FE: Awakening Hard Mode Tier List

[Elieson]

^ I don't. That's what vulneraries are for. To the extent that I use Lissa, it's just to give her EXP from the staff pool.

Wow I'm actually a complete idiot because I didn't use Heal in Ch1 or Prologue, I just derped ad read Heal as healing in general, not the Heal Staff

[Redwall]

If you're looking to optimize (whether in a strong sense or in a more loose sense) both turncounts and reliability, Lissa works better as a Pair Up partner than as a legit healer, at least in the Prologue and Ch 1.

[Blademaster!]

How do you plan to argue Nowi up to S Tier?

Nowi's a bit shaky in chapter 8 and 9, but as Interceptor is seeing so far, and as I have seen, she essentially becomes unkillable from Paralogue 4 onwards as a result of concrete durability (the best kind there is), gains exp insanely fast, always has 1-2 range, and never has to worry about flying weakness (the only enemy in the game that has a wyrmslayer as far as I could tell is a Hero on chp 23 who did 7 damage to her in a chapter where nothing hurts her and she has 80 HP). Using her is more broken than Nostanking IMO, since it's cheaper, she still kills stuff, and she gains levels faster. With the rate at which she can gain levels, and how fast she can get up to speed, frankly, if Panne can be considered S-Tier, I can see Nowi there as well. As far as competitive resources go, she only needs tonics (something anyone can and probably should have), one of the 4(?) pre chapter 16 second seals if she reaches level 30 before then, and possibly a speed wing if she's being really RNG screwed (she actually doesn't need a seraph rob).

[aku chi]

Nowi's a bit shaky in chapter 8 and 9, but as Interceptor is seeing so far, and as I have seen, she essentially becomes unkillable from Paralogue 4 onwards as a result of concrete durability (the best kind there is), gains exp insanely fast, always has 1-2 range, and never has to worry about flying weakness (the only enemy in the game that has a wyrmslayer as far as I could tell is a Hero on chp 23 who did 7 damage to her in a chapter where nothing hurts her and she has 80 HP). Using her is more broken than Nostanking IMO, since it's cheaper, she still kills stuff, and she gains levels faster. With the rate at which she can gain levels, and how fast she can get up to speed, frankly, if Panne can be considered S-Tier, I can see Nowi there as well. As far as competitive resources go, she only needs tonics (something anyone can and probably should have), one of the 4(?) pre chapter 16 second seals if she reaches level 30 before then, and possibly a speed wing if she's being really RNG screwed (she actually doesn't need a seraph rob).

Nowi > Panne is not obvious to me. It's durability vs. offense and mobility. And considering that roughly half the maps are kill boss, I would think offense and mobility would be more valuable. Can you justify this proposed move with a detailed comparison between the two units?

As for Manakete tanking being better than Nosferatu tanking, I strongly disagree. Manaketes take damage and they don't auto-recover health. There are lategame enemies whose Atk exceeds the Manakete's maximum Def. And with Tiki, at least, most lategame enemies damage her some (~5-10 HP). This puts a limit on the amount of exposure Manakete's can endure. A competent Sorcerer with enough Nosferatu literally cannot be killed (excluding Counter shenanigans). Sorcerers also tend to have better offense than the Manaketes. Manaketes are generally slower than Sorcerers (Henry excluded). Sorcerers have a similar Atk with Noseratu but hit Res (dealing much more damage against the toughest enemies for Manaketes to ORKO: Generals, Great Knights, Wyvern Lords, Warriors, and Berserkers) and have skills that can result in extra damage (Anathema and Vengeance, at the very least). Nosferatu is only trivially more expensive per use than a Dragonstone (49 G vs. 46 G). But with Anathema leading to crit-kills, Nosferatu tanking is generally cheaper than Manakete tanking. Dragonstone+, on the other hand, is much more expensive per use than Nosferatu (108 G vs. 49 G).

Unrelated: I plan to argue Lon'qu and Lucina (Avatar) below the Pegasus Knights at some point. If anybody can justify their current position, I would be most eager to read such justification.

[Shadow Mir]

Nowi > Panne is not obvious to me. It's durability vs. offense and mobility. And considering that roughly half the maps are kill boss, I would think offense and mobility would be more valuable. Can you justify this proposed move with a detailed comparison between the two units?

As for Manakete tanking being better than Nosferatu tanking, I strongly disagree. Manaketes take damage and they don't auto-recover health. There are lategame enemies whose Atk exceeds the Manakete's maximum Def. And with Tiki, at least, most lategame enemies damage her some (~5-10 HP). This puts a limit on the amount of exposure Manakete's can endure. A competent Sorcerer with enough Nosferatu literally cannot be killed (excluding Counter shenanigans). Sorcerers also tend to have better offense than the Manaketes. Manaketes are generally slower than Sorcerers (Henry excluded). Sorcerers have a similar Atk with Noseratu but hit Res (dealing much more damage against the toughest enemies for Manaketes to ORKO: Generals, Great Knights, Wyvern Lords, Warriors, and Berserkers) and have skills that can result in extra damage (Anathema and Vengeance, at the very least). Nosferatu is only trivially more expensive per use than a Dragonstone (49 G vs. 46 G). But with Anathema leading to crit-kills, Nosferatu tanking is generally cheaper than Manakete tanking. Dragonstone+, on the other hand, is much more expensive per use than Nosferatu (108 G vs. 49 G).

Unrelated: I plan to argue Lon'qu and Lucina (Avatar) below the Pegasus Knights at some point. If anybody can justify their current position, I would be most eager to read such justification.

I don't think Anathema will drop enemy crit evade enough for there to be a notable crit chance without a boosted crit weapon and/or other outside factors that boost crit, especially for Tharja. But that's just me.

Edited April 7, 2013 by Levant Fortner

[KitheOfEvrark]

Unrelated: I plan to argue Lon'qu and Lucina (Avatar) below the Pegasus Knights at some point. If anybody can justify their current position, I would be most eager to read such justification.

I don't know about Lon'qu, but I think Lucina is mostly in her position due to being able to level up at insane speed due to Veteran. There's also the fact that the first couple chapters after she joins are infested with mounted and armored units which she can take out pretty easily due to Rapier. If you don't care about Rapier, then she can reclass into basically anything since Avatar passes down the entire female class set. By the time she promotes, she's not that far behind Chrom in performance and it doesn't take her long after that to surpass him. Come lategame, she's one of the best combat units. However, I could see her dropping a little bit since others have some pretty significant availability advantages over her. In my mind her position comes down to whether you value availability or lategame combat more.

[aku chi]

I don't think Anathema will drop enemy crit evade enough for there to be a notable crit chance without a boosted crit weapon and/or other outside factors that boost crit, especially for Tharja. But that's just me.

Supports boost crit by 10+, so it's very easy to get some crit as a result of Anathema. Plus, some Sorcerers are reclassed from Mages, which have Focus for more crit.

[Shadow Mir]

Supports boost crit by 10+, so it's very easy to get some crit as a result of Anathema. Plus, some Sorcerers are reclassed from Mages, which have Focus for more crit.

I'll chalk this up to a difference of opinion between us, but I don't really think Focus's minor crit boost is worth not having allies nearby.

[Da Bear]

I don't know about Lon'qu, but I think Lucina is mostly in her position due to being able to level up at insane speed due to Veteran. There's also the fact that the first couple chapters after she joins are infested with mounted and armored units which she can take out pretty easily due to Rapier. If you don't care about Rapier, then she can reclass into basically anything since Avatar passes down the entire female class set. By the time she promotes, she's not that far behind Chrom in performance and it doesn't take her long after that to surpass him. Come lategame, she's one of the best combat units. However, I could see her dropping a little bit since others have some pretty significant availability advantages over her. In my mind her position comes down to whether you value availability or lategame combat more.

One thing. Why on earth would you reclass Lucina? There are people on your team that really want those seals.

[Bryan]

One thing. Why on earth would you reclass Lucina? There are people on your team that really want those seals.

Everyone wants a seal. Why reclass Lucina? She's better than most of your units, and she'll only get better faster.

[KitheOfEvrark]

The only reason I brought up reclassing her was that it's an advantage for her that she can reclass into anything with Avatar as her mother. She doesn't have to reclass since she's great as a Lord/Great Lord but she can if you want more mobility, flight, skills, etc. Personally I like her as a Lord for Rapier but I know some people like to reclass her to Cavalier for the move, Discipline and earlier lance access. The point is that she has options which is always a good thing.

[PKL]

Reclassing Lucina is the way to go. Cavalier gives her Discipline, which on top of Veteran, is a very powerful combination. The loss of Rapier is negligible, since she will gain access to beast killers before long and Armorslayer.

[Da Bear]

Here's how I see it: Lucina is already in a great class and doesn't really need the reclass. On the other hand Nowi wants more levels, the Avatar is probably going to cap out before chapter 16 and want more levels, Panne has already taken one and the last (unless I counted wrong) is between Sumia to GK, Cordelia to Hero, Noire to something other than Archer and Lucina. Out of those Lucina needs it the least.

[Blademaster!]

Nowi > Panne is not obvious to me. It's durability vs. offense and mobility. And considering that roughly half the maps are kill boss, I would think offense and mobility would be more valuable. Can you justify this proposed move with a detailed comparison between the two units?

Except Nowi still has offensive ability available to her, and by late game you could just reclass Nowi into a class with more mobility if you really wish to do so, otherwise you could use rescue to compensate for such problems as well. I haven't used Panne enough to argue Nowi > Panne (which I never even brought up) but frankly Panne has never impressed me as an offensive unit (even when reclassed). I prefer her support bonus more since it boosts spd and str.

As for Manakete tanking being better than Nosferatu tanking, I strongly disagree. Manaketes take damage and they don't auto-recover health. There are lategame enemies whose Atk exceeds the Manakete's maximum Def. And with Tiki, at least, most lategame enemies damage her some (~5-10 HP). This puts a limit on the amount of exposure Manakete's can endure. A competent Sorcerer with enough Nosferatu literally cannot be killed (excluding Counter shenanigans). Sorcerers also tend to have better offense than the Manaketes. Manaketes are generally slower than Sorcerers (Henry excluded). Sorcerers have a similar Atk with Noseratu but hit Res (dealing much more damage against the toughest enemies for Manaketes to ORKO: Generals, Great Knights, Wyvern Lords, Warriors, and Berserkers) and have skills that can result in extra damage (Anathema and Vengeance, at the very least). Nosferatu is only trivially more expensive per use than a Dragonstone (49 G vs. 46 G). But with Anathema leading to crit-kills, Nosferatu tanking is generally cheaper than Manakete tanking. Dragonstone+, on the other hand, is much more expensive per use than Nosferatu (108 G vs. 49 G).

In my run, Nowi essentially stopped taking damage at chapter 18 and the only enemies capable of hurting her for the rest of the game were Grima, the chp 21 boss, Walhart in chp 19, a few sages (arguably the most damaging enemies in the game after swordmasters with Astra and Berserkers if they could ever hit you), and the wyrm slayer hero in chp 23, and as far as hard mode goes, no, there are no enemies who will exceed the max def of a Manakete besides the few I mentioned. And of the few enemies I mentioned who could hurt Nowi, none could do above 10 damage besides Grima with Ignis, and Nowi also had very high avoid thanks to her high luck. Even with Tiki having the possibility of taking ~5-10 damage, she never managed to get below half her HP in a chapter, since she just had so much of it, along with high luck and spd as well giving her high avoid. I wasn't joking when I said that the three manakete's were invincible in my log(although it was poorly detailed). Of the enemies you mention as being difficult to kill, generals were the only ones I found troublesome to kill and pretty much every unit in the game has some trouble killing them (Tharja in my run was only able to deal 2/3 of their hp to them with Nosferatu even at 15/10, though I don't know if she was mag screwed), and Wyvern Lords(Wyrmsbane), GK, Warriors, and Berserkers certainly aren't difficult to kill.

My experiences with Nostanking and Manketetanking leads me to believe that Manketetanking is better honestly (unless you're avatar because of Veteran) since I don't have to worry about missing, running out of weapon uses at crucial times, and the faster rate of exp gain. But like I said, I will try again this time around and see if I get better results.

[PKL]

You and Interceptor seem to forget that you spoonfeed Nowi a lot of levels that could be fed to units with more mobility...idk, Ive never been impressed by Nowi.

[Da Bear]

You and Interceptor seem to forget that you spoonfeed Nowi a lot of levels that could be fed to units with more mobility...idk, Ive never been impressed by Nowi.

It is worthwhile to do so. I have honestly never had to baby her much she requires some tonics early on and then she's pretty much amazing. I've been screwed with her before and she was still in my top 5 units without overleveling. Her attack and defense is that good.

Edited April 7, 2013 by bearclaw13

[Jediabiwan]

Nowi > Panne is not obvious to me. It's durability vs. offense and mobility. And considering that roughly half the maps are kill boss, I would think offense and mobility would be more valuable. Can you justify this proposed move with a detailed comparison between the two units?

I agree. Awakening hard mode is all about offence and IMO the amount of durability that is needed can be reached by most units relatively easy making things like nosferatu tanking and Nowi's durability less important. Nowi can get just as mobile as Panne, but panne's offence will likely be higher the majority of the time mainly due to her high speed.

This may be due to personal experience, but every time I have used nowi she just suffer's so much from low speed that she falls behind anyone that can double the enemy, especially with her low movement as a manakete. Even giving here a speedwings, pair up and tonic couldn't fix the problem the majority of the time and often just kept her from being doubled. It seems like from what you guys are saying that she can avoid this problem relatively easily, but from my experience here speed growth is just too risky for her to go up to S teir.

[Florete]

I'll chalk this up to a difference of opinion between us, but I don't really think Focus's minor crit boost is worth not having allies nearby.

It's worth noting that for skills like Focus and Relief, a Pair Up partner does not nullify the skill effects. A Nos-tank with a Pair Up partner will usually be able to fly solo.

[Interceptor]

You and Interceptor seem to forget that you spoonfeed Nowi a lot of levels that could be fed to units with more mobility...idk, Ive never been impressed by Nowi.

Spoonfeed? Nowi contributes to chapter completion during her training. What unit can take on half of a map, with mixed axes/mages/bows? Not a flier. Not a low-RES mount. I think that perhaps you don't understand the value of being able to send Nowi somewhere, and then focus fire the entire rest of your team on an objective. Did you happen to notice what she did in Para4, Ch11, and Ch12?

[Da Bear]

I agree. Awakening hard mode is all about offence and IMO the amount of durability that is needed can be reached by most units relatively easy making things like nosferatu tanking and Nowi's durability less important. Nowi can get just as mobile as Panne, but panne's offence will likely be higher the majority of the time mainly due to her high speed.

This may be due to personal experience, but every time I have used nowi she just suffer's so much from low speed that she falls behind anyone that can double the enemy, especially with her low movement as a manakete. Even giving here a speedwings, pair up and tonic couldn't fix the problem the majority of the time and often just kept her from being doubled. It seems like from what you guys are saying that she can avoid this problem relatively easily, but from my experience here speed growth is just too risky for her to go up to S teir.

I don't think S either but she is a very good unit. Her speed can turn out bad or good or just mediocre. I find that she just needs mediocre speed to be great because of pairup and cheap tonics. If you pair her with Lon'qu, not a bad idea because it gives both of them just what they want, she can often double and is never doubled with wings she can double non myrmidons and thieves fairly easily.

[Interceptor]

Nowi is not S-tier (although seeing as how Panne and Chrom are there, maybe she is), but her absolute floor is high A-rank. Nowi needs SPD, but a lot of what she gets is guaranteed: support, stone, and Tonic (nobody is going to complain about 150g, hope).

Once she has doubling SPD, it's gg. The only target that's even a little bit of a stretch are Knights/Generals, which 1) give almost everyone trouble, 2) will die >70-80% of the time anyway because of a Dual Strike or a crit, and 3) she's borderline clean ORKO as it is because of her high STR growth and leveling speed (which means you can hit her with a Tonic to guarantee the kill if she's not screwed). There is no other enemy type that stymies her.

Even the damage/healing is overblown. Is Nowi's 43 DEF cap a problem? Only if we ignore supports. An S-rank from Gregor gives her +5 DEF even in the case where he doesn't grow at all and we just slapped a Master Seal on him for Hero mode. In the highly unlikely circumstance that a unit with 80 HP and 48 DEF actually needs more beef, this is what a DEF tonic will solve, never mind that Nowi's perma-forever 1-2 range allows her to spend Player Phases healing herself with items because she counters everything anyway.

I can only believe that the N.O.W.I. skepticism comes from ignorance, i.e. people have not actually used her seriously. I mean, look at Ch12, which is certainly not a Kill Commander objective, it's a Rout. On Turn 1 I had her face 17 units on Enemy Phase. That's not a typo, literally she fought SEVENTEEN GUYS. Thirteen of them straight-up died, three were in OHKO range, and only one (a Paladin) was in any shape to fight afterwards. Nowi didn't even hit half health, and in fact didn't even up healing at all. This was in addition to killing a Knight on Player Phase, because why not. She faced so much combat in one Turn, that Gregor actually got a complete level as the Support unit.

Nowi is a goddamn boss. Her only flaws are mobility (which is still better than tier 1 foot units, mind you), and low base SPD, both of which are easily remedied.

Edited April 7, 2013 by Interceptor

[JamesBCrazy]

Donnel is a goddamn boss. His only flaws are his low bases and the need to feed him a metric fuckton of kills, both of which are easily remedied.

[Shadow Mir]

It's worth noting that for skills like Focus and Relief, a Pair Up partner does not nullify the skill effects. A Nos-tank with a Pair Up partner will usually be able to fly solo.

I know that, but I still think 10 crit is too little to be worth it.

[JamesBCrazy]

I know that, but I still think 10 crit is too little to be worth it.

10 crit is a hell of a lot better than 0 crit.

[Interceptor]

Donnel is a goddamn boss. His only flaws are his low bases and the need to feed him a metric fuckton of kills, both of which are easily remedied.

FOH with your false equivalences. Donnel is garbage, and nearly impossible to train; feeding him kills is anything but easy. Nowi is an immediate contributor to clears, even in her joining chapter.