FE: Awakening Hard Mode Tier List

[Da Bear]

Problem is actually getting Kellam to level 10. He can't kill anything and his exp gain as a partner is poor.

Tiki is pretty damn tanky when she shows up. She can pretty much solo her starting chapter according to various sources, she has good 2-range damage and very high defensive growths. It doesn't take her too long to eclipse Kellam in terms of tankiness because she is also tanky against magic damage. She also has much better movement. Unlike Kellam, she is also a viable partner for Robin. Nowi can potentially become a Wyvern Rider, an excellent class, while Kellam's reclass options are dire. So I think that Nowi a tier above Kellam is pretty justified.

I think Nowi should be above her current position..

Getting Kellam to ten seems worth it to me but I can understand others disagreeing.

I also agree that Tiki is great at base, my problem Is her late join time.. Edited May 2, 2013 by bearclaw13

[Interceptor]

Not easy to get Kellam to level 10, unless he's paired with a very active Lead unit. Never managed it in my run. I had my Kellam with Cordelia, who had to be used sparingly due to being a flier (contrary to the breathless claims of Panne fanbois, bow weakness actually does matter in this game). I think that you need to go out of your way early on (while he can still deal damage) to get Kellam a few kills towards that five-level hill that he has to climb. He's not at all like Chrom, who Dual Attacks so often that he can actually level up in someone's pocket to some extent.

Also, N.O.W.I. is definitely at least A-tier. Permanent 1-2 range, levels incredibly fast, excellent growths, gets tinked by everyone and their mother. Someday, the people here will figure out that ORKOing everything and never dying is a positive thing.

[Da Bear]

Not easy to get Kellam to level 10, unless he's paired with a very active Lead unit. Never managed it in my run. I had my Kellam with Cordelia, who had to be used sparingly due to being a flier (contrary to the breathless claims of Panne fanbois, bow weakness actually does matter in this game). I think that you need to go out of your way early on (while he can still deal damage) to get Kellam a few kills towards that five-level hill that he has to climb. He's not at all like Chrom, who Dual Attacks so often that he can actually level up in someone's pocket to some extent.

Also, N.O.W.I. is definitely at least A-tier. Permanent 1-2 range, levels incredibly fast, excellent growths, gets tinked by everyone and their mother. Someday, the people here will figure out that ORKOing everything and never dying is a positive thing.

I guess, my Kellam thing was more of an inquiry than anything.

I'm with you all the way on Nowi.

[Anouleth]

Not easy to get Kellam to level 10, unless he's paired with a very active Lead unit. Never managed it in my run. I had my Kellam with Cordelia, who had to be used sparingly due to being a flier (contrary to the breathless claims of Panne fanbois, bow weakness actually does matter in this game). I think that you need to go out of your way early on (while he can still deal damage) to get Kellam a few kills towards that five-level hill that he has to climb. He's not at all like Chrom, who Dual Attacks so often that he can actually level up in someone's pocket to some extent.

Also, N.O.W.I. is definitely at least A-tier. Permanent 1-2 range, levels incredibly fast, excellent growths, gets tinked by everyone and their mother. Someday, the people here will figure out that ORKOing everything and never dying is a positive thing.

Some queries I have about Nowi:

-Nowi is stuck with her Dragonstone until Chapter 12. Doesn't this limit the amount of powerlevelling that can be done with her?

-Nowi seems to have bad speed (only a smidgen above Kellam's).

-Does Manakete have inherently better EXP gain than other unpromoted classes?

Edited May 2, 2013 by Anouleth

[Interceptor]

Some queries I have about Nowi:

-Nowi is stuck with her Dragonstone until Chapter 12. Doesn't this limit the amount of powerlevelling that can be done with her?

-Nowi seems to have bad speed (only a smidgen above Kellam's).

-Does Manakete have inherently better EXP gain than other unpromoted classes?

- Nowi's combat limitations due to her single Dragonstone is a thing, but 50 uses does actually last you until you can secure a steady supply. She doesn't need to be "powerleveled" all that much, since she's a unit that contributes immediately.

- Her SPD is horrible, but she levels quickly and has a decent growth rate. SPD issues are solved with 1) a SPD support (Gregor is her best partner, since they are effectively an auto-C), 2) SPD tonics, and 3) a potential Wing if she gets screwed.

- Manaketes level at the same rate as unpromoted units of the same level, but Nowi starts at level 3 in Ch8 and therefore basically rocket-packs her way through the first few levels. After her first Second Seal, she's still leveling pretty quickly as an effective-level ~15 unit.

[The Fir Coat]

Nowi does have some pretty awesome growths. She has problems with some of the bulkier enemies late, but she's in no danger as her defenses are amazing and her offense isn't a huge problem with Lon'qu or Gregor as a partner. Wyrmslayer or whatever it's called is pretty cool when Wyvern Lords are on the prowl, and she has no problems with mages and heros/warriors. I can't really see her below Miriel, Vaike or Cherche honestly, and she definitely can outlast Libra's usefulness although he does help a lot when he joins.

Incidentally, if the kids ever actually get tiered I can see Donnel!Morgan being above the Avatar. Even if Donnel is level ~5 just from dual attacks and such, Morgan is rocketing out of the gate getting a few easy levels in his joining chapter and if you make him a Cavalier instantly he'll quickly be looking at all 0s from enemies and one-rounding them with Javelins as a Paladin. I haven't tried making him a Wyvern Rider yet, but I have a feeling it will go about the same way minus his starting Weapon rank.

[General Horace]

Nowi definately has issues doubling Heroes as a manakete. They don't pose much of a threat to her true, but she's not going to be doubling them either.

[Da Bear]

Nowi definately has issues doubling Heroes as a manakete. They don't pose much of a threat to her true, but she's not going to be doubling them either.

True, but dual attack and pair up make defense >>>> offense in this game.

Edited May 3, 2013 by bearclaw13

[General Horace]

Why is Sully > Stahl then? Or Kellam lurking down in C tier?

Or even Tiki? She's pretty similar to Nowi upon jointime.

Edited May 3, 2013 by General Horace

[Da Bear]

Why is Sully > Stahl then? Or Kellam lurking down in C tier?

Or even Tiki? She's pretty similar to Nowi upon jointime.

Kellam lacks speed and resistance. Durability against Magic is still great to have.

Sully's defense isn't really that bad and her ability to support Chrom gives her nice dodging and attack is still nice to have.

Tiki is just coming late.

Edited May 3, 2013 by bearclaw13

[Interceptor]

Defense frequently IS offense in this game.

One of the things that makes Nowi such a great character in an efficient run, is that her concrete durability is such that she can face a dozen units or more on Enemy Phase and have 100% survival chances while wrecking face in the process. Frees up your other resources to do something else, since Nowi can handle herself; especially useful on Ch11 and Ch12 in particular.

[ZemZem]

I think that in order to answer this we need to decide exactly what level Vaike is achieving by her jointime. Also, just because a lot of better units that join earlier have low HP doesn't mean it isn't a problem for her considering her class.

I'll have to use Vaike seriously in order to compare him and Cherche (will be playing on Hard, Classic, LTC, no skirmishes), but unless someone brings up an argument proving Vaike's earlygame is better than the moment Cherche exists (and she's quite ready to go), I still think Cherche should go above Vaike.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Zeem

[Da Bear]

I think Nowi (to A), and to a lesser extent Gregor and Cherche going up makes sense.

Vaike > Miriel was pretty universally agreed on as well.

[Vorena]

It brings up another point. To directly compare, do you use both at the same time, or see what the both can do without the other available?

[Interceptor]

It brings up another point. To directly compare, do you use both at the same time, or see what the both can do without the other available?

Generally when comparing two units, you will want to put them in their best situation, which may or may not include playing them together. It's "Vaike's army" vs. "Miriel's army", or whatnot. And even if they are likely to be played together, they won't always be. The one constant is the unit being analyzed.

[Redwall]

It brings up another point. To directly compare, do you use both at the same time, or see what the both can do without the other available?

Here's how I see it.

Consider Vaike, Miriel, and some control team. Suppose someone playing at a brisk pace clears the game in x turns with Vaike + control team and in y turns with Miriel + control team, exerting equal effort in both cases. If x < y then Vaike should be tiered higher, and vice-versa.

Although this isn't a LTC tier list, I think it's appropriate for me to use a turn-shaving argument here. Turns expose other relevant differences between the units, especially if we're looking at rout maps, in which case the link between turns and combat is readily apparent in the example: if x < y then Vaike clearly offers more as a combatant than does Miriel.

[MercuryHg34]

The problem with that is that there are too many variables within the control itself; in separate playthroughs your "control" team will undoubtedly turn out noticeably different each time (note that I said noticeable, not drastic). You can't really consider it a control unless both units in question are used in the same playthrough. What we're really testing for is the overall contributions/types of contributions that unit made to the team, and then taking the specific traits of your playthrough that led to this conclusion and weighing everything against the other unit.

[PKL]

Defense frequently IS offense in this game.

One of the things that makes Nowi such a great character in an efficient run, is that her concrete durability is such that she can face a dozen units or more on Enemy Phase and have 100% survival chances while wrecking face in the process. Frees up your other resources to do something else, since Nowi can handle herself; especially useful on Ch11 and Ch12 in particular.

You're severely overrating the usefulness of a tank.

I cleared C11 and C12 faster than your nowi clear with Stahl and Cordelia. Who cares for defense if you still have enough to survive with other characters that have better offense?

[Da Bear]

You're severely overrating the usefulness of a tank.

I cleared C11 and C12 faster than your nowi clear with Stahl and Cordelia. Who cares for defense if you still have enough to survive with other characters that have better offense?

This tier list isn't LTC.. who cares about one or two turns?

[Interceptor]

You're severely overrating the usefulness of a tank.

No, what I said was entirely accurate. This game is best approached with a strong Enemy Phase, which requires things like 1) ability to counter effectively, 2) enough durability to survive, and 3) a high ORKO percentage. Nowi is a unit that's highly effective in all three areas, and she even has decent mobility. She is not just a tank.

I cleared C11 and C12 faster than your nowi clear with Stahl and Cordelia. Who cares for defense if you still have enough to survive with other characters that have better offense?

You seem to have some real difficulty with drawing useful conclusions. How is your Donnel training going?

[PKL]

Donnel can be trained? lol

[General Horace]

No, what I said was entirely accurate. This game is best approached with a strong Enemy Phase, which requires things like 1) ability to counter effectively, 2) enough durability to survive, and 3) a high ORKO percentage. Nowi is a unit that's highly effective in all three areas, and she even has decent mobility. She is not just a tank.

You seem to have some real difficulty with drawing useful conclusions. How is your Donnel training going?

you just described half of the game on hard mode, its nothing special.

[Redwall]

The problem with that is that there are too many variables within the control itself; in separate playthroughs your "control" team will undoubtedly turn out noticeably different each time (note that I said noticeable, not drastic). You can't really consider it a control unless both units in question are used in the same playthrough.

I see no reason to assume that the differences in "interaction effects" are as large as you claim them to be. For example, +Spd Pair Ups for Vaike are a dime a dozen.

What we're really testing for is the overall contributions/types of contributions that unit made to the team, and then taking the specific traits of your playthrough that led to this conclusion and weighing everything against the other unit.

I'm not disagreeing with you here. I just think turn counts offer a cleaner way of looking at things than do some of the arguments I've seen in the thread. This is a game full of rout maps and assassination missions; in these levels, turn counts have a much more direct relation to combat prowess, which is significant since most of the arguments in the thread are combat-related arguments.

This tier list isn't LTC.. who cares about one or two turns?

It depends. If Cordelia (pocket Stahl) can indeed save one or two turns over Nowi *without sacrificing reliability*, then I could see a case for Cordelia over Nowi. I haven't used either on Hard mode, so I can't say anything certain on Cordelia v. Nowi, but my hunch is that reliability does go down for Cordelia due to having to dodge bows and Wind. If Pkl has anything to say on this, I'd love to see it.

[PKL]

Dude, Cordelia hasnt seen a single bow. She just switches to Stahl. Who is also a ridiculously capable unit.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Peekayell

[Interceptor]

you just described half of the game on hard mode, its nothing special.

Sure, as long as by "half" you mean "considerably less than half". Most of the cast in this game has some sort of weakness in one of these areas, be it durability (avoid-based rather than concrete, or effective weaknesses), countering (weak or non-existent 1-2 range), or ORKO potential (various reasons). Or, they have some significant training ramp-up time that removes them from serious contribution for a while.

It depends. If Cordelia (pocket Stahl) can indeed save one or two turns over Nowi *without sacrificing reliability*, then I could see a case for Cordelia over Nowi. I haven't used either on Hard mode, so I can't say anything certain on Cordelia v. Nowi, but my hunch is that reliability does go down for Cordelia due to having to dodge bows and Wind. If Pkl has anything to say on this, I'd love to see it.

Apparently I was too subtle with the Donnel comment.

Comparing these two playthroughs doesn't lend itself towards any meaningful Nowi vs. Cordelia conclusions. Firstly, the armies around them are very different from each other, and in fact Cordelia was on Nowi's team where Nowi wasn't on Cordelia's team. Also, mine wasn't an LTC, it was a run that specifically eschewed solutions that didn't have high success probabilities (magic ninja dodges, Dual Strikes, etc). And finally... training Donnel. Turns out that he's so bad that he actually slows you down in any chapter where you try to get him meaningful EXP.