FE: Awakening Hard Mode Tier List

[Redwall]

Apparently I was too subtle with the Donnel comment.

Comparing these two playthroughs doesn't lend itself towards any meaningful Nowi vs. Cordelia conclusions. Firstly, the armies around them are very different from each other, and in fact Cordelia was on Nowi's team where Nowi wasn't on Cordelia's team. Also, mine wasn't an LTC, it was a run that specifically eschewed solutions that didn't have high success probabilities (magic ninja dodges, Dual Strikes, etc). And finally... training Donnel. Turns out that he's so bad that he actually slows you down in any chapter where you try to get him meaningful EXP.

I'm aware that your playthrough and PKL's playthrough used different teams; my implication was that if we set up a control team for the sake of comparing Nowi v. Cordelia, and if Cord/Stahl + control team saves a turn or so relative to Nowi/Gregor + control team *without sacrificing reliability* (I specifically said this, knowing this wasn't an LTC tier list), then that might be an argument in favor of Cord/Stahl's combat prowess and possible higher ranking.

[PKL]

I had forgotten you "used" Donnel in your run Interceptor. I didn't use Nowi in this one because I wanted to see how bad Ricken is. (imo, hes at the very least better than Virion, I have less issues training him than virion)

[Interceptor]

I'm aware that your playthrough and PKL's playthrough used different teams; my implication was that if we set up a control team for the sake of comparing Nowi v. Cordelia, and if Cord/Stahl + control team saves a turn or so relative to Nowi/Gregor + control team *without sacrificing reliability* (I specifically said this, knowing this wasn't an LTC tier list), then that might be an argument in favor of Cord/Stahl's combat prowess and possible higher ranking.

I wouldn't consider it a strong argument in either direction. First, we're not micromanaging turncounts here: no "shaves a turn in Chapter X" arguments are going to fly. Second, turncounts are at best a rough approximation; the difference between a 4-turn that ends on Enemy Phase and a 5-turn that ends with a single kill on Player Phase is really not that different at all (perhaps one crit or Dual Strike would have made the difference).

Thirdly, as you alluded to, reliability matters a lot and it's hard to quantify. To take the Nowi example, everything she touches is 100% reliable on the defensive side because her durability is the concrete variety (her offense can be variable to the extent that it might rely on Dual Strikes). How much is this worth over a series of dodges on an avoid-based unit that has, say, 80% success over a large number of trials? It's not an easy question to answer.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Interceptor

[Da Bear]

So I'm going to do a playlog to give more info on Cordelia vs. Nowi and Vaike vs. Cherche and I was planning these pairings.

Sully x Chrom

Stahl x Cordelia

Vaike x Cherche

Cordelia x Stahl

Nowi x Gregor

MU x Tharja

Wanted to see if these were well balanced for my plans.

[Redwall]

I wouldn't consider it a strong argument in either direction. First, we're not micromanaging turncounts here: no "shaves a turn in Chapter X" arguments are going to fly. Second, turncounts are at best a rough approximation; the difference between a 4-turn that ends on Enemy Phase and a 5-turn that ends with a single kill on Player Phase is really not that different at all (perhaps one crit or Dual Strike would have made the difference).

Thirdly, as you alluded to, reliability matters a lot and it's hard to quantify. To take the Nowi example, everything she touches is 100% reliable on the defensive side because her durability is the concrete variety (her offense can be variable to the extent that it might rely on Dual Strikes). How much is this worth over a series of dodges on an avoid-based unit that has, say, 80% success over a large number of trials? It's not an easy question to answer.

It's not a weak argument, just an incomplete one. Maybe we should settle this in the tiering philosophy thread.

So that this post isn't off-topic, what is the rationale for putting Olivia below Say'ri? I realize Olivia isn't very useful in this playstyle, but she certainly gives you more of a boost (for example, Dancing for Avatar gives you the chance to both Rally and attack) than does Say'ri, who has two support partners (one of whom comes very late, and the other of whom shouldn't need the +Spd boost) and who should be outclassed as a combatant by your other units.

[General Horace]

So I'm going to do a playlog to give more info on Cordelia vs. Nowi and Vaike vs. Cherche and I was planning these pairings.

Sully x Chrom

Stahl x Cordelia

Vaike x Cherche

Cordelia x Stahl

Nowi x Gregor

MU x Tharja

Wanted to see if these were well balanced for my plans.

I would say pair them up with people that aren't each other, but you're already pretty tight on deployment slots.

Edited May 3, 2013 by General Horace

[Da Bear]

I would say pair them up with people that aren't each other, but you're already pretty tight on deployment slots.

Well I'm trying to give them all good pairings but yeah Vaike x Cherche to compare them is kind of lopsided.

[General Horace]

Yeah I only suggested different pairings because in almost all the pairings there's going to be a more dominant unit any way you cut it.

Vaike does pretty well with Chrom, but that's a pretty heavily contested resource.

[Da Bear]

Yeah I only suggested different pairings because in almost all the pairings there's going to be a more dominant unit any way you cut it.

Vaike does pretty well with Chrom, but that's a pretty heavily contested resource.

I might do that... although it would end with a terrible Lucina.

I could pair Vaike with Lon'qu and MU with Cherche.. although that makes the matchup lopsided..

[Elieson]

Why not Gaius for Cherche?

[Da Bear]

Why not Gaius for Cherche?

Mainly because I'm already at twelve units (11 if I only use Tharja for pair up and children)

[MercuryHg34]

Gaius would prefer to go with Panne because she helps him with def and str when she goes WR, and he gives her speed to double virtually everything in the game upon becoming an assassin. That, and they join at the same time so it's easy to build their support. I'm using this pair right now and they work very well together.

[Da Bear]

Gaius would prefer to go with Panne because she helps him with def and str when she goes WR, and he gives her speed to double virtually everything in the game upon becoming an assassin. That, and they join at the same time so it's easy to build their support. I'm using this pair right now and they work very well together.

Almost everyone is using Panne. I'm going hipster and not doing so.

I'm going to just open a thread for this stuff.

Edited May 3, 2013 by bearclaw13

[Interceptor]

It's not a weak argument, just an incomplete one. Maybe we should settle this in the tiering philosophy thread.

If there's more to it, that's fine, I was just pointing out that something based just on specific turncounts isn't really going to be super-useful, except maybe as a tiebreaker.

I would say pair them up with people that aren't each other, but you're already pretty tight on deployment slots.

Agree with this. One of the things that I would do differently on my last HM run, is to not put together two units that are intended to be primaries, unless supports are flexible (like the Avatar/Chrom/Lucina/Morgan family). It slows down the EXP gain for both of them too much, especially if they aren't units that can face a lot of safe EP activity (like fliers).

Best supports are the one-way supports like NowixGregor, or one like SumiaxFrederick that switches Lead units as the game goes forward. Something like CordeliaxStahl seems like a mistake if you intend to use them both heavily. I feel like Chrom can get away with it, though, because of Dual Strike+ and early S-rank giving him a lot of quality looks at some EXP.

[SB.]

CordeliaxStahl works out fine from my experience, since Stahl joins long enough before to build up a good amount of exp and Cordelia is pretty solid out the start.

[PKL]

Ive had no experience issues tagging Stahl and cordelia in and out. Cordelia just hit Galeforce in Chapter 18 and Stahl is like Level 9 Paladin. They have great synergy together. Also what SB said is true.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Peekayell

[MercuryHg34]

This is one of the primary subjects I am testing in my current log, the ability to use both Stahl and Cordelia as primaries. So far it is going exceptionally well for me, both units are level 19 on chapter 15 and ready for promotion in the middle of said chapter. They perfectly compliment each other, covering each other's weaknesses quite well and are very versatile as a pair of primaries.

[Da Bear]

My playlog is officially posted I'll start it up later but I have a few questions that I ask and would like an answer for.

I'm thinking Stahl should go to S tier. In my playlog he's my workhorse, he's rocking 14 strength and 16 defense going into chapter 6 (I'll post Paralogue 2 later) and he's only 10 once he currently laughs at anything physical and once Cordelia comes his okay speed should be enough to double and his mediocre resistance will be fixed. All of the playlogs that have used him seem to like what he can do and I'm just not seeing Sully at the top of S with him in A.

Edited May 4, 2013 by Narga_Rocks

[Junkhead]

Anna is amazing, combining both utility aspects of the traditional units- Thieves and healers/Warpers/Rescuers, while having nice Mov., decent durability through Avo. and moderately useful combat (above average with the Levin Sword). I tend to give Thief units Killing Edges and they perform up-to-par against other combat-based units.

[General Horace]

I've found that Anna falls off pretty quickly due to having no supports to pad her durability (other than avatar) for a long time, and staves just aren't as valuable in fe13 as they are in other games. Her offence is also kind of bad without Levin Swords too. She's pretty solid for a good while though. I've honestly not come across too many chests that are that important either, although the more the better I suppose.

Edited May 4, 2013 by General Horace

[Seven Deadly Sins]

So, if I can boil down thoughts on the list a bit, here are the changes that I'd like to see happen.

1. Nowi to bottom of A. This won't be a landing spot, but she is pretty much insane with that Gregor support, and her main issue can be patched up easily.
2. Stahl to bottom of S. His durability makes him the best candidate on early maps to simply charge forward and soften up enemies. With a Kellam support his durability is insane, he ORKOs with a dual strike, and if the doesn't kill, he leaves plenty of cleanup for the rest of the team. He has great support bonuses in either of his promotions, and if he can pick up a speed support like Cordelia he can become an amazing offensive force as well.
3. Sumia and Cordelia... not going anywhere. Sumia has a serious problem with her support list- the only good one is Sumia x Frederick, which is quite good but hits a serious wall at some point, and basically has her as a glorified support bot for someone whose future prospects are shaky at best. It's a good pair up that benefits them both, but the lack of versatility just hurts her for me. Lon'qu has a lot of useful pair up possibilities, notably Sully, Panne, Cherche, or even Nowi, He also has a Vaike support he can lean on until either Panne or Cherche shows up, or he can just buddy up with Kellam for the huge Defense boost. He provides more benefit to more characters, and has a better shot later game, both as a pocket character (armorslayer/wyrmslayer for effective bonuses, or even bows if he goes assassin) and as a straight up offensive point. As an aside, I also disagree with either Sumia or Cordelia being above Anna too.
4. Gaius should move up. His start is pretty awful, but he has an amazing support (+Spe, +Mv? Yes please) and like Lon'qu, he has a great support roster that not only hugely benefits him, but that he also gives a significant boost to. It feels really odd to have him below Gregor, especially since he shows up at the same time as Panne, with arguably better support bonuses, and the utility of opening chests. Attaching Locktouch to a powerful offensive unit seems useful for chapters with annoying to reach chests like Ch12 (i think? whichever one has Gangrel), or Paralogue 4.
5. I can see Cherche > Vaike. Cherche has way more support options to deal with her issues (Lon'qu, Gregor, Gaius, etc), and Vaike's shitty start makes it really hard for him to get off the ground.

Anything else?

e: If Anna can get to 10 (or even 15 for Acrobat) and then reclass to Sage (Staves) or Dark Knight (mount + horses + def), she becomes a serious offensive powerhouse. That tends to be around the time Second Seals are buyable, and before then she still has Levin Swords or just regular old steel / slayers,

Edited May 4, 2013 by Seven Deadly Sins

[General Horace]

I totally disagree on Lon'qu, I can't see him doing anything useful as anything but a +speed support bot, and there are lots of those (Gaius, Gregor etc) and his durability is just too poor to be a lead support unit. Lack of 1-2 range hurts him a lot as well.

Sumia and Henry is a fairly solid support that fixes both Sumia's issues with generals and Henry's speed. Once I finish my most recent playthrough, i'll argue that more though.

I question Miriel's postition too, I'm not really sure what positives she brings to the team.

edit ur 2 slow sb

Edited May 4, 2013 by General Horace

[SB.]

Sumia's support list being limited doesn't mean much. The supports she does have are strong enough (Frederick, and seemingly Henry by Horace's playlog.) She gets stupidly overleveled earlygame thanks to pretty much unrivaled doubling, and her flaws are easily overcome by Frederick support, Tonics and forging if necessary. I don't know why you're assuming Frederick is the primary when tiering Sumia, she's strong enough to stand as a the lead and stomp earlygame. Lon'qu is just a guy who gives +speed, which Sumia does as well.

edit screw you horseface

Edited May 4, 2013 by Serious Bananas

[riariadne]

Vaike > Miriel was pretty much agreed on IIRC.

Lon'qu is good but above fliers is really a stretch. I think you're seriously undervaluing how useful flight is and the bow weakness is less relevant than made out to be. His durability is just wretched and swordlock is kind of terrible because of the total lack of 1-2 range (Levin Swords are a joke and Amatsu only has 30 uses, less if Yen'fay hurt someone with it). His offense is also pretty bad at the start because his strength base is awful and swords don't help. His +speed is not very unique.

[SB.]

Also, Nowi. She's good but not S tier material - she gets all of this hype for being unkillable (same with Sully, but that's later I guess) when she's 2HKOed by Axe enemies in her join chapter. That's hardly unkillable. She also has the same base speed as Virion, Kellam and Ricken. They joined in Chapter 1, 3 and 5. That's 5 chapters earlier for Ricken alone, if we count paralogues. Ricken is also 2HKOed, and has permanent 1-2 range, yet he's sat rotting in D tier. What. I'm not saying he's better than her or anything, but all of these flaws that she has seem to be getting overlooked, yet when Ricken shows the same flaws he gets way too much flak for it.