FE: Awakening Hard Mode Tier List

[Da Bear]

50% isn't always that solid when his base is as low as it is. Look at something like Nowi's/Stahl's speed, its a similar scenerio.

His durability is riding entiely on his hp. This hp is amazing but not good enough with his defensive stats. In my playlog he was slowing me down and hurting my team.. he's pretty terrible.

[SB.]

Not with Frederick and when she doesn't have Frederick her durability is pretty fail..

So if we give Sumia someone she can't support she's as good and Lon'qu without pairs? That seems to be what the latter half of your post is implying and I'm wondering how that makes sense. If we give Sumia Vaike or Fred why not give Lon'qu Kellam? Kellam!Lon'qu dodges more and has better durability both tanking-wise and dodging-wise than Fred or Vaike!Sumia.

Also my problem wth Vaike!Sumia = Lon'qu is because in my experience (and this is at bases so personal expierence matters a little..) she would be better at that point.

Uh, Sumia misses the occasional Myrm earlygame, like Chapter 5 for instance. Guess who doesn't double them either? Our old buddy Lon'qu.

What I'm saying is if for some reason you're giving Frederick to Stahl/Avatar/someone else Sumia can also function with Vaike. And sure, you can give Lon'qu Kellam, but then you have a mediocre footie running around with 5 move, while Sumia is flying around with the same attack sporting 7 or 8 move depending on the support.

Assuming we do Paralogue 1 before Chapter 5, it isn't a huge stretch to see Sumia coming out of Chapter 4 at level 5. Let's compare her and Lon'qu.

Level 6 Sumia: 21.75 HP, 14.5 Skl, 14.5+2 Spd, 11 Lck, 6.5 Def, 9 Res

w Iron Lance: 15.25 MT

w Killer Lance: 19.25 MT

w Javelin: 11.25 MT

Level 4: Lon'qu: 20 HP, 12 Skl, 13 Spd, 7 Lck, 7 Def, 2 Res

w Iron Sword: 12 MT

w Killing Edge: 16MT

See how Lon'qu needs to use the Killer to surpass Sumia's MT with the Iron Lance by a single point? Top notch offense right there - and if Sumia uses the Killer Lance it's just plain sad to watch.

Adding in pair up bonuses now, to fix their crippling weaknesses. Frederick is assumed to have a C support with Sumia, Vaike isn't assumed the same because Lon'qu just arrived. I'll assume Vaike got strength though, but this means Lon'qu could potentially have one less MT.

Level 6 Sumia: 21.75 HP, 14.5 Skl, 15.5+2 Spd, 11 Lck, 10, 11.5 Def, 9 Res

w Iron Lance: 20.25 MT

w Killer Lance: 24.25 MT

w Javelin: 15.25 MT

Level 4 Lon'qu: 20 HP, 12 Skl, 13 Spd, 7 Lck, 9 Def, 2 Res

w Iron Sword: 17 MT

w Killing Edge: 21 MT

Note how Sumia stomps Lon'qu in durability now, +3 move and puts his offense to shame.

Wyverns in Chapter 5 have 26-27 HP, and 8-9 Def. Assuming a 27/9 generation, Sumia does 14x2 with the Killer Lance (due to WTD), resulting in a KO every time. The Wyverns are pretty threatening with 21MT, but that assumes 12 strength and proccing the Strength +2 skill. And even then, they're still missing the 2HKO on her. There's also the chance that she pulls off a crit if she initiates the attack, meaning that she doesn't end up taking a counter. These are the bulkiest enemies on the map - she ORKOes everything else on the map with Iron aside from the boss and the Myrmidons, the latter who she misses doubling by a hair. She outright OHKOes the Mage with the Killer, for god's sake.

Lon'qu then, how does he fare? His durability leaves something to be desired, being 2HKOed by any of the southern enemies on the map - if they can hit him that is. He can aleviate this problem however by standing on the forest, becoming 3HKOed at 30ish hitrates. His offense isn't bad, ORKOing most enemies with the Killing Edge (although it is the Killing Edge, and Sumia could do the same with most enemies with her Iron Lance,) only missing the Wyverns. Which Sumia can kill. With Iron, he barely misses out on ORKOing Babs with 29/3 defensive spreads (with 3 being the minimum that they can roll in defense,) but this can be alleviated with a Strength Tonic I suppose. He can ORKO the Dark Mages if they have less than 5 defense (which they normally do, but it should be considered) and the sole mage obviously.

Basically, this shows that Sumia not only had better durability than Lon'qu, but also trumps him significantly offensively upon his join. What's Lon'qu still doing above Sumia again?

[Da Bear]

Level 6 Sumia:

You lost me here..

Care to explain Sumia getting 5 levels in three maps? Especially considering which maps we're talking about.

Chapter 3 has archers perfectly placed to stop Sumia from getting much in the terms of experience.. and she's got worse durability than any other unit (except Miriel who has range to slightly make up for it).

Paralogue 1 also has plenty of archers and again Sumia is super frail and she doesn't dodge well at base.. you know basically the opposite of our favorite myrmidon.

Chapter 4 has nine enemies including the boss.. the experience gained will be pretty low..

Then Lon'qu joins not needing any babying, ready do just dodge the swarms of axe users and doing better than Sumia who would be much more realistically placed at level two or three.. at least if we're clearing efficiently.

Yeah if you can give me a reason to take you seriously I will but assuming massive favoritism towards a frail unit isn't helping you at all.

[Anouleth]

Even in Lunatic I managed to get Sumia to level 6 by Chapter 5. Maybe I could have gone faster, but then again: that was Lunatic.

And even if Sumia is only level 3 or 4, she's still better than Lon'qu. Her stats are better everywhere except Defense, which is tied (level 4 Sumia has 6 defense, then she has a +1DEF from actually having a support), she has flight, 1-2 range and 7 move. Level 6 just turns Sumia beating Lon'qu into Sumia shitstomping Lon'qu.

[Da Bear]

Even in Lunatic I managed to get Sumia to level 6 by Chapter 5. Maybe I could have gone faster, but then again: that was Lunatic.

And even if Sumia is only level 3 or 4, she's still better than Lon'qu. Her stats are better everywhere except Defense, which is tied (level 4 Sumia has 6 defense, then she has a +1DEF from actually having a support), she has flight, 1-2 range and 7 move. Level 6 just turns Sumia beating Lon'qu into Sumia shitstomping Lon'qu.

That still counts as massive favoritism. You know favoritism that Lon'qu doesn't need.

[Ema Skye]

You lost me here..

Care to explain Sumia getting 5 levels in three maps? Especially considering which maps we're talking about.

Chapter 3 has archers perfectly placed to stop Sumia from getting much in the terms of experience.. and she's got worse durability than any other unit (except Miriel who has range to slightly make up for it).

Paralogue 1 also has plenty of archers and again Sumia is super frail and she doesn't dodge well at base.. you know basically the opposite of our favorite myrmidon.

Chapter 4 has nine enemies including the boss.. the experience gained will be pretty low..

Then Lon'qu joins not needing any babying, ready do just dodge the swarms of axe users and doing better than Sumia who would be much more realistically placed at level two or three.. at least if we're clearing efficiently.

Yeah if you can give me a reason to take you seriously I will but assuming massive favoritism towards a frail unit isn't helping you at all.

Paralogue 1's archers are all somewhat close together (from what I recall, plus there's only around 4 of them), making them easy to avoid. If you head through the nothern choke point with Frederick, she's pretty much in the clear given that Frederick support makes her pretty durable for this map.

And if you're really scared, Sumia can ORKO said archers with iron lance and Fred before they get a chance to hit her.

Lon'qu is 2HKOed in his join map, so if he doesn't dodge his life will be really short.

Not too fond of the level SB put her at though. I'd say Lv.4 (maybe 5) is a better estimate for starting Ch.5 having completed Paralogue 1.

I'd say that Lon'qu needs to drop to at least B tier, probably under Tharja. Without his Killing Edge, his offense is really lackluster and he has massive problems in the Valm Arc where everyone and their mother is using Steel Lances. He's cool till around Ch.9 when there are a lot of axe enemies and the maps are reasonably small, but he lacks the movement in Ch.10 and Ch.11 to get much EXP, and then we're into Valm.

[General Horace]

My Sumia in my playlog was level 6 and a half through chapter 4 and paralogue 1, I'm pretty sure SB used it as a reference when I was talking to him about it.

As far as Paralogue 1 goes (where my Sumia got two levels), she can go north and kill the archer above the group on turn one (one archer down), and kill the enemies there, the other archer near your group is dead on turn 2 unless you're silly (two archers down), another is stuck in the chest room and Sumia has no reason to go there, and even if she does, he doesn't move, and can be trapped in if she somehow doens't orko her (three). I honestly forget where the other two are, but they're both clumped near the boss iirc, so that leaves her everywhere on the map except the boss area to get exp. It's pretty simple.

As for what Lucina said, Lon'qu's offence is pretty good until Valm, where he drops off a cliff due to lances and knights. Low Strength units like Sumia herself can switch over to using tomes to hit the much lower res stat (at two range) to make up for her iffy strength.

[Da Bear]

I know Paralogue one is easy I'm just saying she isn't exactly easy to get to that level while being efficient.. also you all seem to be ignoring Lon'qu's avoid..

@Horace you were using Sumia, Sully, Lon'qu, Chrom and Avatar right? Getting Sumia to 6 seems okay with that team but most teams will be bigger. Also if he's giving Sumia level 6 according to your playlog than why wasn't Lon'qu level 5?

@Doofina that's without pair-up Sumia is also probably 2HKOed without pair-up so that argument is useless.. Come the Valm arc Lon'qu can quite easily sit back on a well built support and give them speed and common dual attacks that's not useless by any means. You are correct that his low move is annoying although I've covered why early-game > mid to late-game.

I guess it looks like everyone else is for the pegs so I'm done arguing when the argument will go nowhere.. feel free to move them just remember that Lon'qu can do stuff.

[Shadow Mir]

I know Paralogue one is easy I'm just saying she isn't exactly easy to get to that level while being efficient.. also you all seem to be ignoring Lon'qu's avoid..

@Horace you were using Sumia, Sully, Lon'qu, Chrom and Avatar right? Getting Sumia to 6 seems okay with that team but most teams will be bigger. Also if he's giving Sumia level 6 according to your playlog than why wasn't Lon'qu level 5?

@Doofina that's without pair-up Sumia is also probably 2HKOed without pair-up so that argument is useless.. Come the Valm arc Lon'qu can quite easily sit back on a well built support and give them speed and common dual attacks that's not useless by any means. You are correct that his low move is annoying although I've covered why early-game > mid to late-game.

I guess it looks like everyone else is for the pegs so I'm done arguing when the argument will go nowhere.. feel free to move them just remember that Lon'qu can do stuff.

Other than against axes, Lon'qu's avoid isn't exactly what I'd call groundbreaking.

[Da Bear]

Other than against axes, Lon'qu's avoid isn't exactly what I'd call groundbreaking.

Avoid+10 and his speed and luck put together it actually is pretty amazing.

[General Horace]

Its pretty troubling in Valm since its lanceland, and his lowish hp and resistance means he gets rocked by magic as well, when it hits.

[SB.]

I don't know why you're arguing against Sumia without pair up, the thing is there to be used and Frederick gives her monsterous offense. With the Fred support and a possibly some tonics, she rips through pretty much every enemy in Paralogue 1 that she fights, all she has to do is keep away from the northern archers and she's golden. From there she just snowballs and stays a much better unit.

Lon'qu is still level 4 because 1) paralogues are assumed to be done instantly, and 2) his averages would be the same just with a bunch of decimals on the end.

Edited May 6, 2013 by Serious Bananas

[Da Bear]

I don't know why you're arguing against Sumia without pair up, the thing is there to be used and Frederick gives her monsterous offense. With the Fred support and a possibly some tonics, she rips through pretty much every enemy in Paralogue 1 that she fights, all she has to do is keep away from the northern archers and she's golden. From there she just snowballs and stays a much better unit.

Lon'qu is still level 4 because 1) paralogues are assumed to be done instantly, and 2) his averages would be the same just with a bunch of decimals

on the end.

I'm not even sure you we're reading my posts... I just don't care about it I said I'm not arguing this when almost everyone is against me.

For the other points brought up by SDS I could see Gaius up some but he's got a pretty weak start and joins barely before lances start appearing and wrecking him worse than they wreck Lon'qu.. Locktouch is useful though and Anna's fall makes it kind of inefficient to use her for the late valm chests.

I like Nowi in A but I'm not sure where.. bottom will make a good placeholder until we figure everything else out.

I would prefer Stahl above Chrom and Avatar!Lucina and while I've always found him to be better than Sully he doesn't belong quite that high.. I would prefer him about Frederick but the playlogs are showing he is capable late-game.

Cherche at base is not the best but she isn't horrible and Vaike is horrible at base.... I can definitely see Cherche > Vaike.

[Shadow Mir]

Anna's fall makes it kind of inefficient to use her for the late valm chests.

What...? I don't get it.

[General Horace]

Gaius is not better than Anna in that catergory, they both have non-existant durability in Valm.

[Da Bear]

What...? I don't get it.

Chapter 18 you have to go out of your way and clear a path to all chests before they melt... not very efficient in my mind.. on top of using your resources it wastes turns.

Chapter 20 is almost exactly the same, you waste time and energy getting her there.

Gaius is not better than Anna in that catergory, they both have non-existant durability in Valm.

Gaius has great supports that can get him to the chests with him giving them stats. Anna supports no one hurting both her durability and her usability.

Let's say Gaius married Cherche. He's going to be coming to all maps because of the stat boosts he gives her and it well typically be worth the deployment slot he can get a few kills (just a few mind) in these maps. This makes him better than Anna because anna can't support anyone except MU and eventually Tiki.

Gaius is helping more in non-chest maps and and chest maps because he can build supports. Edited May 6, 2013 by bearclaw13

[Anouleth]

I had no trouble getting all the chests in Chapter 18 while still beating the map in a fair number of turns (I think 4 or 5): they're along your path anyway, but you do need two thieves. The chests in Chapter 20 are much more out of your way and force you to split your forces, so they're kind of different.

Really, you have so many deployment slots that late in the game, there's absolutely no reason not to have Anna out all the time. She Heals, she Rescues, she gives decent pair up boosts to other utility characters, she can chip things with a Levin Sword. She requires no investment aside from money for staves, can fit in literally any team because she's not dependent on supports, and is useful in every single map.

[Da Bear]

I had no trouble getting all the chests in Chapter 18 while still beating the map in a fair number of turns (I think 4 or 5): they're along your path anyway, but you do need two thieves. The chests in Chapter 20 are much more out of your way and force you to split your forces, so they're kind of different.

Really, you have so many deployment slots that late in the game, there's absolutely no reason not to have Anna out all the time. She Heals, she Rescues, she gives decent pair up boosts to other utility characters, she can chip things with a Levin Sword. She requires no investment aside from money for staves, can fit in literally any team because she's not dependent on supports, and is useful in every single map.

I wasn't saying you can't just that it takes resources and a turn or two. If you need both thieves then I don't think either is winning the thieving department in that chapter.

Yes You have plenty of deployment slots but Libra does everything you described (save levin chipping) better because of supports. Gaius doesn't take much investment from what I've found to get good and I would say he pays it off.

Not sure about this no investment thing her growths are pretty bad so her stats will fall behind (the playlogs have convinced Mr Frederick can do well) and once they do only the Avatar and eventually Tiki are gaining support with her. The Avatar can do better several places and Tiki likes Say'ri support more. No supports make her pair up bonuses sub par in the easy to enter late-game maps. Everyone is dependent on supports. Not having them makes a character a great deal weaker.

That said the investment Gaius needs does exist and while he ends better than Anna it takes a while for him to catch up and surpass her.. they're pretty even I would say..

In the end the tier list is overrating Anna and Gaius should go up IMO.

[SB.]

Couldn't you substitute at least one of Gaius and Anna's contributions with keys anyway?

[Da Bear]

Couldn't you substitute at least one of Gaius and Anna's contributions with keys anyway?

Only if you have keys which might require letting thieves take something and then taking it from them or getting them as drops and using them in Chapter X instead of Chapter Y...

And that raises the question which are you bringing and using for the other chests? I would bring Gaius because of supports but others might choose Anna because she needs less leveling.

[KitheOfEvrark]

Sure Libra can do some of what Anna can do and Gaius can do other stuff she can do. However, would you rather deploy Libra and Gaius or be able to just deploy Anna and get the exact same thing done while having an extra deployment slot open?

[Florete]

I wasn't saying you can't just that it takes resources and a turn or two. If you need both thieves then I don't think either is winning the thieving department in that chapter.

Does one need to be?

Yes You have plenty of deployment slots but Libra does everything you described (save levin chipping) better because of supports.

Libra's support bonuses aren't as good, he doesn't double nearly as often, and he can't open chests.

Not sure about this no investment thing her growths are pretty bad so her stats will fall behind (the playlogs have convinced Mr Frederick can do well) and once they do only the Avatar and eventually Tiki are gaining support with her. The Avatar can do better several places and Tiki likes Say'ri support more. No supports make her pair up bonuses sub par in the easy to enter late-game maps. Everyone is dependent on supports. Not having them makes a character a great deal weaker.

Needless sandbagging on the Tiki part; she'll do just as well with either Anna or Say'ri. If either, Anna is probably preferable for the +1 move. Considering the only competition for a Tiki support is a low C tier unit, I think Anna can grab her just fine. Until then, it's not difficult to just give her a +Str/Def bot like Kellam or Cherche.

[Folt]

I have to say, if I were to prioritize the deployment of Gaius, Libra, and Anna, I'd do it like this, from highest priority to lowest priority: Anna > Libra > Gaius.

Why? Anna is able to do healing and stealing at the same time (and also Rescuing), which frees up slots for another battler. As for going with another healer or thief, I find that, depending on the map, I might just use both Anna and Libra, instead of Gaius and Libra, simply because I might need to Rescue her to keep the turn count low, but that depends on the loot of the chapter and if I want it, and for the rest, I find that just going with Anna is good enough because her magic base is as it is. If I don't need another Rescuer, it's better for me to just give some key units a healing item and go from there.

And as for no notable Supports other than Avatar and Tiki, I find that I could always just give Anna a Pair-Up unit anyways, because while she won't get bonuses, she will still get stat boosts, and once Lucky Seven comes around, she will do just fine. Alternatively, pair her up with Avatar (whose level and stats should be fairly high, thanks to Veteran and Pair-Up) and rack up some Support Ranks, and/or take Tiki when she comes and rack up Supports with her.

[Shadow Mir]

Erm... Anyone care to explain why Ricken's below Virion and Donnel?? Because I think there's a case for Ricken being above those two.

Edited May 6, 2013 by Levant Fortner

[Interceptor]

I wonder what chapters people have in mind when they consider deployment slots to be contested. I very rarely felt a deployment crunch, and I played way too many characters.