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FE: Awakening Hard Mode Tier List


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Donnel is a goddamn boss. His only flaws are his low bases and the need to feed him a metric fuckton of kills, both of which are easily remedied.

Are you serious?

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10 crit is a hell of a lot better than 0 crit.

ITT:

we are building strats that rely on 10 crit over 0 crit.

Good plans wouldn't rely on such a skill, when there's so much better, and early game 10 crit is nothig to consider reliable

Edited by Elieson
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I have many similar experiences as Interceptor, Nowi is a cute little goddess among a game of mortals. She could definitely stand to move into A, and in my ideal world (disagree if you wish) she should go to the top of A or the bottom of S.

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While we're talking about A tier, can we ask why Stahl is at the top of it?

Being one of the many units that has a shit base speed and no real way to cure it until level 10 where he is Unit That Needs Second Seal#1Billion (and has the problem of losing a horse, and has either the issue of requiring lots of exp to others to get it/worse results for others at his level), and outside of transportation he doesn't really serve as a good combat unit. This alone doesn't really seem like A tier quality. I dunno how low he'd go (I can at least ay he makes a decent support if he gets 10 in Str and Def early so he can help train up someone then ship them off to someone better when you decide to drop Stahl), but I would at least like to see him drop to B.

Everyone in A tier has the argument of even though they can serve short term like Stahl and be useful, unlike Stahl they can actually prove to be useful or powerful units in the long run. In my experience with Stahl, he has never come close to approaching this. It's similar to Vaike, in that they are just really useful in the short term. At minimum, I'd say above Miriel's current position, but Miriel is another unit I believe should drop, but then again perhaps our experiences with her are a bit scewed.

I say that cause I wanna ask what thoughts are on units that get promoted early, like an immediate 10. Some units just can't stand to wait till 20, and could stand to use the immediate boost if their reclasses don't help them. Miriel would be one such unit, seeing as she has Sage for Rescue use or Dark Knight because +9 HP and 7 Def tends to make your durability issues go away, and with a pairing like anna (+1 Move granting additional movement for Anna, who then can take the +Magic support to have a deep reaching Rescue to pull someone far ahead into a map) could prove to be more potent than waiting for Miriel to pathetically reach level 20. We have a lot of Master Seals (we can buy them eventually, if not from Anna deals at random if one is so fortunate) that could potentially be put to use.

Others I feel fit that vein: Gregor for superior supporting as Hero for beef or Bow Knight for mobilty (Imagine Nowi with 7 move), Kellam for the same reasons as Gregor, Henry because lol 9 base speed, Virion because lol leveling him to 20, and Ricken for similar reasons to Miriel. Most others are able to wait it out for better lategame I imagine.

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Um... Stahl should not be re-classed. He's very good as a Cavalier->Paladin (or even Great Knight), he just needs a pair-up partner that boosts Spd. Cordelia is his ideal partner, and she gets a lot out of the support too (Paladin gives great pair-up boosts). Cordelia & Stahl can do lategame what Sumia & Frederick can do earlygame. Avatar, Chrom, Sully, Sumia, and Lon'qu can all provide some Spd for him before Cordelia joins. Sully and Sumia (despite the lack of S-support) can make a decent long-term pair-up partner for Stahl if you aren't using Cordelia or have other plans for her. Stahl is right where he belongs, IMO, though the Pegasus Knights will undoubtedly rise above him before this tier list settles.

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I just finished my current playthrough, and I'm planning to start a new run on Hard to help test things out for this tier list. If you guys want to help me plan/tell me what needs to be tested let me know in my thread. I'll be making it later today when I don't have classes.

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I would agree with the testpick of Stahl, seeing everyone's been questioning him lately. Ricken is also another good one I suppose. I would suggest Virion, but that would be cruel of me. If you do bother with Virion though, try keeping a very solid team early (example, don't try units like Vaike and Miriel on top of it), and promote him level 10 (waiting for 20 is a nightmare, and reclassing only makes him slower, which is bad because he's already slow to begin with. I don't care he has Wyvern as an option, he just doesn't work as one).

Um... Stahl should not be re-classed. He's very good as a Cavalier->Paladin (or even Great Knight), he just needs a pair-up partner that boosts Spd. Cordelia is his ideal partner, and she gets a lot out of the support too (Paladin gives great pair-up boosts). Cordelia & Stahl can do lategame what Sumia & Frederick can do earlygame. Avatar, Chrom, Sully, Sumia, and Lon'qu can all provide some Spd for him before Cordelia joins. Sully and Sumia (despite the lack of S-support) can make a decent long-term pair-up partner for Stahl if you aren't using Cordelia or have other plans for her. Stahl is right where he belongs, IMO, though the Pegasus Knights will undoubtedly rise above him before this tier list settles.

It's nice to say that a speed support just fixes him, but if you look at my playlog and look over how Vaike's been doing for a good portion of his existence (sucking), go look at Stahl and ask yourself what really does he do any better with outside of having a hourse. He's slow to the point a speed support won't just automatically fix him (without a reclass, which again go see Vaike). I even paired him with Cordelia like assumed, and the speed generally never made the difference, and really just made me want to only use Cordelia in the pairing which made me ask why wasn't I just using Kellam instead. Kellam gives better boosts, requires less exp, and can even reward us with a superior Rallybot Severa if we really need that.

Anyways, as stated, a speed support doesn't help him early (Even assuming best case with Lonqu, +4 speed doesn't really help. At best that is like 12-13 speed, which I believe only gives him Dark Mages. Those supports would prefer others as well. Sumia can just get more from Fred, Kellam gives Lonqu the durability to actually be 3-4 rounded which is important as Lonqu's offense can actually be good under the circumstances, Chrom and Sully probably have eachother as it is if they really want an offense boost+horse, and Avatar again could probably ask for better (hard to pick who specifically, seeing as Avatar can generally pair with anyone and it works).

So yeah, I would still much prefer reclass over being a shittier Kellam who happens to have a horse (a problem that can be remedied if we go Kellam's alternate option of Great Knight if we don't care about Severa at all, which we don't have to).

EDIT: As for Lonqu, he generally can make of some of the less wanted supports, namely those that give a lot of Strength and Defense. Kellam doesn't really get a better pairing for a while, and Lonqu greatly appreciates the armor. Vaike can give him some good muscle, and hell even Stahl can prove to be helpful to him. Eventually off that if you just give him time on his own, he can transition to support with Cherche, which imo is another match made in heaven cause it solves both their problems. In the end it can result in a Gryphon Gerome that has Tantivity, Quick Burn, and Avoid+10. Just having +35 avoid turn 1 for the hell of it is pretty silly.

Edited by grandjackal
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I would agree with the testpick of Stahl, seeing everyone's been questioning him lately.

"everyone" = grandjackal

It's nice to say that a speed support just fixes him, but if you look at my playlog and look over how Vaike's been doing for a good portion of his existence (sucking), go look at Stahl and ask yourself what really does he do any better with outside of having a hourse. He's slow to the point a speed support won't just automatically fix him (without a reclass, which again go see Vaike).

  • He has a horse. He also has better Hit (due to weapons and weapon triangle control), something that was bothering you about Vaike's earlygame IIRC.
  • Very few units can double early-game. Hell, even Fred needs a +Spd pair-up to double most units. So don't hold Stahl to a higher standard than Chrom or Sully.
  • Vaike's re-class makes sense because Barbarian is a good class. Stahl's doesn't...
  • Your Vaike was Spd-screwed. Don't let that color your opinion of all 6-Spd early-joiners. A level 13 Fighter Vaike and a level 12 Cavalier Stahl average 11 Spd, which is enough to double with an A Panne or A Cordelia support.

I even paired him with Cordelia like assumed, and the speed generally never made the difference, and really just made me want to only use Cordelia in the pairing which made me ask why wasn't I just using Kellam instead. Kellam gives better boosts, requires less exp, and can even reward us with a superior Rallybot Severa if we really need that.

So yeah, I would still much prefer reclass over being a shittier Kellam who happens to have a horse (a problem that can be remedied if we go Kellam's alternate option of Great Knight if we don't care about Severa at all, which we don't have to).

That's silly. Kellam can't stand on his own: he's pair-up fodder. He can't double even with a Spd support. Sure, he gives better initial pair-up boosts to Cordelia, but it's a one-sided relationship. Paladin Stahl can switch in when bows or wind magic would threaten Cordelia. Plus, Cordelia appreciates a little Spd from her pair-up partner to double the fastest units. Anyways, are you talking about another playthrough? Because you didn't train Stahl or Cordelia in your latest logged playthrough.

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That's silly. Kellam can't stand on his own: he's pair-up fodder. He can't double even with a Spd support. Sure, he gives better initial pair-up boosts to Cordelia, but it's a one-sided relationship. Paladin Stahl can switch in when bows or wind magic would threaten Cordelia. Plus, Cordelia appreciates a little Spd from her pair-up partner to double the fastest units.

Definitely would agree with this. You can see shades of what this pairing would do in SumiaxFred; I might have used Stahl if I had thought of it in time. The inability to tag out in order to deal with wind/bows, is limiting for Cordelia. Although I may not opt for Paladin in this case; GK is really good on a Peg even though you lose the class SPD.

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"everyone" = grandjackal

Hey, I'm not the first guy to bring up his position. Read back some pages if you want.

  • He has a horse. He also has better Hit (due to weapons and weapon triangle control), something that was bothering you about Vaike's earlygame IIRC.
A horse is a horse of course, but this does not excuse unimpressive mt when you consider that with the strongest weapon he can get immediately (Iron Sword), 13 mt isn't that great. Acc was annoying, but at least Vaike was hitting hard enough to matter.
Very few units can double early-game. Hell, even Fred needs a +Spd pair-up to double most units. So don't hold Stahl to a higher standard than Chrom or Sully.
So I can't judge a unit as being worse than good units even though he is? Yes, Fred needs a speed pair up to double. But since he can, he's among the best to get such things. Seeing as how Stahl can't make use of such a resource, at best his offense is about half of what a good portion of other units are sporting. This is a bad thing.
Vaike's re-class makes sense because Barbarian is a good class. Stahl's doesn't...
Stahl has Myrmdon, which is basically in the same vein as Vaike going barb. Lose some durability, gain some offense through speed. Considering Stahl is slow at his start to the point that he pretty much only does well with an Str or Def support, he might as well make use of it by repairing the thing he sucks at. All he would really lose is his horse, which he wasn't even putting to good use.
Your Vaike was Spd-screwed. Don't let that color your opinion of all 6-Spd early-joiners. A level 13 Fighter Vaike and a level 12 Cavalier Stahl average 11 Spd, which is enough to double with an A Panne or A Cordelia support.

Him being speed screwed was not my concern, it was an annoyance that made using him even worse. 6 speed base is catastrophically bad, there's no real arguing around it. You say a level 13 Vaike or a level 12 Stahl as though that just happens in a relevant amount of time. When one considers a pair up, usually one wants the better combatant up front. For most good pairings, that support is almost never him, again thanks to an awful speed base. This limits how much he gets exposed to, and thus limits his exp gain, as it did with Vaike if I took your pairing suggestions (in fact I did with Panne, and every time I switched to Vaike it hurt until I finally managed to get him to reclass level, to which he doesn't really qualify as deserving one of the first 2 or 3). Those levels took a while, and were also the cause of headaches.

That's silly. Kellam can't stand on his own: he's pair-up fodder. He can't double even with a Spd support. Sure, he gives better initial pair-up boosts to Cordelia, but it's a one-sided relationship. Paladin Stahl can switch in when bows or wind magic would threaten Cordelia. Plus, Cordelia appreciates a little Spd from her pair-up partner to double the fastest units. Anyways, are you talking about another playthrough? Because you didn't train Stahl or Cordelia in your latest logged playthrough.

I am talking about another playthrough, yes. The sacrifice to your suggestion is that Stahl is too slow to actually kill anything at 1-2 range if he were to enter such combat (seeing as by the time he's a Paladin, those enemies are typically sages and bow knights, Bow Knights being decently fast). The only bow wielding enemies he could double are Warriors, which A. is not hard, and B. Sine Cordelia gives him virtually no Def, he wasn't taking the shots much better.

I would go to say that Cordelia would actually prefer a one sided pair. Her partner isn't going to magically be better at dealing with bows unless we're just not exposing them to much enemy phase (which case, why even talk about it) seeing as she gives her partner no defense, so her partner might as well just help her best they can.

As for being pair-up fodder, I don't really see a problem with it. Rush him to 10, promote him, and give her those ridiculous support boosts. Make it so she doesn't even have to switch to her support so often (if at all). I don't want to be bothered training too many units and distributing exp too thinly, and if I keep being concerned about the partner of a support, one will just wind up doing that. A good example from Interceptor's on playlog is Nowi+Gregor. A high exaggeration considering it's Nowi who at some point becomes the hardest thing to kill ever, but it does demonstrate the point that one does not necessarily need the partner to be trained up as long as it makes the other unit more effective.

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A horse is a horse of course, but this does not excuse unimpressive mt when you consider that with the strongest weapon he can get immediately (Iron Sword), 13 mt isn't that great. Acc was annoying, but at least Vaike was hitting hard enough to matter.

Avatar w Bronze Sword - 7-10 Atk

Chrom w Falchion - 12 Atk

Virion w Iron Bow - 12 Atk

Sumia w Iron Lance - 12 Atk

Sully w Iron Lance - 13 Atk

Stahl w Iron Sword - 13 Atk

Vaike w Iron Axe - 16 Atk

Kellam w Iron Lance - 16 Atk

So I can't judge a unit as being worse than good units even though he is?

My point is that Chrom and Sully's Spd leads over Stahl don't matter if they don't let them double. Chrom and Sully generally need a heavy Spd support to double in the early game. Thankfully, Sully has such an option in Chrom, but Chrom needs to wait for either Sumia/Lon'qu or a C+ support with Avatar, Sully, or Stahl. More generally: all non-Frederick, non-Avatar units kinda suck earlygame. Holding that against Stahl alone is unjust.

Stahl has Myrmdon, which is basically in the same vein as Vaike going barb. Lose some durability, gain some offense through speed. Considering Stahl is slow at his start to the point that he pretty much only does well with an Str or Def support, he might as well make use of it by repairing the thing he sucks at. All he would really lose is his horse, which he wasn't even putting to good use.

I'm trying to understand how you believe that Stahl should re-class but is a poor unit when he does. I have an idea, though: let the people who think more highly of Stahl suggest what is best for Stahl. Stahl should remain a Cavalier and promote to Paladin or Great Knight. Cavalier is a fantastic unpromoted class. +2 mov, two weapon types (with a skill that makes using both easy), solid pair-up bonuses, and no weaknesses that matter. Stahl should not give that up to become a weaker, less durable, less mobile, swords-locked unit all to gain enough Spd to double. Cavalier Stahl can gain the Spd to double with a dedicated Spd support. And Stahl is arguably better as a Great Knight that can't double than as a Swordmaster that can. An S support results in a very high chance of dual strikes. With Great Knight Stahl's massive Str, a dual strike generally leads to a ORKO. Great Knight Stahl has great physical durability, and so can tank in the Valm chapters with near impunity. But this is still Stahl's second best option. Best of all is if Stahl can get a Cordelia support and double as a Paladin. Then he can tank magic, too, and ORKO most everything. Re-classing to Swordmaster for the Grima arc has some merit (especially if nobody else can wield Amatsu), but re-classing to Myrmidon is foolhardy.

Him being speed screwed was not my concern, it was an annoyance that made using him even worse. 6 speed base is catastrophically bad, there's no real arguing around it. You say a level 13 Vaike or a level 12 Stahl as though that just happens in a relevant amount of time. When one considers a pair up, usually one wants the better combatant up front. For most good pairings, that support is almost never him, again thanks to an awful speed base. This limits how much he gets exposed to, and thus limits his exp gain, as it did with Vaike if I took your pairing suggestions (in fact I did with Panne, and every time I switched to Vaike it hurt until I finally managed to get him to reclass level, to which he doesn't really qualify as deserving one of the first 2 or 3). Those levels took a while, and were also the cause of headaches.

I agree that Stahl has a mediocre earlygame, but he can be one of the best units midgame and remain very solid lategame. A Tier is where he belongs.

As for being pair-up fodder, I don't really see a problem with it. Rush him to 10, promote him, and give her those ridiculous support boosts. Make it so she doesn't even have to switch to her support so often (if at all). I don't want to be bothered training too many units and distributing exp too thinly, and if I keep being concerned about the partner of a support, one will just wind up doing that. A good example from Interceptor's on playlog is Nowi+Gregor. A high exaggeration considering it's Nowi who at some point becomes the hardest thing to kill ever, but it does demonstrate the point that one does not necessarily need the partner to be trained up as long as it makes the other unit more effective.

The problem is that every map has bows or wind magic that Cordelia cannot endure. It's much easier to use Cordelia (and any flier) when you have a competent non-flier unit that you can switch to when bows or wind magic would threaten Cordelia. Stahl can be such a unit. Kellam cannot. Nowi doesn't have this problem, obviously.

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Stahl is impenetrable midgame. Think what certain people think of Tharja but without actually needing Nosferatu.

Endgame Stahl is much of the same but as a fast Swordmaster who can evade a little bit and double. Amatsu isn't a bad 1-2 range option especially since his Skill doesn't tend to be bad especially as a Swordmaster, and his durability remains. It just happens that he has some weird equilibrium of concrete and evasive durability. He's not necessarily mediocre early game - not as great as Sully at least (his early game and her early game aren't that much different) - but GK Stahl tanks the midgame and Cavalier Stahl tanks the latter early game.

Stahl also has Kellam support to boost his already existing strengths. He may have some problems here and there with magic during the endgame (his midgame is good enough that he doesn't worry about anything that's not a Valkyrie) but I can't see him any lower than he currently is.

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I got Lucina (Avatar) in my Lunatic playthrough. Here's her base stats, for reference:

Lucina (level 10 Lord) - 42 HP, 18 Str, 6 Mag, 19 Skl, 19 Spd, 15 Lck, 15 Def, 8 Res

Lucina (level 10/1 Cavalier) - 44 HP, 19 Str, 5 Mag, 18 Skl, 17 Spd, 15 Lck, 16 Def, 7 Res

I had a 11/15 Cavalier Chrom and a 20/12 Grandmaster Avatar after C13, so I imagine my Lucina is a little better than might be expected in this tier list. My play experience with Lucina (Avatar) on Lunatic might not be relevant, but at least these stats will be grounds for theory-crafting.

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Stats varying depending upon level-ups. So, the levels of parents by such and such time are more important for getting an average for the kids I believe. Having the direct stats are nice though.

I wonder about how effective Avatar(F)xDonnel would play out for Morgan if you slaved Donnel to Avatar(F) without raising him. Veteran/Aptitude seems really good at catch-up.

So, assuming 30 levels as above aku chi got, no contribution from Donnel, no asset/flaw consideration, and immediately reclassing to something else like Cavalier (villager base stats are ****), you get a Morgan with:

30 Hp, 14.167 Str, 8.333 Mag, 12.333 Skl, 13.333 Spd, 9.167 Lck, 11.667 Def, 6.333 Res.

Hmm... A -14 hp loss, -5 str, -6 skl, -4 spd, -5 def, -1 res to a lv10/1 Lucina as Cavalier without having that trained parent. The other side to this is that said unit gets +20% to all stats.

HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res

88 58 21 60 60 68 40 26 -Lucina (Avatar(f)xChrom

106 80 50 78 80 81 60 45 -Morgan (Avatar(f)xDonnel

Wow, I just realized Interceptor was using Donnel in a LTC. Okay, nvm. This combination sucks completely.

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Well it would be effective if you didn't care about how fast you went. In Morgan's recruitment Paralogue (I'll post it later), he basically gets a complete level on every kill after reclassing to Cavalier, with a high chance of perfect level-ups. A Pair-up with Femvatar keeps him from getting housed, and actually gives him some doubling targets. So it IS good at catch-up, but the problem is that you don't have a whole lot of runway left once you recruit him.

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What's up with Lon'qu being so much higher than Gaius?

  • Their base stats and growth rates are nearly the same, and I personally think Gaius' higher strength at base and in growth rates outweighs Lon'qu's lead in defense.
  • Gaius' two Thief skills (Locktouch, Movement+1) are definitely more useful than Lon'qu's (Avoid+10, Vantage).
  • Gaius joins only one chapter later than Lon'qu, and is immediately useful. He is our only unit with Locktouch for a significant amount of time.
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What's up with Lon'qu being so much higher than Gaius?

  • Their base stats and growth rates are nearly the same, and I personally think Gaius' higher strength at base and in growth rates outweighs Lon'qu's lead in defense.
  • Gaius' two Thief skills (Locktouch, Movement+1) are definitely more useful than Lon'qu's (Avoid+10, Vantage).
  • Gaius joins only one chapter later than Lon'qu, and is immediately useful. He is our only unit with Locktouch for a significant amount of time.

Errr, that last one doesn't even sound like much of an argument since there's only one chapter with chests before Anna enters the scene, and that one happens to be his joining chapter.

Edited by Levant Fortner
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What's up with Lon'qu being so much higher than Gaius?

  • Their base stats and growth rates are nearly the same, and I personally think Gaius' higher strength at base and in growth rates outweighs Lon'qu's lead in defense.
  • Gaius' two Thief skills (Locktouch, Movement+1) are definitely more useful than Lon'qu's (Avoid+10, Vantage).
  • Gaius joins only one chapter later than Lon'qu, and is immediately useful. He is our only unit with Locktouch for a significant amount of time.

Lon'qu has Wyvern Rider and immediate access to Myrmidon skills. Gaius is more for utility, but he doesn't really win out in offense in the long run.

Avoid+10 with Quick Burn and S support can give Lon'qu a great Enemy Phase once he gets going. Vantage also gives him a chance to kill something on his last legs. Gaius doesn't really replicate this with Sol very reliably.

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Fair enough, but iirc there are multiple chests scattered about on Anna's joining chapter, and it would be inefficient to have her open all of them by herself.

Alright, these are good points you're raising, but i still think Gaius' utility along with his ability to be at least decent in combat should move him up.

Edited by rigadoog
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I really think it's time for Chrom to move down to A tier.

Other than his okay-ish offense, he has very little going for him compared to everyone already in S-tier, with the slight exception of Frederick. He's essentialy swordlocked since he'll never have decent 1-2 range (lol Javelins), and he really doesn't get any skills that directly benefit him in battle. He could reclass to Cav to alleviate those problems, but that takes a Second Seal and it can exacerbate any existing speed issues he might be suffering in the earlygame.

Chrom is a great support unit to pair up with because of Dual Strike+ and pair up bonuses, but he's a very lackluster character when he's in front. Definitely high A-tier, but there's no way he should be in S.

@Gaius:

Gaius is almost literally a glass cannon, which means you really don't want to expose him to much combat--especially since his sluggish Luck growth really screws with his avoid. Thief utility is awesome, but being a below-average combat unit in a game where most of the missions are Rout/Kill boss isn't.

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On Anna's chapter, what's stopping lissa from being ferried to the opposite chest room and Rescuing Anna with a support bot to + her mag?

Gaius really is fine where he is.

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What's stopping Lissa? Probably her Mag stat. In reference to Libra, that is a far ways off for Lissa to catch up to.

Also, why would people change Lonqu to a wyvern? You have much better alternatives for that than him.

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I imagine he would be more useful than he is already? I never really understood Lon'qu place. He is great for a support buddy early on. He can double stuff and kill things with a strong weapon. But, his strength/defences later on due not allow him to do much against multiple enemies. Nowi does a better job of this than he does.

So, unless you re-classed him to Wyvern Rider to fix those Defence/Strength issues what good can he do?

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