usable before his re-class; the kids in general don't start great but are serviceable enough and much easier to feed kills to.

Staff use gives diminishing returns much faster than combat use because as the game goes you need fewer staff users but more combatants. Lissa manages to keep her position on being the first staff user at a time when healing can actually be useful in parts; Brady comes when you have at least 4 others and it isn't unlikely to go through entire maps without really needing healing.

Owain doesn't have a good mother, so maybe a re-classed Brady could compare to him, but I have no idea how he can be considered better than Severa or Gerome. It's not even just about him being the last of 5 units who came with staves; they all have significant advantages over him that mean he won't even so much as be as good as them for the time both exist.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Donnel needs more than a map of being fed kills and is hardly usable before his re-class; the kids in general don't start great but are serviceable enough and much easier to feed kills to.

Gerome is not easier to feed kills to. I'm pretty sure the majority of enemies in his paralogue 1-round him without a pair-up partner and some will do it anyway. That's basically the same as what Donnel faces in his starting chapter.

Even if Donnel needs two or three maps of help to get up to par, that's still 10 maps of existing he has over Severa or Cynthia. And what, 15 over Gerome. Characters who also need to be babysat in their starting chapters because they're fighting promoted enemies that wipe the floor with them. And don't even really end up better than Donnel.

Staff use gives diminishing returns much faster than combat use because as the game goes you need fewer staff users but more combatants. Lissa manages to keep her position on being the first staff user at a time when healing can actually be useful in parts; Brady comes when you have at least 4 others and it isn't unlikely to go through entire maps without really needing healing.

If you're telling me that we don't need healing in this game because everyone is so invulnerably unkillable, Brady isn't the only one who needs to go into D tier. What is the point of Tharja or Henry if we "don't need healing"?

Owain doesn't have a good mother, so maybe a re-classed Brady could compare to him, but I have no idea how he can be considered better than Severa or Gerome. It's not even just about him being the last of 5 units who came with staves; they all have significant advantages over him that mean he won't even so much as be as good as them for the time both exist.

And I doubt Gerome is going to be good in his chapters unless you turn his paralogue into a feeding frenzy. He just comes too late. Gerome is definitely a D tier character; I don't think he even deserves to be in the same tier as Say'ri, who has better stats as a Wyvern Rider three chapters earlier.

Brady also has the Rescue staff which is incredibly useful even outside of using it to skip maps.

Edited by Anouleth
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gerome does come particularly late, so I could see him being lower, but Severa and Cynthia can both be recruited pretty fast, even if Cynthia requires Lissa or Cordelia to be married. However, it's worth noting that kids gain much more experience from kills than Donnel and can be promoted/re-classed immediately. Donnel typically gets ~40 experience for kills, less as he grows, and needs 9 levels to go anywhere; this is more than 3 maps, and no child needs that kind of attention. Yeah, he'll turn out better than just about anyone else on the list, but that's only what's keeping him above the few units he's currently above.

Nos-tanking is overrated in Hard mode, but I don't think that should have any particular effect on Tharja or Henry. What matters is if they can kill and live reliably while they're around. I don't see Tharja being where she is "because she can nos-tank." I just find her more reliable than the units below her.

Of course, saying healing isn't needed at all may have been presumptuous of me, but there's basically no situation an efficient player would want to turn to Brady over the other options. If he were actually the best option for the job the moment he came, I'd reconsider, but that is not the situation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The big advantage that Gerome has over the other children is that it's easy as hell to pass Deliverer down to him and with his starting level, he can just promote instantly and give a free +2/+3 move when paired up, depending on whether you promote him to Wyvern Lord or Griffon Rider. The pair up bonuses he gives are pretty good too. Basically he provides free utility with little to no investment.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When I say half the game, I mean half the game. There are 18 chapters before then (counting paralogues), then 13 including endgame. That means you'd need to do 5 paralogues (meaning 3 pairings, plus avatar pairing, plus Tiki) to match the earlier half. So I'd say it's pretty accurate to say half the game.

Lucina's usefulness is also fairly reliant on a Second Seal imo, for the extra move and 1-2 range, and there's a lot of units who would love to have a Second Seal. She's solid, but these flaws hold her back a bit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are three second seals before Lucina, and there are more in the chapters that follow, as well as a couple in the child Paralogues (specifically Morgan, Cynthia, Owain, Nah), as well as one in Chapter 15. They're also buyable after completing Severa, Inigo, or Nah's paralogues, as well as after Chapter 16. By then, they are really not in that short supply, and few characters *need* one. Lucina also happens to be better than any of those characters, with the exception of Panne, so it's hard to say she doesn't earn one. Avatar probably doesn't want one until she's xx/10 since she wants to promote directly into a class like Dark Knight or Dark Flier, so she can wait. After that it's what? Panne and Chrom are the only ones that are really in dire need of them that are close to her, and otherwise we're looking at Miriel and Vaike, or at someone terrible like Donnel.

I think the idea of second seal competition is a bit overboard, only a few characters concretely need them and most of the others are just luxuries that depend on player preference.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The big advantage that Gerome has over the other children is that it's easy as hell to pass Deliverer down to him and with his starting level, he can just promote instantly and give a free +2/+3 move when paired up, depending on whether you promote him to Wyvern Lord or Griffon Rider. The pair up bonuses he gives are pretty good too. Basically he provides free utility with little to no investment.

That's not what Deliverer does. It doesn't "give" +2 movement to your partner, you get +2 move from your partner. And it requires you to be the lead, so you do have to invest into Gerome if you want to make use of Deliverer. This utility is in any case weaker than Brady's, since the mobility advantages that Rescue provides are far greater than Griffon Rider's +1 move. And this is nothing that you don't get much earlier from Kjelle, who has more time to build supports, and has a mother that would actually quite like those boosts. For that matter, we can get it from Frederick, Kellam, Stahl, Sully, and Cherche. As bad as it might be to be a fifth string staffbot, it is even worse to be a seventh string pairupbot.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Now that I've come a bit far in my Hard Mode Casual tier run (at Chapter 14, with Paralogue 1, 2, 3, 4, and 8 cleared, Chrom married Sully), I was able to test Tharja and Henry (gave a Speedwing and Talisman to Henry, and a Skill Book and two Goddess Icons to Tharja, and I gave Libra Support + Skill and Luck Tonics to Tharja for every single map she were in, and a Speed Tonic to Henry for every map he was in, as well as a Resistance Tonic on Paralogue). And I have to say, I think that you want Tharja to be better than Henry, you basically have to get levels on her ASAP, as if their levels are around the same, then Henry just flat out only really needs to pair up with Sumia (preferably promoted to Dark Flier so she can give him both Magic and Speed) and some Speed (through level up or through stat booster items, permanent or otherwise) to have an easier time contributing (and gaining levels) than her. Tharja currently sits at around Lv. 15, while Henry easily got to Lv. 20, so I promoted him to Dark Knight.

As for why Henry got that many levels before I even went to Chapter 14, it's because I went into Paralogue 8 blind (with Tharja and Henry at Lv. 14), and hadn't the slightest knowledge about all those freaking reinforcements that showed up, some of them promoted, and I was going for the chests as well to see what the Paralogue had of loot (which was unimpressive: a Short Spear and a Medium Bullion, I shouldn't have bothered). Henry took the brunt of those reinforcements (since the only other target was Panne, who was an almost newly promoted Wyvern Lord), and soloed almost everyone of them (at the cost of a Nosferatu Tome).

That said, I still have to complete my run.

EDIT: Damn it. Made a mistake about Panne in my post. Corrected it.

Edited by Folt
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The main thing I have to say with Henry and Tharja is that both really want Pair Ups, just like... everyone else.

For Henry, Sumia is probably his best. The only real pick of the day for her is probably Chrom and Fredrick, and they can still A Support with Sumia anyway. That's what is so great about this game - the flexibility that you can have with supports works out nicely.

The one issue I have with Tharja isn't her Skl and Luck (well okay, Luck is kind of a minor point against her but Skill? Seriously? Talk about grasping straws). Actually, it's that her Spd needs a little patchwork like Henry - at least against the faster enemies. This is where problems arise slightly, but that's because most of the Male characters that offer Speed don't want any Magic really. The minor exception is Avatar Male probably. Meanwhile, anyone that's a FalcoKnight or Dark Flier don't mind the +Mag so long as an Arms Scroll is thrown at them.

I realize I'm rambling slightly, but to be honest I can probably agree to the gap closing. Henry at least seems serviceable and they both seem to struggle in about the same areas with Tharja still leading the fray, I would say.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think Sumia and maybe Cordelia should go above Anna.

I'm not certain about Henry and Tharja but Henry definitely needs to be higher. Tharja might go down a little as well.

Edited by bearclaw13
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I disagree. Tharja should be higher, though they shouldn't be that far separate anyway.

Not really, the best strategies for this game typically include sending your mounts straight into the enemies and watching everything, except for your allies, die. Tharja has trouble leveling if you stick to that strategy, although she definitely can level.

Henry meanwhile can make one of those mounts, Sumia, better and even be carried into the middle of the enemies by her to nostank. Tharja doesn't have a support that can do that for her.

Edited by bearclaw13
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...