FE: Awakening Hard Mode Tier List

[Sol Hiryu]

er....doesn't this fall under the "recruitment costs are not counted" thing from previous tier lists

It usually would, but kid paralogues operate under a different set of conditions from other lists, so it's entirely contingent on how long it would take for a kid's parents to S-rank. This is not a problem at all for most earlygame units, but certain others will definitely run into that issue.

In my view, kids will have recruitment costs associated with them due to the way you can recruit them, but it ranges from 'irrelevant' (top half of the list) to 'eugenic pool failure' (bottom half).

[Seven Deadly Sins]

ok so apparently subscriptions to threads got poofed in the board swap and i didnt notice

A couple things.

1. If Fred goes down... then to where?
2. I'm still not sure how I feel about Sumia / Cordelia > Lon'qu. They give largely the same bullshit pair up bonuses, but flying suuuuuuuucks in this game because every damn mission is jam packed with assholes carrying bows. I do like the support list for Cordelia a bit more (not Sumia, christ why did she get jack shit for partners), but I'm not super sold on her in general.
3. Vaike > Miriel seems fine to me.
4. Simply having Inigo exist and then actually recruiting him is such a pain in the ass for so little payoff that I just dont see him anywhere else other than the bottom of the list.

[MercuryHg34]

Fred should be bottom of S at most, as someone mentioned earlier he's still marginally better than everyone in A tier.

Flying units are not so vulnerable to bows as you think. Even considering wind mages you don't see many of either on one single map at a time until the latter end of midgame. And in many cases these units are all in one general area of the map, so as a flier it's easy to work elsewhere until your party takes them out.

[Sol Hiryu]

Pushing Frederick down to the bottom of S would probably be good...but I'm really not convinced Lucina (Avatar) is better than him, considering that she doesn't exist for half the game. Having her drop to top of A would probably be a better solution, but I can't really say that for certain until we know how much of an impact she makes after she joins.

The pegs can probably go up, though. Lon'qu is good, but he suffers the same way Chrom does in that he's a better support partner than a lead unit, only he doesn't have Chrom's incredible support abilities. Swordlock sucks big time as well.

[Florete]

I'm still not sure how I feel about Sumia / Cordelia > Lon'qu. They give largely the same bullshit pair up bonuses, but flying suuuuuuuucks in this game because every damn mission is jam packed with assholes carrying bows. I do like the support list for Cordelia a bit more (not Sumia, christ why did she get jack shit for partners), but I'm not super sold on her in general.

Then wtf is Panne doing so high? This isn't nearly as much of a problem in hard as it is in Lunatic, and even there having a unit or two with flight is still a good idea.

Simply having Inigo exist and then actually recruiting him is such a pain in the ass for so little payoff that I just dont see him anywhere else other than the bottom of the list.

Unless it's already been decided otherwise, I don't think what it takes to recruit them should count against them except for what it does to their availability. Brady's not exactly going to be around a lot longer than Inigo, all things considered, and is he really doing more with his availability?

[SB.]

Fliers have pair up partners to swap around to when there are archers around (Frederick and Stahl come to mind) so I'm not sure why this is such a big issue.

Lon'qu isn't even that good a unit aside from nice pairup bonuses either.

[Interceptor]

Then wtf is Panne doing so high? This isn't nearly as much of a problem in hard as it is in Lunatic, and even there having a unit or two with flight is still a good idea.

Seriously, let's have some consistency here. At least with Cordelia/Sumia, they don't get automatically exploded by wind magic, despite effective mt, due to Pegasus RES. Panne not only gets blown up by wind, but pretty much anything that hits RES will crater her HP.

[PKL]

Anyway, being serious now, if anything can be taken from my run to this tier list, is that if Fred is going to be used seriously in more than just earlygame, a reclass to Paladin does him wonders (spd+3 just from reclass alone). Spd tonics and a spd support (probably Sumia since Chrom is likely taken by Avatar and Lon'qu isnt into males) is all he would need also to still be relevant. As for the pegs vs Lon'qu, imo, Cordelia > Sumia as a combatant. Her better str def vs Sumia's superflous spd gives her the edge even though she comes later. Sumia is no slouch either, as base Sumia is actually pretty competent with a Fred or Kellam support. Stahl Cordelia is honestly one of the most broken pairs in the game. Also panne is known as the unit that cares not for bows and wind with the proper set up. Literally, she can, literally, be invincible as a Quick Burn Wyvern Lord and a spd pairup. Who cares about that stuff if they wont ever hit?

Edited May 1, 2013 by Peekayell

[Interceptor]

Does not solve Frederick's EXP problems. He takes waaaay too much in the way of resources to get to an acceptable level of power. When we can remove Frederick and get two Fred-comparable units in return, that's a Bad Thing™ for him.

[Elieson]

Glad to see that Fred turned out strong in your Fred solo.

That wonderful +3 speed....when does he get it in a non-solo environment?

[Shadow Mir]

Anyway, being serious now, if anything can be taken from my run to this tier list, is that if Fred is going to be used seriously in more than just earlygame, a reclass to Paladin does him wonders (spd+3 just from reclass alone).

Hold it right there. Can anything from a solo run even be applied to a tier list??

Edited May 1, 2013 by Levant Fortner

[Florete]

Also panne is known as the unit that cares not for bows and wind with the proper set up. Literally, she can, literally, be invincible as a Quick Burn Wyvern Lord and a spd pairup. Who cares about that stuff if they wont ever hit?

No one is actually arguing against Panne here, just asking for consistency. But I don't think your "literally" is accurate unless Panne is reducing every enemy's hit chance to 0%.

[Titamon]

I'm very confused by this Fred solo and what you were trying to prove PKL

You realize that in an efficient run Fredrick is not going to gain that much exp, because now he's sharing kills with others right?

[PKL]

Does not solve Frederick's EXP problems. He takes waaaay too much in the way of resources to get to an acceptable level of power. When we can remove Frederick and get two Fred-comparable units in return, that's a Bad Thing™ for him.

Its not the first time people state a Jeigan takes away from others exp. Youre seriously overblowing how much exp he takes out of the rest of the party. The only issue I see with using Fred is boss kill exp (which is dramatically cut compared to other units) but then dont give him unnecesary bosskills. He can thrive on normal enemy exp. Once he gets to Level 10, reclass to Paladin, youll see. I know an "efficient" run would prove my point more, but with a LTC FE12 run, drafts and final exams soon I dont have time for that so I did the solo for funsies.

Glad to see that Fred turned out strong in your Fred solo.

That wonderful +3 speed....when does he get it in a non-solo environment?

Once he gets to Level 10. His average spd at Level 10 is about 14.5 which with +3 from paladin would be 17.5. Add a sumia support and youre looking at 25.5 spd, which could translate to 26 rounded up. If he reclasses to Paladin sometime before Chapter 17, hes cool. Not to mention, theres tonics and the like.

Hold it right there. Can anything from a solo run even be applied to a tier list??

No, but I did learn Paladin is a good option for Fred.

No one is actually arguing against Panne here, just asking for consistency. But I don't think your "literally" is accurate unless Panne is reducing every enemy's hit chance to 0%.

She is. Literally, try it out yourself. Theyre no longer a threat with quick burn, Tantivy and Lon'qu support. Of course, it also depends on her level. If she's staying true to the usual super speedy Panne, she will be facing almost 0 to 0 hit. Ive had her face 20 hit from rexcaliburs before in C20. In a slower setting, I imagine its even better.

I'm very confused by this Fred solo and what you were trying to prove PKL

You realize that in an efficient run Fredrick is not going to gain that much exp, because now he's sharing kills with others right?

I realize that. He should still get enough exp to reclass if you're using him...but most people her are like "oh noes, Jeigan must avoid giving him exp". Its a bit unfair is all.

[Interceptor]

Its not the first time people state a Jeigan takes away from others exp. Youre seriously overblowing how much exp he takes out of the rest of the party.

No, you're underestimating it. Frederick starts out getting 11 EXP a kill, compared to 20-30 for other units (and 30-45+ for Avatar). This means that with the EXP that I am giving Fred, I could train Stahl/Sully to replace Fred and add another unit at the same time, like Cordelia. Two units with comparable (and eventually better) stats are better than one ball of mediocrity.

Feeding Fred is good for Fred, but bad for his army. You saw it yourself: any efficient crew would stomp all over your solo turncounts, because you have too many resources focused into a single unit.

She is. Literally, try it out yourself. Theyre no longer a threat with quick burn, Tantivy and Lon'qu support. Of course, it also depends on her level.

And therein lies the rub. First you have to get her to level 10, then reclass her, then level her up again, then promote her, then level her up some more. All this time when you are building up Panne, she is Not Invincible™, and subject to getting blicked by all manner of bows and magic. We can't just ignore her vulnerable period.

[Junkhead]

Also panne is known as the unit that cares not for bows and wind with the proper set up. Who cares about that stuff if they wont ever hit?

Uh...no, Panne's still significantly vulnerable to Archers and Wind Magic even as a tough wyern, at least until she promotes.

[SB.]

I don't think losing one of the Cavs is a terrible trade. And that's really all that you lose, one of Sully or Stahl. You can still use Cordelia or another flier - he doesn't steal that much experience. It's a good unit for a good unit. PKL's argument isn't that soloing with Fred is faster, it's that going Paladin is an easy way to make sure that Fred stays relevant.

I seriously don't get why Lon'qu is that high for +5 speed on a pairup.

[HeroMystic]

Fred actually is really good as a Paladin, from firsthand experience. He gets additional speed and resistance as well as extra MOV, and you already have Luna so the best skill from Great Knight is transferred over. Furthermore, he no longer gets screwed from having two weakness types. Paladin is probably his best option.

The problem for Fred is this is Hard Mode, not Lunatic. Fred can be trained sure, but so can everyone else, and they're all better than him once they reach roughly level 10. He really doesn't have anything over Stahl and Sully outside of access to early high-tier weapons which are banned from this tier list (due to no bonus box or event tiles), and Luna is just superfluous until the Midgame. Everyone here seems to be overestimating the difficulty of Hard Mode.

[Redwall]

Assuming the site growths of 65/50/55 Str/Spd/Def growths as a Great Knight, --/15 GK/1 Paladin Fred has 20.1 Str, 20 Spd, and 17.7 Def, all unremarkable numbers when you account also for the fact that the Second Seal further slows Fred's rate of EXP gain. Pkl conveniently omits Fred's immediate drops in Str/Def upon reclassing to Paladin. Although Fred should remain in the higher part of S tier, if not outright claiming the top spot for his earlygame contributions alone, there's no question that the EXP after the earlygame is better spent on other units. If anything, going to Paladin in a standard playthrough hurts more than it helps due to the drops in Str and Def.

Chapters 13, 14, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, and 25 are all assassination missions. When playing at a brisk pace, Fred can't come close to gaining a level in any of these maps; he no longer has enough relative strength to take on a million guys during a single enemy phase, whereas your other team members a) actually will have the necessary stats and b) gain more EXP per kill anyway.

Speaking of assassination missions, those certainly favor the Pegs more than they favor Lon'qu. Although they certainly won't be doing much enemy-phase combat in bow-heavy maps like 21, the mobility provided by Sumia and Cordelia (not just for killing the boss, but also for getting the treasure in Chs 14, 16, 17, 20, and the holy weapons in 22) is preferable to the combat and dodge-tanking provided by Lon'qu. They're also great for taking out Valkyries (forged Beast Killer) in 17.

Edited May 1, 2013 by Redwall

[SB.]

The strength thing isn't a big deal due to just being able to transition onto stronger weapons/tonics, though def is an issue.

[riariadne]

I don't see why Frederick would want to wait until --/15 to reclass when Dual Guard+ is not a very good skill

[HeroMystic]

I had similar thoughts. There is no reason why Fred would want to wait till level 15 to reclass. Luna is all he wants from GK, and Aegis is a far better skill to have.

[Redwall]

Missing the point. If he reclasses before --/15 (at, say, --/10), he just puts up with bad EXP growth for an even longer time due to the Second Seal's influence on his internal level.

also, what better weapons? Forged Hand Axes won't work in Fred's favor since a) they're really expensive and b) Sully, Stahl, and Panne can use them more effectively anyway. You get one Short Axe in Ch 14, and I don't recall seeing any Spears until lategame. As for Silvers, Discipline means the Cavs won't need very many chapters to use them. They'll also be dealing more damage since they actually have a noticeable rate of EXP growth and since the Master Seal gives them promotion bonuses.

Str tonics are not a point in Fred's favor since Sully, Stahl, and Panne can also use them.

Edited May 1, 2013 by Redwall

[ZemZem]

Vaike > Cherche? I know that Vaike has good earlygame utility by giving quite a bit of STR in Pair Ups, but is he really that better than Cherche, who gets going a lot easier (than Vaike, at least. I had no problem training Cherche, but Vaike gave me some issues) and flies?

[General Horace]

Honestly i think Fred might as well stay as a GK, so at the very least he can dual attack with a hammer or other effective weapon at the very least. Dual Guard+ isn't a terrible skill either, and it's not like he's going to get to a level 15 paladin (even level 5 is stretching it) as a Paladin or other class.