Your Favorite and Least Favorite Lord

[Cymbalina's Revenge]

But still! Is it fair to say that Lyn "has no story importance whatsoever" and "FE7 would be better off without her" when there's stuff pointing to the contrary? That's what I don't get. Even the smallest action can create a large chain reaction after all. Not to mention that it makes me wonder if the people saying that even heard of the "Lancer" trope.

In the overall Elibe saga, she doesn't have any importance. As RJW said above, she was imperfectly retconned into an existing story (same as Linoan), and she, her canton, and the men who served her all have to disappear without a trace. Roy is the actual hero of that continental saga, and Roy and everything about his tale do not require Lyn to exist. Even Sue's existence doesn't depend on Lyn's.

I personally find her and Linoan both pretty unsatisfying "heroines" as a consequence.

[BrightBow]

I keep hearing people say that "Lyn holds no story signifigance after her own tale in FE7". But honestly, if you take her out of FE7, then what? All you get is the party having no real way to track the Black Fang all the way back to their base. Which ultimately leads to both Zephiel's death and a time paradox. (Especially since the Eliwood and Hector have to be at the Black Fang's base to overhear Sonia's, Nino's Brendan's, and Jaffar's discussion on how to carry out Desmond's plans for Zephiel.)

The tracking part shows nicely why Lyn feels so tagged on.

They didn't need to track the Black Fang back to their base because the story doesn't care how they get there. It only cares that they do get there. Case in point: Finding Athos just a few chapters before.

The group was searching for him in the the massive dessert that makes up a fifth of the entire continent for him with no direction whatsoever. An effectively impossible task and yet they still managed to trip over Pent.

Of course it makes for a better story if stuff like this does get explained but there are tons of alternate explanations available.

For one thing, they could have tracked them themselves. Tracking isn't some sort of mystic art only possessed by selected tribes of Sacae. It's downright absurd that Eliwood wouldn't have scouts for just this purpose. Alternatively, they could have followed directions by the locals. Or questioned a prisoner. Or the same Ositian spies who tracked the Black Fang down on the island.

In fact, the entire situation is so embarrassingly forced, that Legault, one of the founding members of the Black Fang and best buds with Brendan and his sons, somehow doesn't know where their own base is.

Caelin would almost certainly be an enemy during the main story since, without Lyn, Lundgren would likely be the Marquess of Caelin since there would be no one to save Hausen. And considering how much of a monster Lundgren is, I wouldn't be surprised if he decided to team up with either Nergal, Darin, or both.

The chapters in Caelin were forced between Darin escaping Laus and Darin seeking shelter by his allies from the Black Fang.

I mean, look at it: Darin was outmatched by Eliwood, so he escapes ...into another country which he then invades.. That... doesn't make a lot of sense.

It is another contrived situation that had nothing to do with the plot beyond serving as an excuse to bring Lyn back into the story because there was simply no reason (or even a way) for Darin to casually take over Calin with Eliwood on is tail. Remove it and Darin simply goes directly to the Black Isles.

As for Lundgren... he is just there for Lyn to have a villain in the prologue. If it wasn't for Lyn, Caelin wouldn't have been involved in the story at all.

And while Lyn doesn't have to be present for Ninian to be rescued from Nergal's captivity during Lyn's Story, the same cannot be said for Nils who would certainly be captured by Nergal soon after he decides to go get help. And since Nergal only needs one of the two siblings, what would be stopping him from acting sooner? Capturing Elbert? A dragon would have been completely unleashed not a single moment after Nergal captures Elbert, leading up to all of Elibe either being destroyed by a berserk dragon, or Nergal destroying Elibe himself or even subjugating it.

If the twins didn't appear in the prologue, the consequence wouldn't be that they would have been captured. It simply means that Eliwood would have had his first meeting Ninian and later Nils on the Black Isles.

The scenario on the Black Isle does in no way require Eliwood and Ninian to have meet each other previously or add anything to their relationship because Eliwood saves and protects her either way.

I don't know about any of you, but I'd say that's pretty darn important. Maybe even Han Solo important.

More like Chewbacka important. But that's not quite true. While Chewbacka is never required for the plot, he adds a lot of color and humor to the story.

Lyn has no unique perspective on events she provides barely any color because she is almost always on line with Eliwood anyway.

All she gets are lines that are so generic that they could have been spoken by anyone in the group.

Her unique contributions are effectively limited to butting heads with Hector, bringing up her murdered tribe or her dead parents and reminding us that bandits are evil.

Edited February 11, 2014 by BrightBow

[Just call me AL]

For one thing, they could have tracked them themselves. Tracking isn't some sort of mystic art only possessed by selected tribes of Sacae. It's downright absurd that Eliwood wouldn't have scouts for just this purpose. Alternatively, they could have followed directions by the locals. Or questioned a prisoner. Or the same Ositian spies who tracked the Black Fang down on the island.

Yes, and by the time he would have gotten around to sending a scout or asking an Ostian spy, he would have lost Vaida right away. And by the time they even got around to finding out about the Black Fang's wherabouts, they would have moved. Plain and simple. And there would be no one to stop Zephiel from being killed. True, tracking isn't some sort of mystic art only possessed by selected tribes of Sacae. But you have to consider what other options are available on hand. Obviously when the two options you mention are momentarily unfeasable, what would be the next best thing? Sacaeans are generally expert hunters after all.

In fact, the entire situation is so embarrassingly forced, that Legault, one of the founding members of the Black Fang and best buds with Brendan and his sons, somehow doesn't know where their own base is.

Which could easily be covered by the fact that the Black Fang underwent different operations by the time Sonia even showed up. Remember, he said "current location". What that tells me is that the Black Fang often change their base of operations from time to time, and that they never stay in one place. And seeing how Pale Flower of Darkness has two different maps, I don't see why this is an issue.

The chapters in Caelin were forced between Darin escaping Laus and Darin seeking shelter by his allies from the Black Fang.

I mean, look at it: Darin was outmatched by Eliwood, so he escapes ...into another country which he then invades.. That... doesn't make a lot of sense.

You need to look at it in context. We already find out that Darin seeks to aid Nergal in his goals. Nergal needs a lot of Spirit Energy Quintessence to be able to summon a dragon from beyond the Dragon Gate so that he can take that dragon's Quintessence and gain the strength to best even dragons themselves. (Which only Brammimond has been able to do. And this is not considering why Nergal looked towards to draining the life of another life form in the first place.) Of course, Darin thinks Nergal's doing it so that he (Nergal) will make him (Darin) "ruler of the world".

If the twins didn't appear in the prologue, the consequence wouldn't be that they would have been captured. It simply means that Eliwood would have had his first meeting Ninian and later Nils on the Black Isles.

The scenario on the Black Isle does in no way require Eliwood and Ninian to have meet each other previously or add anything to their relationship because Eliwood saves and protects her either way.

Again. Nergal only needs one of either Ninian or Nils. If Lyn was absent from the plot, she wouldn't be able to prevent Nils from falling into Nergal's hands as soon as he escapes from said hands. And I've already brought up what would happen if that were the case.

Lyn has no unique perspective on the events. She provides no interesting character dynamic. She provides no color because she is almost always on line with Eliwood.

All she gets are lines that are so generic that they could have been spoken by everyone in the group.

Her unique contributions are effectively limited to bringing up her murdered tribe, her dead parents and reminding us that bandits are evil.

All I'm gonna say to this is that there are reasons why she is (Or would that be "was" now? Considering Lucina that is.) considered the most popular female Lord in the series. And there's literally no way anyone can say that any of the reasons why (even personality and character dynamic) are not valid in the slightest.

[Icon of Sin]

Linoan wasn't forced on us as much as Lyn. She could die or get captured and nobody would give a shit about her ever again.

Plus she was actually pretty amazing with staves and great PCC.

[RJWalker]

Lyn's popular because she was the first lord the western fanbase was exposed to from the actual games. Certainly not because of her personality.

[Just call me AL]

Lyn's popular because she was the first lord the western fanbase was exposed to from the actual games. Certainly not because of her personality.

Then explain why she's ranked as the second-most popular Lord character (behind only Marth) in the Knights of Iris artbook. An FE13 promotional material that was never released in the West.

Please note the following is the top ten list of FE lords taken from the list of most popular lord characters in the Knights of Iris artbook.

Marth

Lyn

Roy

Eirika

Sigurd

Alm

Ephraim

Seliph

Leif

Ike

[Azura]

No Elincia? I am disappointed, she should be counted as a lord.

My favourite lord apart from her is probably Ephraim. I don't really know why, I just like him. And he uses lances :3

Least favourite is Roy. He really annoys me.

[BrightBow]

Yes, and by the time he would have gotten around to sending a scout or asking an Ostian spy, he would have lost Vaida right away. And by the time they even got around to finding out about the Black Fang's wherabouts, they would have moved. Plain and simple. And there would be no one to stop Zephiel from being killed. True, tracking isn't some sort of mystic art only possessed by selected tribes of Sacae. But you have to consider what other options are available on hand. Obviously when the two options you mention are momentarily unfeasable, what would be the next best thing? Sacaeans are generally expert hunters after all.

Those methods are not unavailable. There is no logical reason that they couldn't have tracked them without Lyn.

It is a good idea that the story has her track them when she is already around anyway but it is no good justification to introduce her as a main character just to have her get rid of this plot irrelevant and artificial obstacle.

And it's missing the point: The group tracking down the Black Fang is only a problem because the story wants it to be a problem. What does this problem contribute to the story other then excuse Lyn' presence.

Which could easily be covered by the fact that the Black Fang underwent different operations by the time Sonia even showed up. Remember, he said "current location". What that tells me is that the Black Fang often change their base of operations from time to time, and that they never stay in one place. And seeing how Pale Flower of Darkness has two different maps, I don't see why this is an issue.

Legault didn't actually say that, though.

Legault: "Yes. Black Fang's headquarters are here in Bern. The location was never disclosed to me, though. The Black Fang is so much different than it once was. Any information we could gain would be beneficial."

He flat out says that nobody ever told him where the headquarters are. But that's besides the point.

The point is that the story bends desperately backwards for no other reason then to find justifications for Lyn's presence in the story. Yes, that is a sign of having no story significance. That is a sign that a characters is tagged on to the plot rather then being an actual, integral part of it.

You need to look at it in context. We already find out that Darin seeks to aid Nergal in his goals. Nergal needs a lot of Spirit Energy Quintessence to be able to summon a dragon from beyond the Dragon Gate so that he can take that dragon's Quintessence and gain the strength to best even dragons themselves. (Which only Brammimond has been able to do. And this is not considering why Nergal looked towards to draining the life of another life form in the first place.) Of course, Darin thinks Nergal's doing it so that he (Nergal) will make him (Darin) "ruler of the world".

That has absolutely nothing to do with what I said. Which is just as well, though since I made that mistake too since you weren't talking about Caelin's role in main plot. My apologies for that.

However my last line still answers the actual issue about Lundgren: "If it wasn't for Lyn, Caelin wouldn't have been involved in the story at all." Because he has no purpose in the story but serving as a villain in the prologue.

Again. Nergal only needs one of either Ninian or Nils. If Lyn was absent from the plot, she wouldn't be able to prevent Nils from falling into Nergal's hands as soon as he escapes from said hands. And I've already brought up what would happen if that were the case.

Stuff doesn't just happen automatically in a story. It happens because it's written that way.

So if Lyn wasn't there, the twins wouldn't have been captured at all.

They would only have been captured when the story needed them to be captured. Which is always going to be just in time for them to escape and meeting up with Eliwood.

Plus, you can't use her actions during the prologue to show that Lyn has story significance after the prologue.

All I'm gonna say to this is that there are reasons why she is (Or would that be "was" now? Considering Lucina that is.) considered the most popular female Lord in the series. And there's literally no way anyone can say that any of the reasons why (even personality and character dynamic) are not valid in the slightest.

And what are those reasons? This thread doesn't give much to work with in that regard,

Edited February 12, 2014 by BrightBow

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Lyn's popular because she was the first lord the western fanbase was exposed to from the actual games. Certainly not because of her personality.

2 Words

Female.

Swordmaster.

[BrightBow]

2 Words

Female.

Swordmaster.

Additionally to the usual swordfighter, her story features a player self insert that Lyn keeps gushing about despite him never doing anything. There are even several CG images with her looking at the player with her huge eyes and a big smile. Superficial moe as heck.

But as I said, I would love to hear an arguments in her favor.

Edited February 12, 2014 by BrightBow

[Florete]

Additionally to the usual swordfighter, her story features a player self insert that Lyn keeps gushing about despite him never doing anything. There are even several CG images with her looking at the player with her huge eyes and a big smile. Superficial moe as heck.

S/he is (supposedly) doing...well, exactly what it is you, as the player, does; directing everyone around on the battlefield. It's a bit awkward, but it's something. There are also only two CGs like that, one at the start and one at the end. Eliwood and Hector also get one each at the end of their modes.

[BrightBow]

S/he is (supposedly) doing...well, exactly what it is you, as the player, does; directing everyone around on the battlefield. It's a bit awkward, but it's something. There are also only two CGs like that, one at the start and one at the end. Eliwood and Hector also get one each at the end of their modes.

My apologies but are we even talking about the same thing? Because I merely wanted to point out that the game panders directly to the player and that this would naturally affect the popularity of Lyn if she is the one doing the gushing.

Sure, Eliwood and Hector do that too but by that point they don't even acknowledge Mark's presence all that often.

Even ignoring that, the tone is quite a bit different in Lyn's story.

As early as the first chapter, Lyn is taking care of the player, going as far as showing herself concerned about Mark being drained by the battle despite Mark doing no fighting. She shares her most intimate feelings with Mark, has to suppress her tears and begs Mark to train her and let her accomany him. So she shows herself a lot more devoted to the player, as well as more vulnerable, dependent and even subservant.

In Eliwood and Hector's story, he gets a lot of praise when he is even mentioned but it's not as intimate in any way. Their relationship is a lot more professional.

Edit:

Of course, none of that might even matter because the list that AL posted seems to correlate with the sales statistics of the games.

From what I remember, Telius and Thracia sold really bad, Monshu did the best and Seisen and Blazing Sword sold really good too.

So it might simply be a matter of exposure.

Edited February 13, 2014 by BrightBow

[RJWalker]

I do like how the player's self-insert gets demoted to an extra in terms of importance by the end of FE7.

[The Void]

Those methods are not unavailable. There is no logical reason that they couldn't have tracked them without Lyn.

It is a good idea that the story has her track them when she is already around anyway but it is no good justification to introduce her as a main character just to have her get rid of this plot irrelevant and artificial obstacle.

And it's missing the point: The group tracking down the Black Fang is only a problem because the story wants it to be a problem. What does this problem contribute to the story other then excuse Lyn' presence.

Thinking about it, why couldn't say, Matthew do that? He's a Thief, and I say tracking would be something a Thief would want to look into.

Edited February 13, 2014 by The Void

[RJWalker]

It really makes no sense that Legault wouldn't know the location of the Black Fang base. He personally knows everyone at the top. It seems to me that they needed Lyn to do something and made this non-sense decision so that she'd have osmething to do.

[Jotari]

The fact that Legault could be dead or unrecruited at that point is also something that should be considered. Though having a former Black Fang unit as an actual major character in the plot could work well.

[BrightBow]

The fact that Legault could be dead or unrecruited at that point is also something that should be considered. Though having a former Black Fang unit as an actual major character in the plot could work well.

Actually his dialog in chapter E23 is always going to play whether he is dead or not.

I know that because I simply killed him on my first playthrough since there were no hints on how to recruit him.

So I ended up being confused who that guy in C23 was.

Of course, logic dictates that this memory should be unreliable after 10 years.

Edited February 13, 2014 by BrightBow

[Jotari]

Actually his dialog in chapter E23 is always going to play whether he is dead or not.

I know that because I simply killed him on my first playthrough since there were no hints on how to recruit him.

So I ended up being confused who that guy in C23 was.

Of course, logic dictates that this memory should be unreliable after 10 years.

Is that just an oversight or does he have a retreat quote?

[BrightBow]

Is that just an oversight or does he have a retreat quote?

I would bet that this is an oversight. By default he even has a regular death quote, unlike all the other characters who are supposed to survive because of their role in the main plot or in the sequel. So even if he was recruited, you could kill him off before that chapter anyway. And I don't remember him rejoining.

But then again, it's been a decade.

[Florete]

My apologies but are we even talking about the same thing? Because I merely wanted to point out that the game panders directly to the player and that this would naturally affect the popularity of Lyn if she is the one doing the gushing.

I was merely clarifying and correcting some of your information. I didn't say I disagreed with anything else.

[BrightBow]

I was merely clarifying and correcting some of your information. I didn't say I disagreed with anything else.

Oh, that's what it was. Sorry for the inconvenience and thanks for the clarification.

[The Void]

Looking back, Legualt really should have known where the Black Fang's HQ. So yeah, whoever came up with Lyn's tracking scene was trying too hard to make Lyn important after the tutorial chapters.

[Jotari]

They should have made Lyn be the amnesiac embodiment of Idoun. That would have given her importance.

[Florete]

Oh, that's what it was. Sorry for the inconvenience and thanks for the clarification.

And for the record, I completely agree that Lyn is pretty much entirely unimportant after her own small story. It's one of the few problems I have with the game, as well as with Radiant Dawn (female lord you're introduced to at first gets sidelined later), though it's not as bad there.

[Garland Chaos]

Favorite: Sigurd or Roy, but for the sake of making things simple I'll say Sigurd. He's basically Marth if he took Jagen's horse and started out as a pre-promote. He's also one of the most kickass video game characters I've ever seen.

Least Favorite: Eirika. I hate her to death. She's basically Lyn, class-wise, but sword-locked for the whole game.