Legault! Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 (edited) The following ground rules are laid down: Difficulty: Lunatic Mode. Normal and Hard are a bit too loleasy for there to be a worthwhile tier list for it, and any Lunatic+ tier list would likely be just a more extreme version of the current tier list. Efficiency: We are moving at a brisk pace [PLEASE NOTE THAT THIS IS UP FOR DISCUSSION], but this isn't an absolute minimum LTC tier list. Paralogues: No Children Paralogues [this is also up for discussion, but they needlessly complicate things]; all other Paralogues must be done as soon as they are unlocked. Barracks: Not allowed. Skirmishes / DLC / Spotpass Battles/Shops: Not allowed. Map Shopping: Allowed, but you may not buy Anna Shop special items. Event Tiles: No items; you can take advantage of experience / support boosts. Renown: No renown. Recruitment: All first-generation characters are recruited. Even Donnel IMPORTANT NOTE: I am not infallible. Please question all of these presuppositions. In addition, please stay on topic and make sure that every post includes an Awakening-related argument; saying "I agree with X" is not good enough. Add in some of your own thoughts. Seth Tier: Avatar You Need Him In Your Life Tier: Frederick PLEASE IGNORE THE FOLLOWING UNTIL "BRISK PACE" IS RESOLVED AS THESE ARE PLACEHOLDERS Tier(s): S Tier: Panne Lucina (Avatar) Chrom Sully A Tier: Stahl Lon'qu Anna Sumia Cordelia Lucina (Sully / Sumia) B Tier: Tharja Miriel Vaike Cherche Nowi Gregor Libra Lucina (Anyone Else) C Tier: Tiki Gaius Kellam Lissa Maribelle Say'ri Olivia Henry D Tier: Virion Donnel Ricken Basilio Flavia I assume the top two spots will remain uncontroversial. First order of business is figuring out what we mean by "brisk pace." I welcome any and all suggestions. Edited March 27, 2013 by Legault! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constable Reggie Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 (edited) Frederick above Frederick, Frederick's absolutely crucial in lunatic to be below Frederick. edit: damn you for editing him out right before my post Edited March 27, 2013 by Constable Reggie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legault! Posted March 27, 2013 Author Share Posted March 27, 2013 Frederick above Frederick, Frederick's absolutely crucial in lunatic to be below Frederick. edit: damn you for editing him out right before my post Don't underestimate my editing skills. And I'll actually be updating this list often Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Sage Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 How brisk is brisk? Furthermore, what does brisk mean? Finally may I have a brisket? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legault! Posted March 27, 2013 Author Share Posted March 27, 2013 (edited) How brisk is brisk? Furthermore, what does brisk mean? "Brisk" roughly means completing the game in a reasonable amount of time. The idea behind this restriction is to avoid ranking characters according to absolute LTC (lowest turns conceivably possible), which is where undefined standards tend to end up. How brisk is brisk? That's the question of the evening. One temptation is to set a defined turn count for all maps, but this becomes very arbitrary: why (say) 200 total turns and not 205? It's my hope that purifying the list from additional problems (like children units that are not Lucina) will make this question easier to address, and, as I said, I'm open to suggestions. EDIT: For the sake of spurring discussion, here are some of my preliminary thoughts about "brisk" criteria and what does and doesn't work. I'll be updating this as/if suggestions come in. Could Work Having fixed turn totals -> Mentioned above, this means outlining a set number of turns within which a map can be reasonably completed. Yes, this is highly arbitrary; once these turn counts are established, however, the list becomes pretty objective. And turn totals can always be questioned in the future. Doesn't Work Having a "range" of turn totals -> If the concern is total turn counts becoming arbitrary, one might think to create a range of turns instead of a fixed limit. Instead of saying Ch.7 must be completed in six turns, for example, why not 5-7? The issue here is that it devolves into extremes depending on what is valued: if we reward units who can finish chapters more quickly, then the lower limit will always be given greater weight; if we don't reward such units, then the higher limit will always be assumed, as more turns equals more experience and lower risk. Edited March 27, 2013 by Legault! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recondite Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Why isn't Donnel last? I didn't try very hard but I feel like training him isn't actually feasible in anything approaching LTC. Lissa and Kellam feel low, but I suppose they were only able to be good because I played nothing approaching brisk. Still feel like they're better than Gaius' crappy offense and defense (is he this high for utility? Isn't Anna just strictly better for that purpose?) I feel like ranking the children should be possible, and comparing them to the main units is possible. Quite a few of them are better than Donnel. I assume from the low position of Lissa and Maribelle that Rescue is not being abused? Or are we just giving Anna and Libra sole monopoly on that (entirely reasonable because they can do it and live)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randa Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 A valid reason for why Donnel should be in last is that you have to waste exp just to get him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recondite Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 I found that the most expeditious thing was to kill him off in his join chapter. >.> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Integrity Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 (edited) That would depend on if characters are assumed to be recruited. Edited March 27, 2013 by Integrity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legault! Posted March 27, 2013 Author Share Posted March 27, 2013 (edited) [questions about placement] Those are placeholder rankings graciously borrowed from SDS's Hard Mode list. I imagine most of them will change significantly. Regarding Donnel: though he'll be recruited, training him is nightmarish on Lunatic and almost certainly not worth it. Even Ricken should be higher, as fliers are dangerous and Ricken is a pre-packaged two-range, effective might machine. I feel like ranking the children should be possible, and comparing them to the main units is possible. Quite a few of them are better than Donnel. Which maps are assumed completed? Some are far too difficult to reliably complete until Endgame, if that. How do we handle the extra experience gained from such maps? Do we consider which parent combinations create the best children? There are so many concerns and variables here that allowing children into the list seems like needless complication. EDIT: Added in the Recruitment policy to the OP. All units are assumed to be recruited so long as they're first-gen. Edited March 27, 2013 by Legault! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recondite Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 (edited) I figured we could add in the kids from the maps than can actually be completed in a reasonable time frame (Kjelle, Brady, Morgan, Yarne...). Perhaps it would be possible to standardize when these maps are being completed. The parent question is a little trickier, but leaving them out is really lame. Another thing, I found Stahl to be better than Sully in Lunatic. Her extra speed isn't that relevant when she won't be doubling for quite a while anyway, and as early as chapter 4 she's getting ORKO'd if she doesn't proc any durability. (Although I suppose Stahl needs to pick up some speed in a hurry) Edited March 27, 2013 by Recondite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Integrity Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 (edited) I'd figure it would be better to actually sort out the basics and THEN in a few weeks you can start saying "okay now what about the kids", or? Edited March 27, 2013 by Integrity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elieson Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Ricken dies very easily. Quite the headache to keep alive if using him for combat. Lissa low? Come on, her bases blow but every 5 heals she gains a level, and her growths are good. Insta-Sage for better MAG give her long term use. Lissa for Top of C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recondite Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 I'd figure it would be better to actually sort out the basics and THEN in a few weeks you can start saying "okay now what about the kids", or? Fair enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randa Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Why is gauis above Say'ri? She comes with decent bases good growths and has actual combat abilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gergeshwan Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 One possible alternative to setting a fixed turn total is to go as fast as you can without passing below a certain reliability threshold (i.e. go for minimum LTC on each chapter without passing below, say, 50% success rate). I don't know if this would actually be a good idea though. It's just as arbitrary as setting a turn threshold and would be a great deal more complicated to check. I think Stahl could drop a fair amount once it's time for character discussion. Getting doubled by almost everything without a +Spd support makes it really difficult to get him going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legault! Posted March 27, 2013 Author Share Posted March 27, 2013 I'd figure it would be better to actually sort out the basics and THEN in a few weeks you can start saying "okay now what about the kids", or? This is another good option, although including children means having to re-evaluate certain first generation characters. For example: If Kjelle's map is deemed reliably completed on Lunatic, then Sully immediately gets a big bump, as getting her a partner early means more experience. Just to be clear: 1. IGNORE THE CURRENT RANKINGS 2. TALK ABOUT BRISK PACE Until we resolve number two, all other discussions are meaningless. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constable Reggie Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 (edited) Donnel needs to drop to bottom. He's impossible to train. The healers should probably move up, since they're much more valuable than they are in hard. edit: what the fuck you're STILL going to talk about "brisk pace" shit? Why don't we just call this thread "Brisk Pace in Awakening - What is it?" Edited March 27, 2013 by Constable Reggie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inui Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 (edited) Still not a fan of "remove half the game so we can discuss a tier list" lol... Just do LTC and legalize discussing things actually in the game that aren't DLC, Risen challenges and Anna shops including. ANYWAYS Flavia and Basilio get huge stat boosts in Lunatic. Have you seen Flavia? I'm sure her level 10 Hero stats wtfpwn Gregor or Vaike's. Edited March 27, 2013 by Inui Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recondite Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 (edited) I think we all have a decent idea of what "brisk" means. We can worry about semantics later. Flavia and Basilio are certainly more useful in Lunatic, but they still have no availability. Ricken's crappy ORKOable chip is probably better. Edited March 27, 2013 by Recondite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randa Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Why not define a brisk pace as no more than a half dozen turns above the lowest possible number of turns per level? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recondite Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Or maybe a fixed percentage more than that baseline? 20%? It would be nice if it wasn't in basically-Avatar-and-partner-solo range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legault! Posted March 27, 2013 Author Share Posted March 27, 2013 edit: what the fuck you're STILL going to talk about "brisk pace" shit? Why don't we just call this thread "Brisk Pace in Awakening - What is it?" Well-defined standards are essential in a list like this. Please try and remain respectful. Still not a fan of "remove half the game so we can discuss a tier list" lol... Just do LTC and legalize discussing things actually in the game that aren't DLC, Risen challenges and Anna shops including. Couple of things here: 1. Most of the children units will be garbage. As only a few units are going to be proactively used in Lunatic due to the necessity of building up SuperUnits, those children with weak parents will acquire low stats at a paltry base level 10. 2. An inescapable consequence of adding in children will be re-evaluating first generation mothers based on how feasible their children maps are early on. S-Ranking Sully becomes a priority over Nowi as Kjelle's map is far easier than Nah's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quick Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Lissa IMO should be B tier. She's super easy to level up even if you take a "brisk pace" and once you do you have a great Rescuer and another healer with Libra. From my experience it makes turns super easier and both healers are VERY beneficial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legault! Posted March 27, 2013 Author Share Posted March 27, 2013 Why not define a brisk pace as no more than a half dozen turns above the lowest possible number of turns per level? If I'm understanding you correctly, this is the "turn limit" approach with a fixed formula. I like it. +6 does seem a little high; how about +4? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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