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FE: Awakening Hard Mode Tier List


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The tier gap between Sully and Stahl is really all about their speed. Stahl's speed base is just blah, and his shaky growth doesn't help things. Stahl might win on Str and Def, but if you really care about those Great Knight is an option, and Speed is pretty important in general.

I don't know how I'm dealing with the whole inheritance thing. I don't like it, it's balls to tier, and I think I'll just leave the kids off to the side like I have right now for the most part.

I could see Chrom to A, I suppose, but I want to hold off on that for a bit.

e: I still have to think about how to make a rule like that work, though No Buyable Rescue seems like it would work. I was honestly thinking more of just a gentleman's agreement on the whole Rescue Skipping thing rather than an outright ban. I can just see Anna / Olivia ending up in top tier because of it despite definitely not deserving it, just because they let you not actually play about half the game. I watched that happen with FE11 and it was the dumbest thing.

(p.s.: how is olivia catching up with your 11 movement panne ?_?)

Edited by Seven Deadly Sins
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If you choose for it to happen, it happens. It might take a while, or be difficult, but "it can happen". Is it worth the effort? Probably never, but that doesn't mean it's a foregone conclusion.

That, and I'm making a point.

If you elect for something to happen it happens.

The point of a tier list is basically ranking how good (or bad) that decision is.

If you have the time to explain me the semantics, then take the time to interpret what I say as an actual rating.

It slows you down and makes you baby terrifyingly to a point where it's stupid to just not ditch the guy and use anyone else.

You're also wasting a second seal to even make him a *u*n*i*t*, and as yourself said, no Anna shops.

Those don't come easy until you get to the point you don't want a 1st tier unit anymore.

You may be trying to take a point, but that doesn't mean he's not forgiven of the very bottom of this list. Aptitude, the only thing he can give his kid that others really can't, isn't even worth being above anyone from the first gen. The guy doesn't need to be there after the S-support because he's mostly being detrimental.

At the very least, put Ricken far, far above him.

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Fair at the first point. Stahl is generally impenetrable and then GK -> Swordmaster seems to be a good fit for him generally (Swordmaster for endgame so he can dodge, occasionally double, and still reliably take hits, GK for midgame because nothing will ever kill him) and I think double with someone (like Say'ri lol) is good for his speed stat in general. But once again, I can't speak because I've never had a Sully that hit her averages to compare to.

Quick point I'd like to bring up - I don't like this arguing thing anymore because it becomes too much of a "i want to win this debate"-fest that blocks all logic - as much as Say'ri's supports suck, she's good for her Speed bonuses in the endgame (which I believe are +5 or +6?). I highly doubt Frederick's +4 Defense will make the difference between 2 and 3HKOing, for instance. I think his bonuses are either redundant or kinda unhelpful, although OHKO Strength is good to have. Even still - I don't think +4 Str and +4 Def is what you need in endgame; instead, the speed boosts from Say'ri's (lack of supports aside) is more valuable in that respect due to higher endgame speeds. I just don't agree with Frederick's placement as high as he is because he's so shaky and somewhat unnecessary at some point.

My argument against the Panne vs Rescueskipping guy - it's different because it doesn't always happen. Rescue is always readily available, Panne is merely just most likely to be used. Rescuing requires specific tactics, whereas Panne still allows for lots of flexibility in tactics. Rescue affects placements of many units on the tier list; Panne doesn't directly do so. Huge difference. Just because the turncount is the same doesn't mean the subtleties in details are.

Edited by Lord Raven
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(p.s.: how is olivia catching up with your 11 movement panne ?_?)

Olivia can ride Griffon!Minerva or something. Yay Pair Up. >_>

To elaborate a little, obviously if you can't clear the chapter that turn, don't do it or Olivia will die. It just gives a burst of move on the last turn. For example, for maps ~30 spaces across, have Panne/whoever + Cherche/Olivia move 11 or 10 spaces first turn. Next turn move both, Dance, have Panne finish the boss.

And still, there are maps like C13, C14 which are trivial to do with Olivia + Flier, no Rescue, or you can take the long way and fight through all the enemies. The bigger issue is these maps plus other bosskill maps can be 2-3 turned without Olivia or Rescue with bumrushing the boss with Griffons alone, which is just not that interesting in general. But that's more of a personal opinion, not an point for argument.

Edited by XeKr
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Say'ri actually gives a total of +1 Str, +5 Skl, +7 Spe, +1 Def, +1 Res even without any support levels, and that goes up to +2 Str and +8 Spe fairly quickly if she gets any levels under her belt, since she starts with 18 Str and 27 Spe on hard mode. I can see that being a nice boost to some units, though I also see most units already having their preferred supports. The biggest problem with no support from Say'ri is that you don't just lose the bonus stats. You're also passing up +10 crt/avo/cev, the additional 60% Dual Strike and ~15% Dual Guard, which is a big deal for the offense of some units. You can get something silly like ~90% Dual Strike chance with a S Rank assist, which is crazy, and more than makes up for some of the shortcomings of other units. Frederick's had all game to build up that support rank, and even if he slows down can still hit pretty hard with the Dual Strike. Also, when you factor in supports, it's +6 Str and +6 Def, which cranks up to +7 if he gets to 20 in either of those stats, which isn't impossible to foresee. He also gives +1 Movement if you don't reclass him, which is mighty nice.

Thanks for the assist on the rescueskip thing, though. You said it better than I ever could have.

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Olivia can ride Griffon!Minerva or something. Yay Pair Up. >_>

And still, there are maps like C13, C14 which are trivial to do with Olivia + Flier, no Rescue, or you can take the long way and fight through all the enemies. The bigger issue is these maps plus other bosskill maps can be 2-3 turned without Olivia or Rescue with bumrushing the boss with Griffons alone, which is just not that interesting in general. But that's more of a personal opinion, not an point for argument.

You waste a turn deploying her though, and run into the issue where basically Griffon!Cherche cuts her movement in half in the next turn to benefit from the dance. You're also going to going to want to bodyguard her, incase of enemy attack (or abrupt enemy reinforcements that appear at the end of the player phase act on the enemy phase) so thats another unit wasted.

FE13 maps aren't even that wide to begin with, and i've never felt the overwhelming need to use Olivia to get quickly get my units across.

Edited by PK Gaming
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If you choose to use Donnel, his growths kick in and he stomps everyone, then he passes Aptitude down to a kid and they stomp everyone again.

yep, I saw somebody on youtube who had married Donny to Lissa and passed aptitude to Owain and then married their (F)Robin to Owain and passed aptitude down to Morgan. He had 3 generations of beefed up aptitude units stomping everything, all because of Donny (This was hard mode by the way)

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yep, I saw somebody on youtube who had married Donny to Lissa and passed aptitude to Owain and then married their (F)Robin to Owain and passed aptitude down to Morgan. He had 3 generations of beefed up aptitude units stomping everything, all because of Donny (This was hard mode by the way)

Yeah, I've seen his videos on youtube, they're by omegaevolution IIRC. While he is playing in Hard Mode, he did admit in his earlier video descriptions that he used DLC and grinded a bit to level his Donnel and give Lissa enough levels to give Owain Galeforce and his excellent bases, so his videos can't really be used given the guidelines set by this tier list.

As a side note, as someone who has just bought this game and will soon complete their first Normal/Classic playthrough with small amounts of grinding, I am interested in completing a Hard/Classic playthrough similar to this. Are there any supports that are recommended/generally-accepted to be the best? And what is exactly abusable about Rescue again? I'm kind of confused on that. Thanks in advance

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Yeah, I've seen his videos on youtube, they're by omegaevolution IIRC. While he is playing in Hard Mode, he did admit in his earlier video descriptions that he used DLC and grinded a bit to level his Donnel and give Lissa enough levels to give Owain Galeforce and his excellent bases, so his videos can't really be used given the guidelines set by this tier list.

As a side note, as someone who has just bought this game and will soon complete their first Normal/Classic playthrough with small amounts of grinding, I am interested in completing a Hard/Classic playthrough similar to this. Are there any supports that are recommended/generally-accepted to be the best? And what is exactly abusable about Rescue again? I'm kind of confused on that. Thanks in advance

Look at some drafts - Rescue is the reason they're 60ish turns.
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And what is exactly abusable about Rescue again? I'm kind of confused on that. Thanks in advance

Let 's go back to the first time you fight Walhart (chap 18-19 i think) Open map with lots of paladins, great knights, and a few generals. I start by having Lissa pair up with Cherche(Griffon Rider) Cherche moves up 10 spaces and then switches to Lissa, who then uses rescue on Mariabelle. Mariabelle moves up 8 spaces and uses rescue on *insert powerful boss-killer pair-up team* . Boss-killer walks up to Walhart, pulls off a dual-attack/skill activation proc, and BAM. Chapter finished without entering the enemy phase.

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Look at some drafts - Rescue is the reason they're 60ish turns.

60 turns for a game that is about 35-40 chapters long with Paralogues is silly, and is exactly why rescueskipping is not a thing on this tier list.

So, I just thought of something that I, in my "infinite" wisdom, failed to take into account. Specifically, this game throws a rather inordinate amount of stat boosters at you, the most significant of which comes in Morgan's recruitment chapter. What, if anything, are we doing with these stat boosters, and do they have enough of an impact to make a difference on the list?

(related: it would be nice if we had a list of where items were- if I do that draft playthrough it would be rather trivial for me to assemble that list, but it'd be nice if it was onsite too)

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This is a good tier list.

I'd recommend making the Rescue stance clear in the OP. This may require a little bit of fancy language, to encourage the playstyle that you are looking to measure.. I'd also suggest including stat boosters -- as well as the temporary ones -- since they have the potential to make things interesting in terms of unit match-ups. Boosters plus forges can paper over someone's inherent weaknesses, or enable borderline situations (doubling vs. not doubling, 4HKO'ed vs 3HKOs, etc) that people can argue over. This is better than just clutching pearls over base stats and growths + availability.

Fred may be a bit over-rated for Hard Mode. A gender split for Avatar is a good idea even if it doesn't result in separation. Kid tier is an elegant solution to a sticky problem. Delete Olivia. Ban the word "shaky", it's page 4 and I'm already tired of it.

Edited by Interceptor
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Ah, I see. Yeah, now I understand why Rescue is so abusable for LTC and quick chapter finishes, and how it can complicate the tier list (basically coming down to who can use Rescue and who has enough Mov to make the strategy work).

Anyways, is Anna so high because she's obtainable relatively early, has decent bases, and can replace the utility roles of both Lissa/Maribelle and Gaius? I haven't used her in my Normal playthrough, so I'm just curious what puts her so high.

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Anyways, is Anna so high because she's obtainable relatively early, has decent bases, and can replace the utility roles of both Lissa/Maribelle and Gaius? I haven't used her in my Normal playthrough, so I'm just curious what puts her so high.

That's pretty much it as far as I know. It's also notable that she is one of the better users of the Levin Sword, but it's not a major contributing factor to her tier placement.

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Honestly I'd just flat out ignore items altogether, since they can't really save a unit's inherit flaws as they aren't a OMFG HUGE boost. If they were to be sorted though I'd only count the Speedwing as speed is such a vital stat. We all know you're probably just going to feed them all to Chrom or MU anyway. They're best considered a contingency - good for if a favored item is falling behind, otherwise mostly just "Win Harder" items.

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I'm pretty sure a Seraph Robe could be included in any stat boost package too. Last time I checked, 5HP was kind of a big deal.

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I'd rather have a list of which stat boosters come in which chapters. That way we can think of who uses it best when you obtain them.

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Disclaimer: I haven't reached Olivia's chapter.

But still, the notion of a Dancer doing so poorly on a tier list is just so bizarre. It completely challenges my entire view on playing Fire Emblem! I-I don't know what to believe anymore! Is Wendy now god tier? Can Berserker Etzel solo entire maps? Is Curate->Sniper no longer the path to enlightenment!? I think... I think I will need to lie down to process this.

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I think Kellam is a touch too low. I'm not entirely sure how he fares as a unit, but just the fact that you get a +5 defense support right off the bat means you can literally take him into chapters for JUST that bonus. The +3 strength boost isn't bad either.

I feel like Sully and Stahl are too high. Granted, I didn't use them as much as some units, and perhaps I just got unlucky with their growths, but they just fell behind the rest of my team.

I'd bump Cherche up to A tier. Yeah, her speed is bad and you need to watch out for any mages, but her pure strength and defense are amazing, and she's perfectly usable as soon as you acquire her.

For that matter, I'd put Sumia-Lucina higher too, Parallel Falchion is arguably the best sword in the game with its combination of availability, unbreakability, and sheer power, and she ended up being one of the few units that I could actually count on to reliably evade things.

Chrom I'd also drop a spot or two. He's a good unit, don't get me wrong, but Lucina and the fliers ended up being a lot more useful in my playthrough.

And for that matter, Olivia should go up at least a tier or two, I know that galeforce exists and the enemy phase is insanely important this game, but still, she's a dancer.

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Disclaimer: I took my time in my PT, and did grind a bit, though mostly to get Vaike (whom I wasn't using) x Olivia. (I'll never pair Olivia with a unit I'm not using again.)

That said, Fred should definitely go down. He levels so damn slowly and 10/0 Chrom, Stahl, and Sully are basically identical to him, minus weapon rank, and level way more quickly. He just falls off too quickly. And, as people have said, his pair up, while nice, isn't great. The strength and def bonuses are nice for someone like Sumia, but most of the characters want speed more than str/def from my experiences. I could see him going as low as right below Stahl.

Lon'qu seems too high. He gives nice support bonuses, but he's mediocre otherwise. He should be below at least Lucina (Sully/Sumia).

Libra should be way higher. Very good staff utility, surprisingly good combat given his class, fairly good join time, and being a fairly good father. He's not wtfamazing, but there's really nothing bad about him. His skills aren't great, but healtouch ain't bad, and from my experience, he can actually get renewal at a decent time, meaning his durability is ene less of an issue. He's basically Anna-lite with better durability. I'd say top of B tier.

Ricken should definitely go up. I'd also say Miriel down. Ricken isn't great, but he's not terrible, though that 5 speed is painful. He's like a better Ilyana. Miriel is better, but not that much. She's squishy as hell and her offense isn't that great. She can go dark mage for nosferatu, but that'll take a while and there's better. Top of D tier for Ricken and top of C tier for Miriel. Overall, it's like FE9 Soren vs Ilyana.

Olivia and Henry should definitely go up, too. Henry has some speed issues. He's borderline doubled, but with a speedwing or +speed pair up, he doesn't have to worry. He also has insta-nosferatu and can promote or reclass (though I'm not sure why you would; dark mage is his best choice) right away. He's also quite tanky even without nosferatu. Olivia has some issues, and she's not as good as in something like 6 or 12 where it's all sieze, or even 7 because of reinforcements and enemies OHKOing her, but she's still a dancer and there are a lot of defeat boss chapters.

I could actually see Sully above Chrom. Her stats aren't quite as good, but they're hardly bad, and she has better move for most of the game. She's got good everything, and with a decent pair up, she's great. There, it comes down to move vs slightly better combat.

Also, I'd like to see Flavia and Basilio above Virion. He's around way longer and can potentially go wyvern rider, but he still has to deal with getting to level 10 with crappy bases and good but not amazing growths. Basilio and Flavia are solid from join time and even have a good support with each other. IIRC, Basilio with Flavia gets something absurd like +3 str, +7 skl and speed, +3 luck, +5 def, and +2 res. That puts him at 67 health, 37 strength, 35 skl, 32 spd, 23 luck, 28 def, and 11 res. Those, along with axes, are some nice combat parameters. Flavia does fairly well too. She ends up with 61 health, 32 strength, 35 skill, 33 speed, 27 luck, 31 def, and 14 res. She's not quite as good; their durability is about equal and the +1 speed doesn't make up for the -5 str, but she's still fairly solid. It's also not like they have any competition for that support. And if they somehow get to A support (not likely by any means, but not completely out of the realm of possibility), that's another +1 to str, skl, spd, luck, def, and res. Basically, it comes down to if being mediocre for a long while, along with a shitty start, and then being good for a while, but being around a lot is better than being good and not having to deal with the mediocreness/shittiness.

As for avatar, IMO, it's not worth differentiating between male and female. The only real argument I can see is how important Avatar!Lucina is. Even then, she's still going to be solid with Sumia or Sully as mom. As for attributes, I'd say add a disclaimer to the OP saying something like "Reasonable attributes are assumed, e.g. +hp/mag/spd, -skl/luck/res."

Edited by bottlegnomes
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Olivia's position is fine as it is right now; Dancing is neat, but it's nowhere near as beneficial as it is in other games because of Pair Up. It's great if you need to reposition yourself for some reason, but now that you can do 1-turn pair up/drop, Dancing isn't quite as needed.

That's only the start of her woes. She'll be faced with near certain OHKOs/ORKOs if she ever enters combat, so that limits how she can move. She'll never catch up to mounted units to Dance for them, which is very problematic in large, open maps. If she ever wants to fix that, she either has to take the Boots (which show up in Chapter 17 and have a large cost associated with it), have her paired up with a mount to carry her to the main army (which wastes both the mount's AND her turn), or have someone Rescue Staff her up to the main army (more viable, but still a problem).

Note that her position is based on as if Galeforce doesn't exist, as it's very unlikely anybody sans Sumia and Cordelia will have it, and even then they might only get it lategame.

I could see her go up to the bottom of C tier, if only because she's slightly more viable on indoor stages, but I think you guys are overstating how useful she really is.

---------------------

That said, some minor thoughts:

Frederick can probably stand to move down, probably all the way to bottom of S. His pair up is nearly essential in the beginning, but he starts falling off around Chapter 10.

I'm still unsure about Chrom and Sully's placements. They're great and solid, but both of them can fall prey to Speed issues. It's fixed by Speed Tonics and pairing up with each other, but it's not exactly smooth sailing for them. Chrom is essentially swordlocked until he reclasses to Cavalier, and Sully might find herself with WTD too often if she doesn't use a sword enough (although Discipline helps her out with that). Not exactly -big- concerns, but they're still there. Out of everyone, I think they're the most viable to fall to A tier, but Frederick is a contender as well.

A tier looks fine for the most part. Stahl is a great tank that's unfortunately hampered by Speed issues, while Lon'qu has great offense with terrible defenses. Anna's great, the peg duo have great pair up bonuses but horrible durability, and Lucina is great all around but comes really late.

B tier...Miriel and Vaike are fine. I actually think Libra can rise a slight bit because having some form of staff utility is better than nothing, and it's always good to have another in case Anna can't be everywhere at once. That said, the rest of the tier looks just about right.

The only thing I should add about the C tier is that Say'ri and Olivia could swap places, if only because Say'ri's only saving grace is her pair up bonuses, which isn't really anything spectacular. I'm a bit torn on that though.

Ricken is completely terrible, but I suppose he's only slightly better than Donnel and should probably be above him, or even bottom of D. But that 5 speed in the beginning is really damning, and you really don't have the time or the resources to baby him out of his really shitty start.

Edited by Sol Hiryu
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Speaking of Ricken, why is he so far below Virion? They have the same base speed, and only 10% difference in growth. That's all of 1 point per 10 levels. Figure Virion gets two levels (which seems generous given bows), that puts Virion at:

HP 20.6, Str 7, Skl 12.4, Spd 6.2, Luck 7.8, Def 6.7, Res 1.6

to Ricken's:

HP 20, Mag 10, Skl 6, Spd 5, Luck 10, Def 6, Res 3

Their durability is pretty much identical, with a slight but not noticeable edge to Ricken because of better res. Ricken can have as much as 16 attack attacking res (don't remember if elthunder is available), but he won't be lower than 13 (I don't see any reason why he can't get a thunder, unless they're not buyable, which IIRC they are). Virion has, at best, 13 attacking def. That one point of speed isn't making a shit-lick of difference. Add on that Ricken can actually counter, tough it's not a good idea, and I really can't see Virion being better until he can class swap to wyvern rider, which'd put him at:

HP 28.4, Str 13.4, Skl 14.6, Spd 8.8, Luck 10.2, Def 11.7, Res 3.4

Say Ricken is level 10 as well, which seems low considering he can actually counter occasionally, he would have:

HP 26.95, Mag 13.85, Skl 9.5, Spd 8.5, Luck 14.55, Def 8.45, Res 5.45

Now Virion wins move (duh) and durability by a long shot, but Ricken still wins offense with 17-24 attack against res versus Virion's 17 against defense. However, Ricken could promote to dark knight giving him:

HP 35.95, Mag 14.85, Skl 12.5, Spd 9.5, Luck 14.55, Def 15.45, Res 7.45

In this case, Ricken still isn't top tier material, but he shitstomps Virion in combat. The only things Virion has are faster leveling (which I'm really not sure how much that matters) and flight. Alternately, Ricken could go sage for staff use and:

HP 30.95, Mag 16.85, Skl 11.5, Spd 11.5, Luck 14.55, Def 10. 45, and 7.45

Here Virion wins mobility, but Ricken has staves and much better offense in addition to similar durability against physical enemies and much better durability against magic enemies. For pair up, Ricken give either +3 mag, +4 def, and +1 move or +5 mag, +3 skill, and +2 res. Virion would give +4 strength and def. The +1 offensive stat doesn't make up for the +1 move by any means if Ricken is a DK. If Ricken goes Sage, Virion wins pair up.

You could promote Virion, though I can't really see why you would; he'd lose his big advantage (faster leveling) for some additional stats and bow knight is still kind of a shitty class (especially compared to wyvern rider). But for the hell of it, he'd have:

HP 33.4, Str 14.4, Skl 18.6, Spd 13.8, Luck 10.2, Def 9.7, Res 5.4

In this case, either Virion has a very minor durability lead against Sage Ricken or outright loses against DK Ricken. He beats DK Ricken in offense, as he can probably double some stuff DK Ricken can't, and he might beat Sage Ricken—not sure how much that +2 speed means. However, Ricken can counter all the time, attacks res, and potentially has staff utility while Virion has better combat and better pair up bonuses, 3 mag and 4 def or 5 magic versus 4 speed and possibly 1 move (depending on if Ricken is Sage or DK).

I can kind of see Virion being above Ricken, though I'd still lean towards Ricken being above Virion because of dealing with his time as an archer, which means Ricken could very well have a level lead. But even with Virion being above Ricken, it shouldn't be by nearly that much. Something like Virion at the bottom of D and Ricken at the top of F.

Also, I overrated Ricken in my last post. He's definitely not above Flavia and Basilio, though IMO neither is Virion.

Edited by bottlegnomes
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Virion is kind of in a weird place. His long term viability is very low, but he's one of your early characters and can help with chip damage during a time where everyone else isn't quite up to doubling status. His contributions in Chapters 1 through 4 is easily a lot more worthwhile than whatever Ricken, and by proxy, Basilio and Flavia, can do.

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