FE: Awakening Hard Mode Tier List

[Florete]

Strong words for a flawed post. I agree with Sully > Panne though, that post does highlight how mid-game the two are fairly equal but Sully existing for more chapters is key. Panne has the advantage a lot longer than that post would have you believe though, the two should be wyvern lords for much of the game, and Panne gains exp slightly faster so should overtake but that's minor. Also there's no steel lance by chapter 6, so Panne is much closer to Sully even then. Thus I think it's a bit strong to say "proven" as it's still fairly up to opinion and I wouldn't like to see the two seperated by much.

Btw I'm currently logging enemy stats as I play. Progress is slow but I'm at chapter 7.

Edit: Isn't avatar the best candidate for Chrom?

I thought there was more of a discussion that started there, but I guess the posts were pretty scattered. Still, the concept was elaborated on.

If in play, female Avatar is the best candidate for Chrom. If male (or if she goes with someone else, she does have the entire cast available to her), Sully is the best.

Chrom has better skills and a superior earlygame, where movement is hardly an issue, and almost all of his good pairup partners (Frederick, Sumia, Sully) are mounted, it's not a huge deal. Support list is superfluous, there's no way Chrom isn't getting a support partner (if you want Lucina to resemble anything anyway), and all his support options aside from Maribelle and Olivia are strong. His pair up bonuses become the same if he's a Paladin, and anything with +speed isn't a bad thing (allthough I do concede that the bonuses Sully gives are better).

Skills: No. How? Dual Strike+ is the only considerably good one until he has until Rightful King, but RK relies on good activation skills and Aether is mediocre. Charm is just filler. Discipline's usefulness caps out but it's still good until then and Defender and Aegis are both quite useful; however, they both have access to these, only Sully without a Second Seal. If Sully goes Wyvern, she gets Tantivy and Quick Burn and eventually Swordbreaker (or Deliverer and Lancebreaker). And she'll be flying.

Chrom's and Sully's early game are very similar. You noted yourself how their bases and growths are practically the same and Chrom has all of 1 chapter and 1 turn on her. Movement is always a benefit, don't try to play that one off; having a mounted support partner helps, but when he's in front, he's still not moving as far.

Take away Maribelle and Olivia from his supports (which I agree with), and suddenly his options have actually been cut fairly significantly. If female avatar isn't in play, it's just Sumia and Sully. Now I'm not saying a player may likely not give him someone at all, but his list is quite restrictive, which is a bad thing.

[General Horace]

Movement means very little in Chapter 1, and 2, Sully isn't strong enough to go farther ahead of Chrom in Chapter 3, nobody but Frederick or his partner is charging ahead in chapter 4. I hope you're starting to get the drift. It means a lot more come midgame, yes, but earlygame it's not a huge deal. Falchion is a massive boost over the Iron Sword that Sully is using on Wyverns, and nothing else Sully is using will pass it's attack anyway against a majority of the enemies due to wtd.

He also has Frederick and Vaike, which are excellent support partners for him, since he gets stats from then he needs, and they get the speed they want in return. Not denying Sully's list isn't better, but Chrom's certainly isn't lackluster.

[Chiki]

Why is Sully so high up? Can she promote into Dark Flier?

[Redwall]

Why is Sully so high up? Can she promote into Dark Flier?

Decent growths, higher availability than Panne. I am not completely convinced, but am planning on pairing her with Chrom myself to confirm.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Redwall

[General Horace]

it's not her best pairing in my opinion, her strength really suffers and needs Chrom to jump in to secure kills, in my experience, and my Sully was a little strength blessed come midgame.

She's probably better with Stahl or Vaike IMO.

Or Fred.

Edited May 7, 2013 by General Horace

[Chiki]

I'm surprised Galeforcers aren't even considered in this tier list. I've no idea why Sully and Panne rank higher than Cordelia and Sumia even though they lack Galeforce.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Olwen

[1% critted]

I think it's because on a reasonable time, you can get galeforce at mid-late Valm.

[Florete]

Movement means very little in Chapter 1, and 2, Sully isn't strong enough to go farther ahead of Chrom in Chapter 3, nobody but Frederick or his partner is charging ahead in chapter 4. I hope you're starting to get the drift. It means a lot more come midgame, yes, but earlygame it's not a huge deal. Falchion is a massive boost over the Iron Sword that Sully is using on Wyverns, and nothing else Sully is using will pass it's attack anyway against a majority of the enemies due to wtd.

He also has Frederick and Vaike, which are excellent support partners for him, since he gets stats from then he needs, and they get the speed they want in return. Not denying Sully's list isn't better, but Chrom's certainly isn't lackluster.

Of course it means less early on, but it's still a notable advantage that only increases. Aside from that one enemy type, Falchion is just an unbreakable Iron Sword. Sure, it makes him better against those enemies, but it's hardly enough to call him better than her.

So you've admitted that Sully has a better support list and Pair Up options. Her stats are basically the same, she has more Move, better re-class options, and much quicker access to 1-2 range. Really, how do you think Chrom wins this? Is your entire argument banking on Falchion?

[General Horace]

I guess it's just my personal experience in Chrom's offence early on, he just seems to hit harder and be more solid than Sully early on, although admittably, i've only really used Sully with Chrom, which definatley makes Chrom the better unit because her boosts give him better stats than he provides her. I'll try her with Stahl or Frederick next playthrough and see how she does then.

wrt to what olwen is saying, even if you're not using galeforce in get lower turncounts, it increases the exp that sumia/cordelia and their partners get every single turn, which pretty much like having veteran and 16-18 movement.

Edited May 7, 2013 by General Horace

[PKL]

There we go again with the whole "but if he doesnt get exp hes not good"!

Chrom is an excellent unit be it in the lead or as a support. He has WTA in Prologue and Chapter 1 so he's very easy to give exp to, just switch him in for a few rounds and not give Avatar every single level. Avatar will probably cap level by like Chapter 7 anyway. Sully 3HKOs enemies in C1 and doesnt double + faces WTD vs a majority of them.

Chapter 2 has her 4HKO'ing barbarians and 3HKO'ing soldiers and mercs. She's also 3HKO'd back (this is with a Chrom pairup mind you). She might double some barbarians that havent proc'd spd if Chrom has over 10 spd by then. If we compare this to Vaike! Stahl, he 2HKOs everything on the map with a Bronze Sword and is like 6HKO'd.

Chapter 3 she misses 2HKO'ing soldiers even if she got a level or 2 by now (unless she's above average in str) with an Iron Lance. If she takes any partner other than Chrom, she's not doubling. Her doubling is also extremely borderline and depends on both Sully and Chrom's levels at this point.

In Paralogue 1, she needed a str tonic to barely ORKO some barbarians that didn't proc hp in my most recent playlog and she was slightly blessed in str iirc. So, I can assume an average Sully isnt doing that hot here either. Her taking Chrom from Avatar and the others is a bad thing in itself but if we assume they're together, switching chrom in will be beneficial as he again has WTA vs the enemies there and is more likely to ORKO than sully is. Not to mention that sully is still not very good in the durability department so she will need either healing or switching to Chrom eventually. (Eventually being every turn)

Chapter 4 has Chrom again being the better unit. He is able to do more damage vs the barbarians nearest to the group.

Chapter 5 is a clear win his way. Chrom has WTA vs the wyverns and barbarians, 2 common enemy types of the map and is very likely to ORKO the wyverns with the Falchion's effective MT.

Paralogue 2 is probably in favor of Sully. Her better mobility can get Chrom to the boss area (for him to then do all the work because of better reliability, WTA vs 2 of the enemies near the boss and the boss himself + very likely more durability than her due to her def bonus.

Chapter 6 is again a win for chrom. He can rapier the cavaliers, have WTA vs the barbarians and will probably be doing more damage per hit than Sully due to Sully's str bonus to Chrom as opposed to just Sully getting spd from Chrom (superflous spd I might add)

Chapter 7 isnt even funny. Chrom wins so much its laughable. For the same reasons as Chapter 5. They're both the same vs Archers. She could probably win thieves if she can OHKO/double them. But Chrom wins like 80% of the map.

Paralogue 3. Chrom is probably being ferried to talk to villagers for the "prizes". Chrom can rapier Pegs and armors. Sully is comparable to him elsewhere.

Chapter 8 is probably in favor of Sully. First map where 1-2 range is a huge boon and she has more mobility despite being a cavalier. (there's a "road")

Then there's 2 second seals. Sully could either: go Wyvern Rider and try to be good in it or stay in the Cavalier branch because that's probably her best class. Chrom could take one of those seals to be a cavalier too, gaining discipline, which would help his lance rank (his sword rank will probably be B by now).

I see you like to say Wyvern Panne has wind and bow weaknesses that severely dampen her performance but when it comes to Sully, it's all fine and dandy if she goes wyvern, red fox. Bias, much?

[Chiki]

My view is that Cordelia and Sumia should be at the top below the Avatar.

[Constable Reggie]

That's some mighty great reasoning you got there.

[Chiki]

Everyone here knows the views and the reasoning I stand for, lol.

[Constable Reggie]

My bad, I forgot that saying "galefore lol also my views" is good enough reasoning for tier lists.

[Da Bear]

Sumia has fail durability and fail attack... I'm not understanding her even making S.

[Florete]

There we go again with the whole "but if he doesnt get exp hes not good"!

I hope this isn't for me because I said nothing of the sort.

I see you like to say Wyvern Panne has wind and bow weaknesses that severely dampen her performance but when it comes to Sully, it's all fine and dandy if she goes wyvern, red fox. Bias, much?

I see you like to ignore what hurts your argument. I've said in the past that, at least in Hard mode, Panne's weaknesses are not a huge deal. The difference here, though, is that Sully can function perfectly fine without them or take them with the advantages that they come with. Panne needs them to be worth her tier position.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Red Fox of Fire

[riariadne]

Sumia's durability and offense are only bad if you pretend her supports don't exist, which is something you seem fond of doing.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Liquid Snake

[Da Bear]

Sumia's durability and offense are only bad if you pretend her supports don't exist

Tiering Sumia high because she has great supports is fail reasoning.

[Chiki]

Sumia has fail durability and fail attack... I'm not understanding her even making S.

That is fixed with pair ups and tonics. It's not a big deal at all.

Sully and Panne are completely useless in an LTC playthrough whereas Sumia and Cordelia are essential.

[riariadne]

Tiering Sumia because her offense and mobility is great while her durability is fine if you're not sandbagging her, on the other hand, is not so bad.

I'm not arguing for S tier, but you're severely over exaggerating her flaws.

and once again olwen missed the part where this isn't ltc

Edited May 7, 2013 by Liquid Snake

[Da Bear]

That is fixed with pair ups and tonics. It's not a big deal at all.

Sully and Panne are completely useless in an LTC playthrough whereas Sumia and Cordelia are essential.

I wasn't aware this was a LTC tier list.

[PKL]

I hope this isn't for me because I said nothing of the sort.

I see you like to ignore what hurts your argument. I've said in the past that, at least in Hard mode, Panne's weaknesses are not a huge deal. The difference here, though, is that Sully can function perfectly fine without them or take them with the advantages that they come with. Panne needs them to be worth her tier position.

That wasnt at you, yeah. That was mostly at the others that were saying that Chrom is better as support so he falls behind if he's doing it. I feel like that really shouldnt count vs him.

Anyways ~

Sully can take the second seal to be a wyvern rider but in doing so, she sacrifices her other weapons and gets out of a class she started doing well in, while giving the second seal to panne would give you a Paladin Sully and a new flier.

[Chiki]

I don't even know why Panne and Sully are ranked so high when pair ups and tonics can fix everything in this game. Hard Mode is not difficult enough to warrant really high stats and reliability.

The only things that really matter here are availability and mobility. And there's no reason for Sumia and Cordelia not to go into top tier when you realize that their stats are not a big deal at all.

[Florete]

Sully can take the second seal to be a wyvern rider but in doing so, she sacrifices her other weapons and gets out of a class she started doing well in, while giving the second seal to panne would give you a Paladin Sully and a new flier.

None of my arguments that mentioned Wyvern Sully made it out to be essential, or even ideal. It's just an option. It's another role Sully can fill. It's probably her best bet if paired with Chrom since it fixes any Str problems she may have had and turns them into Spd problems instead. Panne needing the Second Seal to function is a disadvantage in comparison.

[Da Bear]

Tiering Sumia because her offense and mobility is great while her durability is fine if you're not sandbagging her, on the other hand, is not so bad.

I'm not arguing for S tier, but you're severely over exaggerating her flaws.

and once again olwen missed the part where this isn't ltc

She's the second frailest unit on the team, the only one she beats is Miriel, for quite a while unless she is overleveled... I'm not exaggerating much, if at all.