FE: Awakening Hard Mode Tier List

[Florete]

Because not everyone has wireless Internet access?

If we were living ten years ago, this might be a good reason. Today, I'd say that three people not having any access to Wireless internet shouldn't impact the tier list.

[eclipse]

If we were living ten years ago, this might be a good reason. Today, I'd say that three people not having any access to Wireless internet shouldn't impact the tier list.

Just because it seems plentiful here doesn't mean it's the same elsewhere.

[The Fir Coat]

It makes it repeatable, but inaccurate. And it can't be applied to just any run, only a run that follows these rules.

That's a big problem with this game in general. Unlike most of the previous games, FEA allows for a high degree of randomness beyond just stat gains. See also: Broken ass shiny tile items from the prologue onwards, L+ Skills, etc.

If we were living ten years ago, this might be a good reason. Today, I'd say that three people not having any access to Wireless internet shouldn't impact the tier list.

Do you just need to download the teams once and not actually need a persistent connection? If so, that seems reasonable to assume to me.

Edited April 28, 2013 by IsAnthraxBayad

[Florete]

Just because it seems plentiful here doesn't mean it's the same elsewhere.

Isn't here all that matters?

That's a big problem with this game in general. Unlike most of the previous games, FEA allows for a high degree of randomness beyond just stat gains. See also: Broken ass shiny tile items from the prologue onwards, L+ Skills, etc.

Do you just need to download the teams once and not actually need a persistent connection? If so, that seems reasonable to assume to me.

Yes, this is true. Any run of the game can be quite strongly affected by random chance.

Yes. Same for the Bonus Box items.

[riariadne]

You only need to ever download the teams once. I don't think bonus box stuff would be unreasonable. However Anna shops are too up to chance- those really shouldn't be considered, just like how event tiles shouldn't be considered.

[Zkirsche]

You only need to ever download the teams once. I don't think bonus box stuff would be unreasonable. However Anna shops are too up to chance- those really shouldn't be considered, just like how event tiles shouldn't be considered.

Why? It's more likely than not the item you want will appear once or more during your playthrough, but you're gimping units that want them by saying they won't come up, whereby sandbagging them and not giving an accurate representation on how well they do in a run.

And skirmishes come far too often to just hand wave, a lot of exp can be gained from them with little effort, along with lots of gold to make shiny forges.

it still has a cost associated with it.

Never said it didn't, just that it can fix all of Miriel's durability problems by doing so and thus should be considered instead of people just going "her durability always sucks" and that being the end of it.

[Redwall]

While eschewing Anna shops and event-tile weapons may not produce accurate playthroughs, they will produce (relatively) precise playthroughs. The tier list already allows for a fair bit of grey area; allowing the aforementioned things will only make characters harder to tier.

Edited April 28, 2013 by Redwall

[eclipse]

Isn't here all that matters?

"Here" meaning "somewhere in a relatively populated city in America".

[shadykid]

"Here" meaning "somewhere in a relatively populated city in America".

it's only a one time thing though (especially cause all of them are already out)

[Redwall]

Given that Renown awards are allowed, I don't think lack of Internet is assumed. Seems to me like the Spotpass-or-not question should be decided solely on balance issues.

[Zkirsche]

Well, isn't the whole point of debating tier lists to make it an accurate representation of how units perform in a run compared to each other?

Really, assuming we get an extra second seal/early master seal is not making things more difficult if we just assume that, as they're pretty damn likely to happen, that they happen and base the tier list as such.

[Shadow Mir]

Really, assuming we get an extra second seal/early master seal is not making things more difficult if we just assume that, as they're pretty damn likely to happen, that they happen and base the tier list as such.

It's already enough of a chore to tier as is, so why make it even harder to do so? Besides, we'd have to be assuming the merchant pops up in a location where they have master seals or second seals AND that they have them in stock - doesn't sound reasonable to me.

Edited April 28, 2013 by Levant Fortner

[Interceptor]

Well, isn't the whole point of debating tier lists to make it an accurate representation of how units perform in a run compared to each other?

Yes. Using the parameters that are detailed in the OP. I'm not sure why this is so difficult to understand.

[Redwall]

If we really wanted an "accurate" representation of gameplay, we would allow the player to chain together Rescues and Galeforces. SDS stated in one of the earlier pages that he imposed a "[gentleperson's] agreement" against such tactics.

The end goal should not necessarily be an accurate representation of what the developers allowed. The efficient-play imperative in the tier list isn't something that the developers imposed on the game; it is something the tier list stewards impose for the sake of a) making the game interesting and b) exposing the differences between characters. Efficient play isn't "accurate" in the sense that it's actually representative of how most FE players enjoy the game, yet we assume it anyway because, y'know, inefficient play appeals less to the tier list stewards.

[Florete]

"Here" meaning "somewhere in a relatively populated city in America".

I'll admit I don't know how common wireless access is in other parts of the world, but I can't imagine it's tough for 95% of people who will visit this forum to get wireless access for long enough to get the wireless content in this game.

While eschewing Anna shops and event-tile weapons may not produce accurate playthroughs, they will produce (relatively) precise playthroughs. The tier list already allows for a fair bit of grey area; allowing the aforementioned things will only make characters harder to tier.

It's already enough of a chore to tier as is, so why make it even harder to do so? Besides, we'd have to be assuming the merchant pops up in a location where they have master seals or second seals AND that they have them in stock - doesn't sound reasonable to me.

This is and has always been simply the nature of Fire Emblem tiers.

@Bolded: that is literally every chapter up to 10. On every single playthrough I've done where I didn't bumrush the game in half an hour, I always saw at least one of each Seal by the time it would be relevant. This game already relies a lot on random chance from level ups. Assuming the player gets at least one extra Master/Second Seal a little early isn't out of line.

If we really wanted an "accurate" representation of gameplay, we would allow the player to chain together Rescues and Galeforces. SDS stated in one of the earlier pages that he imposed a "[gentleperson's] agreement" against such tactics.

The end goal should not necessarily be an accurate representation of what the developers allowed. The efficient-play imperative in the tier list isn't something that the developers imposed on the game; it is something the tier list stewards impose for the sake of a) making the game interesting and b) exposing the differences between characters. Efficient play isn't "accurate" in the sense that it's actually representative of how most FE players enjoy the game, yet we assume it anyway because, y'know, inefficient play appeals less to the tier list stewards.

What I'm proposing doesn't fall outside the realm of efficient, it just allows the player to use readily-available resources. Eliminating Galeforce is probably understandable (really depends, though), but nothing else I'm bringing up is so broken. While efficiency is obviously not going to be 100% accurate to your everyday player, it is supposed to reflect natural play as much as possible.

Edited April 28, 2013 by Red Fox of Fire

[Shadow Mir]

I'll admit I don't know how common wireless access is in other parts of the world, but I can't imagine it's tough for 95% of people who will visit this forum to get wireless access for long enough to get the wireless content in this game.

This is and has always been simply the nature of Fire Emblem tiers.

@Bolded: that is literally every chapter up to 10. On every single playthrough I've done where I didn't bumrush the game in half an hour, I always saw at least one of each Seal by the time it would be relevant. This game already relies a lot on random chance from level ups. Assuming the player gets at least one extra Master/Second Seal a little early isn't out of line.

What I'm proposing doesn't fall outside the realm of efficient, it just allows the player to use readily-available resources. Eliminating Galeforce is probably understandable (really depends, though), but nothing else I'm bringing up is so broken. While efficiency is obviously not going to be 100% accurate to your everyday player, it is supposed to reflect natural play as much as possible.

I can't argue there, but what I do have issues with is assuming that one particular item out of 19 possible items will be on sale when a merchant shows up.

[Jediabiwan]

Spotpass shops are an interesting question, but I'm leaning towards the side that thinks they should be banned. They seem to just be extras that aren't meant to be included in the main game. It we did include spotpass shops it seems like we should allow hiring spotpass characters. Are there many that would actually be worth it to hire despite their lack of supports?

[riariadne]

Anna shops are unnecessary variables that aren't possible to rely on at all. It just throws more up to chance, and allows the potential of stupid things like "x is better than y but only if you get a second seal before chapter z". Then the potential for statboosters and other things is thrown in as well later. Skirmishes are worse, as they'll can accelerate the rate of Renown items, and make the differences between characters less notable if they're at an inflated level/ have more supports/ able to use and have better weapons, etc. Tier lists should be based on things that can be emulated.

[Redwall]

I wasn't implying that Anna shops and event-tile weapons go against the spirit of efficient play; my point was that just because options like these in the game exist doesn't mean that we should assume them.

I agree that these things aren't really game-breaking (though I can't comment on the Spotpass items, as I've only seen a few of the shops). My problem is that these options introduce a strong amount of variance during the early- and mid-game, enough to make character tiering that much fuzzier. The way things are in the game, not only does what you get matter; when you get it also changes how effective it will be; and due to the high emphasis on enemy-phase combat and super-units in this game, a clutch weapon-get early on in the game may well boost a character to well above what he or she would end up on a tier list, even one accounting for the mean case. Constructing a tier list with these things is certainly possible, and it wouldn't go against the efficient-play directive, but such a tier list would generally do a worse job accurately predicting character value in playthroughs abiding by the new rule set than would the current tier list at doing the same task for the current rule set.

[riariadne]

I was responding more to kirsche. I don't think I disagreed with that second paragraph anywhere. The spotpass items allow stuff like being able to buy certain types of weapons like silvers and braves much earlier than they would be available otherwise, but they're not random at all. Don't know what people think of that. I wouldn't be too upset to see it go either way.

[Florete]

Anna shops are unnecessary variables that aren't possible to rely on at all.

I've relied on them for Master Seals and not been disappointed once yet.

But okay, even if we do eliminate Merchant/event tiles (which I don't completely agree with but understand), Bonus Box and Spotpass team shopping should still be allowable. Nothing random there.

[riariadne]

I didn't encounter a merchant with change seals or master seals at all before Chapter 12 in my first run, and I didn't exactly play through at lightning speed. The thing that bothers me the most is that it allows screwing around in real time potentially for a long period of time to affect the gameplay by getting however many Master Seals/ Second Seals/ whatevers to get by.

Bonus Box/ spotpass, okay.

[Shadow Mir]

I've relied on them for Master Seals and not been disappointed once yet.

But okay, even if we do eliminate Merchant/event tiles (which I don't completely agree with but understand), Bonus Box and Spotpass team shopping should still be allowable. Nothing random there.

Bonus Box, okay. Spotpass shopping, however, sounds like it'd only open another can of worms.

Edited April 28, 2013 by Levant Fortner

[Florete]

I didn't encounter a merchant with change seals or master seals at all before Chapter 12 in my first run, and I didn't exactly play through at lightning speed. The thing that bothers me the most is that it allows screwing around in real time potentially for a long period of time to affect the gameplay by getting however many Master Seals/ Second Seals/ whatevers to get by.

Bonus Box/ spotpass, okay.

Money is still a limited resource.

[OrangeCrush980]

Allowing Spotpass shops means allowing buyable Eirika's Sword, Celica's Gale, and Brave Weapons as early as chapter 4.