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starter type trianges


cyron
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What do you think about the concept of a pokemon game making use of an alternate starter triangle like flying/fighting/ice in place of grass/water/fire?

I personally think it would e very cool but that it would be cooler to have one starter for each type

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Well, ice isn't a terrible type but it just has a lotta weakness. As for having a starter for every type... nah, I don't think that'd be reasonable. It might seem like a good idea for a Pokemon game to come up with some new starter type triangles but at the same time, the grass/fire/water one is kinda like a tradition. It might yield negative results...

I have no idea on what else would seem like a good type for starters. Maybe I'm just stuck in the traditional types, but I think it should have three evolution types (as in like first - second-third).

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ice is a terrible type, 100%

But the idea itself is nice, dark - fighting - psychic imo would be better though.

Or even rock - ground - flying (Flying doesn't exactly beat ground but it is immune to it)

i just used ice flying fighting for an example but it could be any triangle

i do like the idea of dark fighting psychic, but wouldnt it be dark psychic fighting

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Well, ice isn't a terrible type but it just has a lotta weakness. As for having a starter for every type... nah, I don't think that'd be reasonable. It might seem like a good idea for a Pokemon game to come up with some new starter type triangles but at the same time, the grass/fire/water one is kinda like a tradition. It might yield negative results...

I have no idea on what else would seem like a good type for starters. Maybe I'm just stuck in the traditional types, but I think it should have three evolution types (as in like first - second-third).

No, it actually is a terrible type. What types of moves do not very effective damage vs ice types?

I'll answer it for you: 1, Ice vs Ice.

Ice is a good move type, it's a terrible pokemon type.

You can look at competitive battling as well, there are 2 uber ice types, one being Arceus-Ice, which I've never seen used, the other is Kyruem-R, which gets trashed by stealth rocks and usually needs to be scarfed to actually hit anything.

OU there's 3, Cloyster, which is usually just a focus sash lead with shell smash, Kyruem-B which needs roost to deal with stealth rocks, and Mamoswine, who is part ground so that alleviates it's stealth rocks weakness.

Then again, stealth rocks might just be OP

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In-game Ice is always fine, just like almsot every type (grass probably always has the hardest time, with the seeming plethora of poison types the evil team always seems to be packing). It's really only the competitive scene where Ice has problems, being a horrible defensive typing.

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any triangle that includes psychic/dark or flying/ground is broken, thanks to immunity. that would tilt the balance too much in favor of dark and flying for these cases.

there is no triangle that can be made according to the current pokemon type mechanics that is as perfectly balanced as the grass/fire/water one. i know, i've tried. i would rather them explore secondary typings, just like they did in Gen 4, i thought those beginners were pretty cool

Edited by Liz
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The starters could be grass/fire/water and have a secondary dark/psychic/fighting, so they are all simultaneously weak and strong against each other. I hope that's what they're doing with Gen VI.

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The starters could be grass/fire/water and have a secondary dark/psychic/fighting, so they are all simultaneously weak and strong against each other. I hope that's what they're doing with Gen VI.

that would be really cool and the pokemon sprites work for them

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I wholeheartedly disagree that giving the starters a secondary, reverse-typing scheme is cool and a good idea. For starters, it's a contrived idea that basically every fan thinks they want simply because they really want Dark/Psychic/Fighting starters instead, despite the fact that it doesn't even work as a perfect triangle. (While you're certainly entitled to your views, opinions, and wishes, it still doesn't remove the fact that because of the x0 multiplier, it just doesn't work.) Secondly, it completely removes the element of choice that the game presents to the player and ends up making the game even easier when you only consider the single player experience, since you will expressly be given moves that get STAB and are effective against the starter that your rival picked for the sole purpose of trying to upstage you in the beginning (or might only do x1 if the types balance their x2s and x0.5s out).

Then again, this is Game Freak we're talking about, so they'd likely take the silly option just to suit their whims. This is, of course, despite the fact that they could make an infinitely more impressive product if they set out and applied themselves creatively. Yes, they need to keep it accessible to young children, but that doesn't mean it needs to have the lowest common denominator of a plot and copy/paste'd design decisions based solely on tradition.

Honestly, with the Type Chart as it currently is, the only triangles I was able to notice that still preserve the x2 against one starter, x0.5 against the other are Grass/Ground/Poison and Rock/Flying/Fighting, and the latter only works against a pure-Flying type (of which there is only one Pokémon special enough to have it).

If Game Freak would actively attempt to do a full rebalance of the type chart (and, IMHO, the entire franchise from the ground up), perhaps something else might fall into place that would enable them to still keep the "Pick a starter" mechanic and use something other than Fire/Grass/Water. (Honestly, I'd love to see something more akin to Colosseum where everyone starts with the same party (of two) and you get the "Pick between three" moment after, like, the third gym (which I'd also rather see done away with, at least in the same way it's been done since 1996). It would at least vary the game up a bit.)

I haven't had time to do an analysis of this yet (of any kind, especially because it's a heavy WIP), but I set out to redistribute the Type Chart a while back; I don't know if it produces any "perfect triangles" that would be eligible for the normal Pokémon mechanic of starters or not or if the effectivenesses are so out of whack that it drastically makes things worse. I'll leave it below in the event that it sparks some more discussion on where this could potentially go:

Type Chart (Defending on top):
    +------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
    | Nm | Fr | Wt | El | Gs | Ic | Fg | Pn | Gd | Fl | Py | Bg | Rk | Gh | Dr | Dk | St |
+----+------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Nm |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    | .5 |    |    |    | .5 |
|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|
| Fr |    | .5 | .5 |    | x2 | x2 |    |    |    |    |    |    | .5 | x2 | .5 |    | x2 |
|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|
| Wt |    | x2 | .5 |    | .5 |    |    | x2 | x2 |    |    |    | x2 |    | .5 |    |    |
|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|
| El |    |    | x2 | .5 | .5 |    |    |    | x0 | x2 |    |    |    |    | .5 |    | x2 |
|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|
| Gs |    | .5 | x2 |    |    |    |    | .5 | x2 | .5 |    | .5 | x2 |    |    |    | .5 |
|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|
| Ic |    | .5 | .5 |    | x2 | .5 |    |    | x2 | x2 |    | x2 |    |    | x2 |    |    |
|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|
| Fg | x2 |    |    |    |    | x2 |    | .5 |    | .5 | .5 |    | x2 |    |    | x2 | .5 |
|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|
| Pn | x2 |    |    |    | x2 |    |    | .5 |    | x2 |    | x2 | .5 | .5 |    |    | x0 |
|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|
| Gd |    | x2 |    | x2 | .5 |    |    | x2 |    | x0 |    | .5 | x2 |    |    |    | x2 |
|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|
| Fl |    |    | x2 | .5 | x2 |    | x2 |    |    |    |    | x2 | .5 |    |    |    | .5 |
|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|
| Py |    |    |    |    |    |    | x2 | x2 |    |    | .5 |    |    |    |    | x0 | x2 |
|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|
| Bg |    |    |    |    | x2 | .5 | .5 |    |    | .5 | x2 |    |    |    |    | x2 | .5 |
|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|
| Rk |    | x2 |    | x2 |    | x2 | .5 |    | .5 |    |    | x2 | .5 |    |    |    | .5 |
|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|
| Gh |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    | x2 |    |    | x2 |    | .5 |    |
|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|
| Dr |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    | x2 |    |    |
|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|
| Dk |    |    |    |    |    |    | .5 |    |    |    | x2 |    |    | x2 |    | .5 | .5 |
|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|
| St |    | .5 | .5 | .5 |    | x2 |    |    |    |    |    |    | x2 |    |    |    | .5 |
+----+------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

(It should be noted that Ghosts have a unique mechanic in this implementation: They have an inherent property where all non-Ghost (all), non-Dark (all), non-Psychic (Special), and non-Fire (Special) moves have some kind of negative attribute (either -1 Accuracy or Attack/Special Attack level); this would be negated if it was daytime or Lock-On/Foresight/etc. was used, and would work against the Ghost if a Fire-type was active in battle (doesn't apply to self in the case of Chandelure) or Sunny Day/Drought was active. If in a cave that needs lit or at night, the ability works at 100-110%. (Again, very hypothetical - not sure how this would even play out in actual game scenarios.) This explains why Ghost is so radically different from the current Type Chart.)

(I'll check in on this later tomorrow; time to sleep for work in the morning.)

Edited by Lord Glenn
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do you support secondary typings that don't necessarily follow a reverse triangle scheme? or do you just not support secondary typings altogether?

i mean, because only Gen 2 has had all three starters be only single type.

my only complaint is that Gamefreak has been really reluctant to use different type combinations, and it would be cool if they did some of that for the starters.

i mean, i'm kind of bored of the whole fire/fighting, grass/poison, and water/ice that's all over the place, you know? i would like some unorthodox typings for the starters in their higher evolutions. like maybe a blacksmith fire/steel pokemon starter or something, i dunno. lol

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do you support secondary typings that don't necessarily follow a reverse triangle scheme? or do you just not support secondary typings altogether?

i mean, because only Gen 2 has had all three starters be only single type.

my only complaint is that Gamefreak has been really reluctant to use different type combinations, and it would be cool if they did some of that for the starters.

i mean, i'm kind of bored of the whole fire/fighting, grass/poison, and water/ice that's all over the place, you know? i would like some unorthodox typings for the starters in their higher evolutions. like maybe a blacksmith fire/steel pokemon starter or something, i dunno. lol

Yes, I support secondary typing, just not a reverse scheme. If Game Freak were to give Fennekin's final evolution Fire/Psychic typing, I'd be entirely fine with that, especially since it's such an underused typing. I just have an issue if they go Fire/Psychic, Water/Fighting, Grass/Dark for the three starters since, as I mentioned, it would end up making the single player experience even easier for the player. It might open up the competitive game more (I wouldn't really know, since I'm not really into that), but the competitive game really should be either a secondary focus or, at the very least, a 1B to the main game's 1A.

If I had to pick what I figure Game Freak will do for X/Y's starters and what I'd ideally do if I had to stick with Fire/Grass/Water starters (which, again, as I mentioned above, I'd much rather see them stray away from at least for a while):

-Game Freak, My Thoughts-

Fennekin - Fire/Psychic or Fire/Dark

Froakie - Water or Water/Flying

Chespin - Grass/Ground or Grass/Steel

-Game Freak, Silly-

Fennekin - Fire/Psychic

Froakie - Water/Fighting

Chespin - Grass/Dark

-My Ideal Fire/Grass/Water, if required to have secondary types-

Fire/Poison

Grass/Fighting

Water/Ghost

--------------------

Steel/Rock/Fire is another triangle that I just saw that maintains the existing starter effectivenesses. Rock and Steel are kinda similar though, so I wouldn't think that this would be a good triangle to pick to replace Fire/Water/Grass. Or, maybe it's a great one, since it could be used to give some additional characterization to Rock and Steel (i.e. that they're not mostly slow, tanky Pokémon)...?

Edited by Lord Glenn
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Some of the decisions in that type chart make very little sense. It feels like you added the special Ghost thing just because they're ghosts rather than for any actual reason. And then for some other types it feels like you might have added stuff simply for balance rather than it making any sense at all (Flying being SE against Water and Water being SE against Poison). I can't see why Dragon needs to become a better offensive type by removing Steel's strength against it, although you did nerf its defensive strengths somewhat.

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Some of the decisions in that type chart make very little sense. It feels like you added the special Ghost thing just because they're ghosts rather than for any actual reason. And then for some other types it feels like you might have added stuff simply for balance rather than it making any sense at all (Flying being SE against Water and Water being SE against Poison). I can't see why Dragon needs to become a better offensive type by removing Steel's strength against it, although you did nerf its defensive strengths somewhat.

My rationale for the changes to Ghosts stemmed more from the fact that as mechanics have evolved, the Type Chart still reflects the era before those mechanics vastly changed things. It made sense for Normal and Fighting moves to be completely ineffective against Ghosts since they were physical moves before Gen IV gave designations to individual attacks. (Though, ostensibly for balance purposes, they also didn't make all of the other physical types (outside of Dark and itself) ineffective, creating somewhat of a logical inconsistency.)

If the physical nature of the types was the reason they don't work, why isn't ThunderPunch held to the same standard? Or, why are Swift and Hyper Beam counted in with the physical moves? It's these questions that made me attempt to retool the system as I described. I wanted to keep the semblance of being ethereal and able to avoid physical moves while allowing moves that had previously been rendered useless a chance to be removed from that burden. Yes, it makes things more complicated for younger players and it certainly might not be completely thought out yet, but I never claimed that it was ;].

Some of the changes were made for balance, others were made based on common sense and logic. Poison kills bugs, hence adding it to the Type Chart. Steel is a metal, and metal conducts electricity, hence why Electric is now x2 against Steel.

Others, such as Psychic being effective against Steel were more of a stretch; Steel was pretty nasty with the number of x0.5 multipliers it had and I can see Psychic as something akin to Magneto's abilities in the Marvel Universe (being able to bend and manipulate metals, etc.). So, as a check to Steel, I changed it from x0.5 to x2. Similarly, it didn't really make sense to me as to why Dragon moves were resisted by Steel-types, so I changed it to x1.

Rock being effective against Electric was purely a balance change, one which I struggled to decide whether to do; Electric's only counter was Ground (both offensively and defensively), so I felt like it needed something else, but nothing else really seemed to fit nicely. Flying > Water was based on birds catching fish from streams (as well as making the revised Poison and Flying different in terms of what they dealt effective damage to) and Water > Poison was based on liquids diluting the potency of things like poison.

Like I said, it's a heavy WIP and I fully hoped that everyone else would chime in with suggestions for changes that could also facilitate making other "perfect triangles" of types that could be used in place of Fire/Grass/Water for starters. (Which, as I mentioned, I hadn't really had time to crunch the values in the table and see if I had created anything on that level or not; something that might be premature to do anyway if radical changes would need to be made to adjust the chart anyway.)

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Poison may as well be effective against Water as well, considering the impact of oïl disasters like BP. At the same time, bugs tend to adapt well to Poison, as seen by them adapting to pesticides used on crops, so I don't think Poison should be effective against Bug types.

I'm not exactly sure why you removed Fire's effectiveness against Bugs either, since they tend to die under heat or flame easily. Plus, there's also the possibility of setting fire to small insects using a piece of glass.

To go with Fire effective against Ghosts, I'd propose Ice to be not very effective against them. I'd also give Ice effectiveness against Water, especially when you consider a good amount of Water types are based on cold blooded creatures that don't like cold much. Still related to Ice, I'd also consider making Normal super effective against it to balance its offensive prowess and new resistances.

If you mention Electric needing a new weakness instead of Rock types, I'd consider Ghost types, which are often found in fiction to mess up with various electric appliances and to really make it different from Dark types, or Bug types, which can likely damage the interior of most machines if left untreated for too long. Rock was best at shooting down Flying types IMO.

Dragon really could use something to block its power. Steel was fine enough as it is.

Dark good against Dragons wouldn't be a bad idea, since a good way to bring down such a mighty creature would be through unfair tactics.

It's a nice idea but I don't think GF is going to do much balancing about this.

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  • 4 weeks later...

ice is a terrible type, 100%

But the idea itself is nice, dark - fighting - psychic imo would be better though.

Or even rock - ground - flying (Flying doesn't exactly beat ground but it is immune to it)

FUCK YOU ICE IS MY FAVORITE TYPE

Yeah it is pretty terrible.

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  • 4 weeks later...

do you support secondary typings that don't necessarily follow a reverse triangle scheme? or do you just not support secondary typings altogether?

I liked what they attempted to do in Gen IV where they gave each Starter's final evolution a very desirable and useful type.

Fighting, Ground and Steel were some solid additional types.

Having said that I am pretty drawn to the Psychic/Dark/Fighting combo, it's not perfect but it at least makes the secondary typings neater and more connected.

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