FE: Awakening Hard Mode Tier List

[General Horace]

I missed that somewhere in the topic, carry on.

[Interceptor]

I missed that somewhere in the topic, carry on.

Relevancy link: here

[Chiki]

Here's the issue here: we all know Nowi can get even S support with Gregor with the right amount of favoritism. A shouldn't be an issue assuming you slow down and take your time, but this goes against the premise of what efficiency is.

But the question is this. Is favoritism worth it? In a game where Mage Ricken gets 4HKOed on Chapter 11, is it worth training Nowi for midgame and lategame? Is her overkill durability necessary?

Why are we slowing down for Nowi and feeding her kills and support points when we don't need her overkill durability? The enemies are not strong enough to warrant it in this mode.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Chiki

[Interceptor]

Here's the issue here: we all know Nowi can get even S support with Gregor with the right amount of favoritism.

Speak for yourself; those of us who aren't completely ignorant of support-building mechanics know that there is a per-chapter cap on the amount that you can earn. It's impossible to get S after four chapters without using things that are banned in this list.

A shouldn't be an issue assuming you slow down and take your time, but this goes against the premise of what efficiency is.

Yes, the hilariously difficult task of facing four combats in one map, which is all that it takes to max your support points.

Why are we slowing down for Nowi and feeding her kills and support points when we don't need her overkill durability? The enemies are not strong enough to warrant it in this mode.

For those playing Chiki Logical Fallacy Bingo™, this may count for "begging the question". Judges would have to make the final call.

[Chiki]

Speak for yourself; those of us who aren't completely ignorant of support-building mechanics know that there is a per-chapter cap on the amount that you can earn. It's impossible to get S after four chapters without using things that are banned in this list.

Uh, you can get one support level per chapter for 4 chapters. I'm not sure on the support mechanics either, but let's change S to A. The point remains.

I'm trying to start a proper debate with you by asking why favoritism given to Nowi is justified: ignoring my argument with some sarcastic remarks isn't going to make you right. Try answering the question instead. Why is it justified?

Edited May 31, 2013 by Chiki

[Interceptor]

Uh, you can get one support level per chapter for 4 chapters.

Not here you can't. No event tile abuse, no Seeds (other than the single Renown one), no Harvest Scramble. If you read the information on the site where you are posting, you'd notice that Vincent discovered that there is a per-map limit on support points. I have never seen NowixGregor go up more than a support rank every two maps, and certainly they had faced enough combat for it.

I'm trying to start a proper debate with you by asking why favoritism given to Nowi is justified: ignoring my argument with some sarcastic remarks isn't going to make you right. Try answering the question instead. Why is it justified?

This is Sumia redux. The question has been asked and answered, but you're apparently incapable of whatever critical thinking is required in order to see it.

EDIT: the tl;dr version, is that the primary benefit of a strong Nowi is that she can basically face unlimited combat in a chapter once she gets established. This is especially useful for Routs, and it allows you to lard up your teams with worse units and still not suffer a drop-off, since you can focus power where Nowi isn't. That's usually the mark of a good unit.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Interceptor

[Chiki]

primary benefit of a strong Nowi is that she can basically face unlimited combat in a chapter once she gets established.

She can't do that in Chapter 8,9, 10, 11 and 12, I'm sure we can agree on that. That is, she can't face unlimited combat.

There are, however, 3 rout chapters after Chapter 11: 15, 23 and 24. So who cares if Nowi can face unlimited combat? It's not worth babying her for 3 chapters. It's not worth sacrificing turns just so you'll have an easier time clearing those chapters.

It's also worth noting that we need to take longer on boss rush chapters to baby Nowi. All those chapters can merely be boss rushed, and Nowi doesn't have much of a chance to gain experience in them in an efficiency run, either. So it's not only unnecessary, it's also impractical.

[Interceptor]

She can't do that in Chapter 8,9, 10, 11 and 12, I'm sure we can agree on that. That is, she can't face unlimited combat.

Not a chance.

• Ch8 - off the table; she's force-deployed, and the clear is worse without her.
• Ch9 - can't do it.
• Paralogue 4 - does a ghetto version of it, since 1-2 range countering everything and self-healing lets her approximate the feat in a corner. Useful since Rout.
• Ch10 - irrelevant, a self-improvement map where she doesn't fight the boss, but she's pretty unkillable especially on a fort.
• Ch11 - basically can kill every mage on the RHS without breaking a sweat.
• Ch12 - if facing 17 guys, which includes two badass promotes and several people with high mt, with a 0% death chance, doesn't count for "basically unlimited combat", you need to get your gauges adjusted.

There are, however, 3 rout chapters after Chapter 11: 15, 23 and 24. So who cares if Nowi can face unlimited combat? It's not worth babying her for 3 chapters. It's not worth sacrificing turns just so you'll have an easier time clearing those chapters.

First of all, you aren't sacrificing turns. Nowi levels up in the flow of normal clears, within the bounds of this tier list's criteria. That's why you look like an ignoramus for using the term "babying", as if she can't even chew her own food.

Secondly, she's still super-useful in non-Rout chapters, just by virtue of the fact that she can kill the hell out of things and never die. First in, last out. Never mind that those actual Rout chapters she's retardedly useful for, since the game's idea of difficulty is to ramp up the effective stats and hurl them at your team. They bounce off of Nowi's 1-2 range kill-zone like Skittles.

It's also worth noting [...]

Not in this thread it isn't. I'd strongly advise that you learn to accept that this isn't an LTC thread, because it's not viewed kindly to argue otherwise. Edited May 31, 2013 by Interceptor

[Constable Reggie]

Don't you have your own tier list? Why do you keep trying to apply "Olwen's playstyle" logic to this one?

Edited May 31, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[Chiki]

• Ch10 - irrelevant, a self-improvement map where she doesn't fight the boss, but she's pretty unkillable especially on a fort.

Lol inefficient. This is a boss rush chapter.

• Ch11 - basically can kill every mage on the RHS without breaking a sweat.

Since when is facing 4-5 mages on the enemy phase unlimited combat?

• Ch12 - if facing 17 guys, which includes two badass promotes and several people with high mt, with a 0% death chance, doesn't count for "basically unlimited combat", you need to get your gauges adjusted.

LOL at this lie. The Paladins have 31 might, the cavaliers have 25, and the knights have 28.

I'll be generous and grant that Nowi will be level 13. An average Nowi at level 13 should have around +6 def and +12 hp. 30 HP and 18 def. B support Gregor gives 2 defense, for a grand total of 30 HP and 22 def with a Tonic. An improvement over Ricken? Certainly. But a valuable one? Well, she gets:

1. 10HKOed by Cavaliers

2. 5HKOed by Knights

3. 4HKOed by Paladins

It's impressive, but it certainly isn't unlimited by any means. She isn't facing "17 guys with a 0% death chance."

First of all, you aren't sacrificing turns. Nowi levels up in the flow of normal clears, within the bounds of this tier list's criteria. That's why you look like an ignoramus for using the term "babying", as if she can't even chew her own food.

Secondly, she's still super-useful in non-Rout chapters, just by virtue of the fact that she can kill the hell out of things and never die. First in, last out. Never mind that those actual Rout chapters she's retardedly useful for, since the game's idea of difficulty is to ramp up the effective stats and hurl them at your team. They bounce off of Nowi's 1-2 range kill-zone like Skittles.

Pretty sure other people here used the term babying, as well.

Anyway, one can 2-3 turn most boss kill chapters without assuming any Rescue uses or Galeforce at all. Nowi isn't getting much action at all really.

Not in this thread it isn't. I'd strongly advise that you learn to accept that this isn't an LTC thread,

No one's assuming this is an LTC thread. Boss rush chapters can be completed more quickly than rout ones. You don't need to fight enemies to complete the chapter efficiently, simply put.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Chiki

[Interceptor]

Since when is facing 4-5 mages on the enemy phase unlimited combat?

... because you can literally ignore the RHS when she's there, because she can handle it by herself? She doesn't have a limiter unless you wanted to tango with Gangrel.

LOL at this lie. The Paladins have 31 might, the cavaliers have 25, and the knights have 28.

I'll be generous and grant that Nowi will be level 13. An average Nowi at level 13 should have around +6 def and +12 hp. 30 HP and 18 def. B support Gregor gives 2 defense, for a grand total of 30 HP and 22 def with a Tonic. An improvement over Ricken? Certainly. But a valuable one? Well, she gets:

1. 10HKOed by Cavaliers

2. 5HKOed by Knights

3. 4HKOed by Paladins

It's impressive, but it certainly isn't unlimited by any means. She isn't facing "17 guys with a 0% death chance."

*sigh*

Nowi at level 15 has about 22 adjusted DEF and about 32 HP. She's leveling up during this onslaught, which can quickly make the bases irrelevant. The biggest badass (of which there is only one) does something like 10 damage at 60% listed hit. Enemies equipped with javelins are basically tinking her, and tinks make up the bulk of what she faces. Steel Lance Knights (there are only five in range, and she probably killed one with no counter) are closer to a 7HKO. Gregor is blocking about 15% of incoming attacks.

In the unlikely event that you are concerned by a death chance that requires significant digits to represent, you can keep her out of range of the Paladin, although you're wasting your time.

Pretty sure other people here used the term babying, as well.

You can all feel free to be wrong; maybe you can make a fan club.

Anyway, one can 2-3 turn most boss kill chapters without assuming any Rescue uses or Galeforce at all. Nowi isn't getting much action at all really.

Based on your breadth of experience using her in efficiency runs, naturally. I find her pretty useful for efficient clears of the later chapters, and she sees a lot of action. Eventually Gregor just becomes a Bow Knight to give her 7 MV (with 8MV reach on the first Pair-up turn).

[Constable Reggie]

Only a percentage of the cavaliers (steel lance/beast killer) have 25 attack, the rest using steel swords (24) or javelins (18). Armors have 27 attack at the most, not 28. Two of the four paladins have 28 attack. Hopefully you can do basic subtaction and see that Nowi's 24 def (or even 23 if you want to keep sandbagging) is practically invincible on the map. She's taking 8 damage at the most, from either the silver sword or silver lance paladin.

LOL at this lie.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[Chiki]

Nowi at level 15 has about 22 adjusted DEF and about 32 HP.

..I assumed level 13 in my calculations. Can you please explain why you think Nowi will be level 15 when we're playing efficiently?

I used the Steel Lance Cavaliers in my calculation of Mage Ricken as well, so I was simply being fair. If we include those guys, Ricken's durability seems to improve as well. Ricken with 17 def gets hit for 1 HP damage by Javelin cavaliers, and so on.

It only makes Nowi's durability seem less impressive.

[Constable Reggie]

A Steel Lance Cavalier has 24 might. Ricken probably has around 29 HP by that time, so Ricken gets 4HKOed by this particular one. A great statistic once you consider the fact that you have many units to use--this isn't an earlygame chapter. You can put Ricken in the frontlines no problem.

Of course you did

Fairness for everyone you know

But of course I'm sure that this is just another one of your myriad of "mistakes", and not lying or sandbagging whatsoever.

Ricken is still 3hkoed by all armors and 4hkoed by all non-javelin mounts.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[Chiki]

Huh? You just quoted my post bolding the part where I say a Steel Lance Cavalier has 24 might, proving that I did indeed use Steel Lance Cavaliers in my calculation. Thanks, I guess?

Anyway, if you wanna be nitpicky, not all armors have Steel Lances. They also have Beast Killers and Javelins.

[Scarlet]

Huh? You just quoted my post bolding the part where I say a Steel Lance Cavalier has 24 might, proving that I did indeed use Steel Lance Cavaliers in my calculation. Thanks, I guess?

I feel the need to point out that you used 24 Atk Steel Lance cavaliers for Ricken, 25 Atk Steel Lance cavaliers for Nowi. Not quite fair, don't you think?

[Chiki]

I feel the need to point out that you used 24 Atk Steel Lance cavaliers for Ricken, 25 Atk Steel Lance cavaliers for Nowi. Not quite fair, don't you think?

Yeah, I looked at the video in that post to get 24 might, and at the Chinese (Japanese?) website Redwall provided for the 25 might one.

I also changed a Steel Lance cavalier's speed from 12 to 13 thanks to Redwall's post.

Anyway, a lot of my calculations can be wrong. There aren't any growth tables and reliable enemy stats around. I'm just trying to get a general idea of Nowi and Ricken's durabilities.

I think the general idea we can get is Ricken is perfectly reliable enough to hold his own in an efficiency run, and Nowi's durability is not really necessary.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Chiki

[Scarlet]

Still, if you're going to compare two units to enemies, it'd make sense to compare them to the same enemies, not to different ones. Otherwise, the comparison is inherently flawed and worthless when trying to compare two units' usefulness.

[Chiki]

Still, if you're going to compare two units to enemies, it'd make sense to compare them to the same enemies, not to different ones. Otherwise, the comparison is inherently flawed and worthless when trying to compare two units' usefulness.

No, I was comparing Ricken and Nowi to the average Steel Lance cavalier. I simply had the wrong source on the average Steel Lance cavalier, and I changed my source upon Redwall's post.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Chiki

[Constable Reggie]

It's blatantly obvious that Olwen's just trying to sandbag the shit out of Nowi and favoring Ricken with numerous false statistics, there's really no reason to listen to him anymore.

[Chiki]

Okay, so I'm trying to sandbag Nowi by changing my source upon finding a better source than a video. Sure, why not, troll.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Chiki

[Da Bear]

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/643003-fire-emblem-awakening/66324978?page=1

Someone has decided that Donnel is amazing... and I can't figure out a good way to answer it...

On topic; Nowi is a lot better than Ricken and a lot easier to train. The comparison isn't making sense to me.

[Redwall]

With 29 HP and 16 Def, as specified previously, Ricken is 4HKOed regardless of whether the Cavs have 24 or 25 Atk. Although it is preferable to use a video over a wiki, there's no way that anyone here is willing to sit through an hour of watching Turtle Emblem for the sake of winning an argument.

[shadykid]

With 29 HP and 16 Def, as specified previously, Ricken is 4HKOed regardless of whether the Cavs have 24 or 25 Atk. Although it is preferable to use a video over a wiki, there's no way that anyone here is willing to sit through an hour of watching Turtle Emblem for the sake of winning an argument.

are you sure about that one

[Constable Reggie]

LOL at this lie. The Paladins have 31 might, the cavaliers have 25, and the knights have 28.

I'll be generous and grant that Nowi will be level 13. An average Nowi at level 13 should have around +6 def and +12 hp. 30 HP and 18 def. B support Gregor gives 2 defense, for a grand total of 30 HP and 22 def with a Tonic. An improvement over Ricken? Certainly. But a valuable one? Well, she gets:

Were those efficient playlogs? If Nowi gets 2 level ups in 8, 2 in 9 (sand), 1 in 10 and 3 in 11, that's around 8 level ups. It seems a little hard for me to believe she can gain 12.

Chapter 9: Sand. Nowi won't be doing much here, if at all. One level up. She also won't be doubling anyone.

Uh, you can get one support level per chapter for 4 chapters.

She can't do that in Chapter 8,9, 10, 11 and 12, I'm sure we can agree on that

Nowi has 5 move and can't double a thing. She has to be babied in order to be useful.

With 2 dual strikes (unreliable) they can ORKO a knight. But that's the only thing they can ORKO there.

All of the following are false, blatant sandbagging, or both.

It's hilariously ironic that you've been CONSTANTLY accusing Interceptor of lying when you've been doing nothing but that.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Constable Reggie