Elieson Posted April 29, 2013 Share Posted April 29, 2013 (edited) Then we are likely looking at Avatar!Nah, Avatar!Kjelle, Avatar!Gerome, Etc? That's what this sounds like to me Edited April 29, 2013 by Elieson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da Bear Posted April 29, 2013 Share Posted April 29, 2013 Then we are likely looking at Avatar!Nah, Avatar!Kjelle, Avatar!Gerome, Etc? That's what this sounds like to me Tiering the children with Avatar as father direct make sense to me.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elieson Posted April 29, 2013 Share Posted April 29, 2013 No I mean are we looking at this like who is avatar the best dad/mom for, then working our way down the list of potential parents? I mean Avatar is the better parent anyway, why not sift Avatar out then work the rest. What about kid parents? That goes even deeper into a struggle of tiering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da Bear Posted April 29, 2013 Share Posted April 29, 2013 No I mean are we looking at this like who is avatar the best dad/mom for, then working our way down the list of potential parents? I mean Avatar is the better parent anyway, why not sift Avatar out then work the rest. What about kid parents? That goes even deeper into a struggle of tiering. Okay, I was pretty certain I understood your post wrong.. I would say Avatar should marry someone who joins early giving us pretty much another Morgan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fir Coat Posted April 29, 2013 Share Posted April 29, 2013 (edited) You only really need one broken unit though, and Donnel!Morgan is the most broken. There is a reason they aren't tiered.To be more specific, you have to consider the cost of getting say Avatar!Kjelle against the benefit of every other Avatar pairing of both genders. You have to weigh the benefits of say Avatar + Chrom giving you two great kids vs. Chrom + Sully or Sumia and Avatar + Donnel giving you two good kids and one unstoppable powerhouse. Edited April 29, 2013 by IsAnthraxBayad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted April 29, 2013 Share Posted April 29, 2013 That is why I propose we take a look at each child, decide the single best possible combination of parents (and possibly siblings with Morgan and Lucina) in addition to recruitment time and anything gained from each child's chapter as well. We can start with Morgan first if you guys want. The problem with this, from my POV, is that trying to integrate the children into the tier list would be nearly impossible for the aforementioned reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted April 29, 2013 Share Posted April 29, 2013 Anna shops are unnecessary variables that aren't possible to rely on at all. It just throws more up to chance, and allows the potential of stupid things like "x is better than y but only if you get a second seal before chapter z". Why is that stupid? Why is that qualitatively less stupid than "x is better than y but only if there isn't serious competition for the first second seal in chapter z"? Why is it stupid to point out that if there is a Second Seal in the shops, Miriel is a better character? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riariadne Posted April 29, 2013 Share Posted April 29, 2013 Resource allocation has always been something up for debate in every FE game. Distributing resources that may or may not even exist is harder. How likely is it that a Second Seal from a Merchant will exist by chapter whatever? Should some amount of real time spent screwing around be a potential factor in items existing? Should people just assume a Second Seal exists by a certain point even though it might not at all in someone else's playthrough? Second Seals simply can't be relied on, so are we going to start tiering characters on the possibility that an item might exist when they need it to? I don't see why this is suddenly Miriel exclusive, either. Vaike is another unit who wouldn't mind a Second Seal, too, so he can go Barbarian and fix his speed problem and then focus on a pairup for durability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Folt Posted April 29, 2013 Share Posted April 29, 2013 Why is that stupid? Why is that qualitatively less stupid than "x is better than y but only if there isn't serious competition for the first second seal in chapter z"? Why is it stupid to point out that if there is a Second Seal in the shops, Miriel is a better character? Because that Second Seal isn't there all the time, in comparison to the Second Seals you can get, which means you may not get it in the time needed to make that difference be worth anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted April 29, 2013 Share Posted April 29, 2013 Why is that stupid? Why is that qualitatively less stupid than "x is better than y but only if there isn't serious competition for the first second seal in chapter z"? Why is it stupid to point out that if there is a Second Seal in the shops, Miriel is a better character? In addition to agreeing with the two before me, I think an argument that rides on a Second Seal being sold by a merchant is inherently flawed to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fir Coat Posted April 29, 2013 Share Posted April 29, 2013 (edited) I don't see why this is suddenly Miriel exclusive, either. Vaike is another unit who wouldn't mind a Second Seal, too, so he can go Barbarian and fix his speed problem and then focus on a pairup for durability. Why on earth would he move further away from Hero, the game's best non-mounted physical class? Edited April 29, 2013 by IsAnthraxBayad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Folt Posted April 29, 2013 Share Posted April 29, 2013 Why on earth would he move further away from Hero, the game's best non-mounted physical class? I can think of two reasons: 1. Barbarian is speedy as fuck. (Well, speedier than Fighter, which is the point I'm trying to make.) 2. Barbarian gives Strength and Speed, which syenergizes well with stout, slow units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkhead Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 So if there's a H5 and Lunatic tier list for FE11 and FE12 respectably, why not one for FE13's LM? I doubt it's harder than the other ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Horace Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 the h5 lists for fe11 might as well be like shiida jeigan and warpers and fe12 isn't much different in the very shallow unit pool regard fe13 is much the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitoari Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 FE Lunatic Tier Usable Tier (in no particular order) Avatar Frederick Wyvern!Panne Nowi (by extension gregor) Anna Libra Cordelia Tiki maaaybe one or two I forgot Avatar's Bestie Tier Chrom Unusable Tier everyone else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadykid Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 FE Lunatic Tier Usable Tier (in no particular order) Avatar Frederick Wyvern!Panne Nowi (by extension gregor) Anna Libra Cordelia Tiki Lucina Avatar's Bestie Tier Chrom Unusable Tier everyone else fixed and Morgan if we bother with the other kids Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 So if there's a H5 and Lunatic tier list for FE11 and FE12 respectably, why not one for FE13's LM? I doubt it's harder than the other ones. A Lunatic tier list wouldn't have any meaningful discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 In time, I think a Lunatic list will work just as well as any other. We just need to get a better grasp on the mode and how to tier this game properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkhead Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 I just wish to get past my first run (See: Ch. 18) and get to LM to see it all with my own eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwall Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 (edited) The main impediment to a Lunatic tier list is that although everyone--except for maybe Donnel, and even that's a maybe--is usable, most people (including me) eschew the characters who aren't super good, and hence don't have enough experience with them in Lunatic for precise tiering. Another user on this forum, XeKr, has gone through a Lunatic run without Avatar/Nowi/Panne, which probably qualifies him to speak about less-useful characters like SM Gaius and Wyvern Lon'qu (which he employed in his run), but it doesn't seem like many other people have done similar runs. Edited April 30, 2013 by Redwall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XeKr Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 (edited) <_< I've been refraining from tierlisting primarily because nowadays I lack the time (and interest) to make any serious arguments or proposals. Plus, I think I tend toward a much stricter reliability+turn count metric than is otherwise accepted. It's still quite awkward to see Olivia down in the bottom of C tier... At any rate, everyone is certainly usable in Lunatic, and it's very easy to make them usable in "casual" play. Reclass early, then stay unpromoted as long as possible. The main issue is Avatar is so far beyond everyone that, as far as I know, she and her children completely overcentralize any kind of efficient play. This both is and isn't a problem depending on one's tiering philosophy/standards, and I have little desire to get into any of those arguments atm. Though stuff like allowing more Spotpass is one promising avenue to making others better (or perhaps not). I do think a Lunatic list would be more interesting, compared to Hard imo, since I don't think it's reliable to bumrush all the latter half bosskills without Nosferatu/Sol, yet those classes generally give up tons of Move in return. So maybe there's some faster, reliable completions out there that actually require some fun tactics/team compositions. So, yes, perhaps interesting in the future where I have more time. >_> Edited April 30, 2013 by XeKr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vorena Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 That is why I propose we take a look at each child, decide the single best possible combination of parents (and possibly siblings with Morgan and Lucina) in addition to recruitment time and anything gained from each child's chapter as well. We can start with Morgan first if you guys want. To me, the obvious structure for tiering the kids would be to isolate each from the other and assume that only one child is being used at a time for a particular run. For example, do not try to use arguments that we have access to Tiki's Tear from Morgan's chapter if we are tiering Gerome. In Gerome's case, Morgan's chapter was never completed. Secondly, it would be beneficial to have an idea of when certain paralogues could be completed naturally. As I said before, Morgan/Kjelle are completely able to be recruited as soon as chapter 13 is done. Their chapters are plenty easy to complete while Gerome's chapter would take much longer to finish. This would give a good idea of earliest possible recruitment. The more chapters they have, the more valuable they would be. The only problem would be something like Henry!Avatar would never be completed as early as chapter 13. From there, you start working through the benefits of a different parent. Later join time, worse the parent. Stuff like that. At the very least, you could attempt to tier children isolated from the main tier list in a separate one and merely tier the pairings. Obviously, Avatar will be the best pairing for any individual child since the passing of veteran is ridiculous to their ability to grow and reduce their "lag" time (I suppose there is the argument of skills being a resource and why would veteran always be assumed to be passed on). However, something like Morgan (Aversa!Avatar) would be dead last due to availability being crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sol Hiryu Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 The main problem with the kids, in my mind, is that in any sort of efficient playthrough that eschews grinding, you're never going to be able to get every child paralogue. Moreover, with the sheer amount of parental combinations, it's very difficult to make direct comparisons between them for proper tiering. It's possible we can consider them to be tiered in a void like we did to transferred stat characters on the RD list, but that opens up more complications. As I mentioned before, the kids are "pseudo-tiered" within their current list, so their eventual integration with the main list proper probably won't look too much different than it already is. Inigo might get his own special bottom tier though, just for laughs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vorena Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 The main problem with the kids, in my mind, is that in any sort of efficient playthrough that eschews grinding, you're never going to be able to get every child paralogue. Moreover, with the sheer amount of parental combinations, it's very difficult to make direct comparisons between them for proper tiering. It's possible we can consider them to be tiered in a void like we did to transferred stat characters on the RD list, but that opens up more complications. As I mentioned before, the kids are "pseudo-tiered" within their current list, so their eventual integration with the main list proper probably won't look too much different than it already is. Inigo might get his own special bottom tier though, just for laughs. Again, why I brought up the idea of kiddy farming in a vacuum. You only raise one kid per play-through. Any pair-up would ideally be possible. You remove the problem of gaining more chapters for completion by having to do all paralogues in a run. Yeah, there are a ton of combinations. 6, 13, 14, 14, 14, 5, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, +whatever combinations possible for Morgan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sol Hiryu Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 One per playthrough is bit extreme since that immediately places the onus of "well this kid isn't morgan" onto the rest of the kids. It probably wouldn't affect their placement, but to limit it like that isn't really conductive to discussion. After all, why would you ever take Brady or Inigo over Morgan or Kjelle? Given how the paralogues work, I can easily see three kids being available per playthrough, which would sidestep the issue of Morgan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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