Da Bear Posted May 4, 2013 Share Posted May 4, 2013 Also, Nowi. She's good but not S tier material - she gets all of this hype for being unkillable (same with Sully, but that's later I guess) when she's 2HKOed by Axe enemies in her join chapter. That's hardly unkillable. She also has the same base speed as Virion, Kellam and Ricken. They joined in Chapter 1, 3 and 5. That's 5 chapters earlier for Ricken alone, if we count paralogues. Ricken is also 2HKOed, and has permanent 1-2 range, yet he's sat rotting in D tier. What. I'm not saying he's better than her or anything, but all of these flaws that she has seem to be getting overlooked, yet when Ricken shows the same flaws he gets way too much flak for it. Okay then... Are you not paying any attention to the arguments for for Nowi? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SB. Posted May 4, 2013 Share Posted May 4, 2013 (edited) I'm pretty sure I mentioned all of them in that post, they were just hidden under her crippling flaws. Edited May 4, 2013 by Serious Bananas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitoari Posted May 4, 2013 Share Posted May 4, 2013 (edited) Also, Nowi. She's good but not S tier material - she gets all of this hype for being unkillable (same with Sully, but that's later I guess) when she's 2HKOed by Axe enemies in her join chapter. That's hardly unkillable. I wouldn't say Nowi is S tier but you're way overstating her problems. First, the main reason that she's a little fragile in her join chapter is her low starting HP. but what is Nowi (by extension Gregor) doing in this chapter? She's going left to grab the Master Seal. Her low level means that she's getting a ton of EXP just from facing combat, and with Gregor's Concoction/Vulnerary (can't remember which) she isn't going to die unless the player tries to send her to the boss area. She's guaranteed HP on every level up (I'm pretty sure you can get at least 3 from her join chapter), and will occasionally get +2. That's a big durability increase by the end of the chapter when you consider she'll likely roll Def twice. What about the others? Ricken joins in a chapter where the enemies that threaten him (similar to axe enemies in Nowi's chapter) are FLYING, which means he has 0 hope of avoiding them. Kellam is better used as a pocket unit and will never gain EXP. Virion is an archer in a game where half the maps are gigantic open fields. Nowi also gets Gregor pretty much for free, who's instantly giving her +4 SPD and +2 DEF before his stats even come into the picture. Ricken AFAIK doesn't have any speed supports that work with him, Kellam is inferior to Stahl for Cordelia and Virion is an archer. Gregor also promotes to Bow Knight, meaning Nowi is probably going to be moving faster than your promoted foot units with an option for 8 Move on turn one. tl;dr: Nowi's initial problems are rendered irrelevant because a) she's safe in her join chapter (unlike Ricken) b) she has a +SPD +DEF support that she easily uses the best (unlike Kellam) and she isn't an archer. Also, Kellam is a knight, which means Nowi has a 2 movement lead on him at join time. All that said, Ricken is too low. At the very least he should be above DONNEL. Edited May 4, 2013 by Kitoari Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Horace Posted May 4, 2013 Share Posted May 4, 2013 Do we always assume Nowi is getting Gregor as a support partner? He's good for other units that need speed like Cherche too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SB. Posted May 4, 2013 Share Posted May 4, 2013 (edited) Oh, I meant A tier derp me. Also, said axe dude who 2HKOes her is to the left. She's not getting 3 levels in that map alone without some serious luck. And my point on the others was, "look at all of these bad units, who joined at least 5 chapters before her who are just as fast as her". And the being safe in her join thing is irrelevant because anyone with a brain can keep Ricken alive easily and have him contribute. Also, said flying guys who threaten him take 23 or so back with a Maribelle support, and he's not getting all 5 of them dogpiled on top of him unless you're a moron. Ricken can use Gregor (see PKL's run), Lon'qu or whoever to get the speed boost he needs too. Gregor isn't locked to Nowi you know, just because of that "auto C". Edited May 4, 2013 by Serious Bananas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galenforcer Posted May 4, 2013 Share Posted May 4, 2013 All that said, Ricken is too low. At the very least he should be above DONNEL. Ricken's fine where he is. Donnel, while he has a rough start, pays off more in the end than Ricken does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Horace Posted May 4, 2013 Share Posted May 4, 2013 Rough start is pretty generous for Donnel he's hands down the worst, he just takes way too long to get going Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitoari Posted May 4, 2013 Share Posted May 4, 2013 (edited) Do we always assume Nowi is getting Gregor as a support partner? He's good for other units that need speed like Cherche too. I would say by the time Cherche joins she might not need him as much anymore with tonics, but I see no reason not to assume Gregor especially for the first few chapters you have her. brb replicating my draft CH9 Donnel takes forever to get going - Ricken CAN double some things with a +Spd like Lon'qu or Chrom (though he's very contested by lotsa people), and on promotion to DK he can get +7 Def and wall things. Edited May 4, 2013 by Kitoari Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Horace Posted May 4, 2013 Share Posted May 4, 2013 Ok i should have been more clear You can't always assume Gregor as Nowi's partner, similar to why you can't always assume AvatarxChrom, etc. Its not an exclusive resource. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted May 4, 2013 Share Posted May 4, 2013 Feeding kills to Donnel to get him to 10 isn't that tough in Hard mode (it would be another story in Lunatic), and by the time he re-classes he'll be performing better than Ricken ever will be. It really depends on how much the list wants to value a unit's pay-off and how good they can become when used full-game. If you assume trying to use them seriously full-game, Donnel wins, but if you assume they're only used for as long as they might be mildly useful, Ricken wins for having powerful hits against the enemies in his joining map while Donnel has nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seven Deadly Sins Posted May 4, 2013 Author Share Posted May 4, 2013 @Horace: Two things. 1: Actually, I have a playthrough where I'm testing an idea that I had before. Specifically, getting Sumia x Frederick to S for Cynthia, then promoting Sumia to Dark Flier, using Sumia x Henry and Cynthia x Frederick. Dark Flier is an incredible support for a mage, especially a speed and res weak one like Henry, and Frederick being able to lend Cynthia support to get her going is really nice. 2: There are three different top tier male speed supports for Nowi- Lon'qu, Gaius, and Gregor. It's highly unlikely that she will miss all three of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitoari Posted May 4, 2013 Share Posted May 4, 2013 Unfortunately I Avatar solo'd to get to chapter 8 so my normal strategy essentially didn't work, but you only need a solid flying unit (Wyvern Panne, Sumia with pocket Fred, possibly Cordelia if you do the paralogue now and level her) and someone who can safely go down the plains area (Sully, Frederick/Chrom Pocket Fred, Cordelia airlifting Avatar). Nowi goes right, chips the DM. She has a 25% chance of killing him outright and the DM has 50% accuracy so there's a high chance she won't even take damage, though dodging isn't necessary. She gets 12 EXP or from this. DM kill puts her at 58. Nowi continues to go left and sits on the village after downing a vuln. Killing the Axe dood and the DM after 2 rounds of combat nets her 58 - 12 = 46 (2 is 92) EXP per kill and 24 CEXP, putting her at 174 EXP gained this far. Admittedly my original number of 3 may have been a bit generous (since I drafted her in that run), but she can get at least one more kill/two chips before the chapter's done for 2.25 levels or so. Chapter 9 is mostly "kill the enemies near spawn and then fly best unit to solo 90% of the rest before reinforcements show up", so she'll get some EXP at the start and then do nothing. I figure she can cap a level here at least. Next chapter is pretty fast, but if we're not using Rescue it's an EXP goldmine. At this point Nowi should be able to ORKO things with speed tonic and Gregor support, so she can grab the bullion or wyrmslayer for Irony. I remember people arguing over how fast the tier player would do 11, but there is a speed wing if we do decide to take 5 turns and Nowi's definitely a candidate for it. For the ridiculousness Nowi is capable of by Ch12, see Interceptor's playlog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Horace Posted May 4, 2013 Share Posted May 4, 2013 @Horace: Two things. 1: Actually, I have a playthrough where I'm testing an idea that I had before. Specifically, getting Sumia x Frederick to S for Cynthia, then promoting Sumia to Dark Flier, using Sumia x Henry and Cynthia x Frederick. Dark Flier is an incredible support for a mage, especially a speed and res weak one like Henry, and Frederick being able to lend Cynthia support to get her going is really nice. 2: There are three different top tier male speed supports for Nowi- Lon'qu, Gaius, and Gregor. It's highly unlikely that she will miss all three of them. 1: That's actually a really good idea, me likey 2: fair enough not going to respond to the bit about nowi in chapter 12, its not exclusive to her only, many units (Stahl, Panne, Frederick, just to name a few) can do the same just as easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitoari Posted May 4, 2013 Share Posted May 4, 2013 1: That's actually a really good idea, me likey 2: fair enough not going to respond to the bit about nowi in chapter 12, its not exclusive to her only, many units (Stahl, Panne, Frederick, just to name a few) can do the same just as easy. I would definitely say Panne and Stahl > Nowi, for what it's worth. I'm not feeling Fred since I think there's a beast killer or two in that chapter (and a hammer, maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKL Posted May 4, 2013 Share Posted May 4, 2013 ^ Wrong. The beastkiller is like right next to your units.. And theres definetely no hammers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SB. Posted May 4, 2013 Share Posted May 4, 2013 (edited) The only Beast Killer I remember can be OHKOed by Hammer Fred turn 1 anyway. funking ninjas Edited May 4, 2013 by Serious Bananas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitoari Posted May 4, 2013 Share Posted May 4, 2013 Mea culpa, though I should've really just noticed Fred's stats will probably start sputtering at that point and he'd be better used in someone's pocket. Fred > Nowi either way for his contributions while she doesn't exist and for a chapter or two afterwards, but he's not going to be able to destroy CH 12 on his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zkirsche Posted May 5, 2013 Share Posted May 5, 2013 If Nowi is being moved to A for being an unkillable wall with 1-2 range then I would like Tharja to be moved up as well for similar reasons. Sure, Tharja will cost us more but she takes less to get going and money isn't in short supply. I accept Nowi > Tharja though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da Bear Posted May 5, 2013 Share Posted May 5, 2013 If Nowi is being moved to A for being an unkillable wall with 1-2 range then I would like Tharja to be moved up as well for similar reasons. Sure, Tharja will cost us more but she takes less to get going and money isn't in short supply. I accept Nowi > Tharja though. I'm not seeting her taking less to get going.. and the only walling she's going to do will be nostanking... which she can't do in DK, if she isn't in Dark Knight then she doesn't win move at all.. I'm pretty sure that she's good where she is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted May 5, 2013 Share Posted May 5, 2013 LTC arguments probably aren't appropriate for this tier list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da Bear Posted May 5, 2013 Share Posted May 5, 2013 Also I would like Stahl above Avatar!Lucina because he's amazing before she exists and doesn't exactly do poorly while she's around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zkirsche Posted May 5, 2013 Share Posted May 5, 2013 (edited) I'm not seeting her taking less to get going.. and the only walling she's going to do will be nostanking... which she can't do in DK, if she isn't in Dark Knight then she doesn't win move at all.. I'm pretty sure that she's good where she is. Starting at 12 speed in comparison to 5 means that she takes less to get going, if anything at all to get going if given a speed tonic. And I never once said Tharja won mov, she doesn't except for maybe turn 1 if she partners up with someone with the mov (But then why are we not partnering her up with Libra?). Mov is one of the reasons why I accept Nowi > Tharja. Please see the difference between > and >>>, the latter being implied if Nowi is in the tier above. 1 Mov does not make you >>>. Edit: Thought Nowi had 7 mov, but apparently she has 6, so she doesn't even win move after Tharja promotes. So basically Nowi in A while Tharja in B because Nosferato costs more than Dragonstones? Not buying it. Edited May 5, 2013 by kirsche Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seven Deadly Sins Posted May 5, 2013 Author Share Posted May 5, 2013 Being unkillable because you barely take damage >>> being mostly unkillable because you can heal it off except when you miss or against high res units. One is reliable, one is not. That's a tier difference if I ever saw one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da Bear Posted May 5, 2013 Share Posted May 5, 2013 Move Tiki up maybe? Her late joining time is annoying but there doesn't seem to be anything to stop her from becoming.a one-woman army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Horace Posted May 5, 2013 Share Posted May 5, 2013 I would definitely say Panne and Stahl > Nowi, for what it's worth. I'm not feeling Fred since I think there's a beast killer or two in that chapter (and a hammer, maybe? In my playlog Frederick took 0 damage from every enemy in the chapter with the exception of the boss and the Silver Paladins, and ORKO'd all unpromoted enemy types. There aren't even any axes in the chapter for there to be a hammer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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