Marcus in HHM

[Espinosa]

I'm fond of using Marcus in HHM efficiency but I have this mean boy coming out of Lyn Mode (43-turned with 7x included):

Sain 13/1(.98)

HP 29

Str 18

Skl 8

Spd 18

Lck 8

Def 13

Res 2

He promoted before chapter 10 because I was some wexp short of reaching C swords for Lancereaver but mostly so that I'd have two Paladins going into HHM. As you can see, his lead over Marcus in speed is huge (and is reached at 20/10 by Sain on average) and he's also noticeably more durable defensively. In this run Marcus has proc'd strength on his first and only level-up thus far, so Marcus isn't too far behind in strength (Sain obviously grows his more reliably) and wins in hit rates, weapon ranks and ability to face magical enemies forever. With just 2 res, Sain won't feel very comfortable going into Cog of Destiny for example, unlike folks like Marcus and Hawkeye (going to forfeit Harken). I also have a rather res-blessed Kent (5 res at 7/0) who would work wonders in such maps in comparison.

So I wanted to ask for advice from people who finished their efficiency runs before (I keep restarting mine over and over), which one of Marcus and Sain should I focus on? Clearly both will be used, but there's usually just one bosskill to feed them in each map, so one will be growing at the expense of another. Each has his own advantages, and while Marcus one-rounds more reliably, Sain's combat parameters make him more suited for taking out bosses quickly. He's already doubling Uhai and Aion with his current speed (I needed 13 AS to double the Shaman boss in chapter 7 but he went ahead and continued proccing speed after that too) for what it's worth. So while feeding Marcus kills makes him "useable" for the rest of the game (perhaps more than that if I massage his level-ups), focusing bosskill exp on Sain would make him fit for some more challenging tasks, but not all of them. There's also Heath who might want some of those kills as the most proficient fighter among the available fliers.

On another note, is there any need for a second proficient Warp user (with high Mag) in addition to Pent for the lategame maps? I'm wondering how much I should focus on raising Lucius. Clearly he's levelling up to get me Kenneth's map, but the Physic/Barrier spam is an expensive investment indeed. Are Serra and Priscilla ever in the situation where they wish they had more magic than average? I recall hearing something about only one of them being viable in maximum efficiency (makes sense as you need the right combat units to shave off as many turns as you can) and Priscilla no longer being considered as crucial as she was years ago, and the last tier discussion came to a halt ~2 years ago.

[General Horace]

I used Heath in cog with little consequence, he did have around 11 resistance with a talisman though. As long as you have someone else to eat status staves you'll be fine.

As for Marcus, his bases will still probably trump a trained Kent regardless due to his inability to get exp, so definatly use him long term. His skill is actually a pretty big boon over sain too in chapters like dread isle with lots of forest.

[Espinosa]

Sounds like a fairly res-blessed Heath. With 2 base res and a 20% growth he's not growing much of it anytime soon, and he's really in the danger zone unless somebody can sponge the status staves.

I'm definitely hanging on to Marcus for a good portion of the game (possibly for the entirety of it), the only question being how many resources (if any at all) he should be given. Guess it doesn't hurt if I make one choice and go with it, seeing how it unfolds.

[Gergeshwan]

Given the Sain you have, it looks like he'll be fine even if you neglect him somewhat. Marcus would really like to not be doubled for cog, especially if you won't have Harken. Of course, this is coming from someone who got completely stuck there, so take it for what it's worth. I also found feeding experience to Heath to be a very worthwhile investment.

As for Warp users, Pent was enough to make it through all my theorycrafting except for possibly Victory or Death (can't remember what my plan for that was). While they can't both be trained feasibly, one of Serra/Priscilla can reasonably provide assistance there. Sorry that wasn't more helpful.

[General Horace]

Lucius really sucks when going quickly, he can't get exp at all, unless he got a few levels in lyn mode, which is pretty doubtful.

I had Canas hit A staves, but he was Mag screwed regardless. Pent is usually enough regardless.

[Espinosa]

Gergeshwan: you ended up stuck on CoG? Now I know why your recorded run got cut off... Average Marcus needs to be /17 with a Speedwings to prevent himself from being doubled by any of the Valks apparently, so that's quite a huge investment of combat exp. Just 4 speed level-ups if I am to control them, though. Isadora and Kent get there more reliably, I guess.

I got Lucius 1 level-up in Lyn Mode so he's not emerging as anything good in HHM... but it's not like he can ever take more than one hit anyway. Promoted Canas sounds interesting; was that in a draft? He'd have to spam staves more than Lucius to get to A staves, but he's also closer to promotion, especially if you pull off the Canas drop strategy.

[General Horace]

no, it wasn't a draft, anybody who uses staffs can easily get to warp due to the huge amount of defence chapters. Buying torch and barrier staves help a lot, but its possible just with the dread isle torch staff and mend/physic spam. If you're lucky enough with Canas's speed, he can actually turn into a decent combatant with flux, although it is a tad expensive.

Edited April 2, 2013 by General Horace

[Espinosa]

E staves does take time (precisely 15 Heals) to get out of, at which point you can begin spamming Mend and Torch. Quite a long way to A staves, even though Ninianand chapters like 26 & 28 help a lot. Canas doesn't grow as much magic as Lucius when levelling up, but the difference is negligible considering neither will gain too many levels unpromoted and Canas's tomes are stronger.

I'm in chapter 15 and just switched out Guy, Dorcas and Bartre from the party. They gained 2, 1 and 0 levels respectively in the early HHM chapters. Matthew got to C swords (nearly 9/0) and somehow has 7 defence so he can kinda imitate Guy's combat with a Killing Edge. Not a combat unit regardless, but he can fight until better units arrive. Raven (compensating for the absence of Harken) will probably level up a ton though, but I'm thinking that by limiting the use of the other Hero Crest users I can save up the monetary resources and deployment slots needed to get a yesterday's mage to a high staff level.

Thinking about it, a double Warp from Pent after a dance is about the same as two Warps, and carrying Ninian/Nils is about equal to carrying a foot unit who uses staves. Priscilla can always use the Restore and Hammerne staves, too, and can rescue others instead of needing to be rescued.

[Vorena]

So, 15 heal to D. 8 turns minimum. 8 Torch to C, 4 turns minimum. 13 Barrier to B, 7 turns minimum. 15 Barrier to A, 8 turns minimum.

So, 27 turns. Not optimal with B rank, but pretty close and assuming dance every turn. I am suprised how quickly you could get to rank A given you only need ~300 turns for S rank.

[Espinosa]

Has anybody managed to steal both the Elysian Whip and the Guiding Ring in a 3-turn completion of chapter 18? Because in that case, Canas can promote and start spamming Heal as early as chapter 19 (good place to Torch too, but no D staves, sorry Canas).

[Refa]

He should be able to get it if he starts as late as Chapter 26, especially if you glue a dancer on to him in 26 and 28.

[Espinosa]

Remember that "Res-blessed" Kent I mentioned? Compare:

Lowen 8/0

HP 27

Str 11

Skl 8

Spd 10

Luck 5

Def 13

Res 1

D lances/swords (close to C lances)

"Who's Oswin and what was his niche again?"

Kent 7/0

HP 26

Str 11

Skl 11

Spd 10

Luck 3

Def 5

Res 5

C swords, D lances

Yeah...

Kent is pretty strength-blessed (he didn't get the Lyn Mode Energy Ring because I 3-turned map 10) , but his speed and defence are pretty bad... compared to that Lowen. Let's give Kent some time to grow and see how these two develop. My Eliwood (6/0) is ridiculous too, proc'd strength and defence on each of his 5 levels.

Also, I managed to 3-turn Noble Lady of Caelin. I also have a plan to 1-turn chapter 24 Lloyd, which involves promoted Rath, so let's see how that goes. Is it normal for Lloyd to proc 20 (not 21) speed? Because my current 13/2 Sain is 5 points of AS away from doubling him, with quite a few maps ahead until then.

Edited April 3, 2013 by Espinosa

[SB.]

Wait, you 3 turned Ch16? How? I don't have a clue how Florina would survive the trip, and kill the boss. Did you mine glitch or something?

Also 1 turning Lloyd isn't really too difficult (well, it wasn't in a lot of my HNM drafts), all you need is a Torch Staff and a Paladin who can 2HKO Lloyd with a Spear. Dunno if it's doable in HHM though, with how bulky he is. Unless you need 3+ whips, you could skip the boat Whip and grab the ones in Chapter 21 (2 turnable with it anyway) and in 25.

[Espinosa]

lol Florina didn't kill the boss, Marcus did. Her survival wasn't that bad and she had a turn to use a Vulnerary. Hector is the one who was about to die however, hanging on to life at 3 HP (defence blessed but low speed). I think I'll redo the map and shop differently though, as I don't have Javelins to give to every single mounted unit I have (I seriously want to field Florina in spite of the bow weakness) in chapter 17. Steel Axes and Swords can wait until the ship.

Lloyd has 44HP/9 def, so you need to land 2 hits with 31 atk on him (30 atk with a Short Spear). Sain should have no trouble whatsoever getting to 21 strength, but 25 speed is more worrisome (he already has way more than average though). There's also the option of using Brave Bow!Rath with at least 11 strength in combination with Ninian's Filla's Might. This is kind of a resource misdistribution (who seriously uses Rath longterm?) but the biggest problem is that Ninian's dance won't help a flier reach the Earth Seal village and that's a ton of killer weapons missed right there.

edit: remembered Paladins cap speed at 24. No Earth Seal for me then.

Not sure if it's common knowledge/anybody's interested to hear it, but I wanted to state that having a second Paladin is the only way to 6-turn chapter 17. Lucius cannot be recruited (obviously).

Good thing I have a blessed Erk.

Good Lord, I actually managed a 2-turn of 17x (Fargus's map); didn't think it was possible at all. Also demands a second Paladin by the way. Anybody want to see videos of this? I've been recording everything just so that I can replicate the strats if I am ever to redo the run again (which is to be expected knowing my OCD). Will probably end up on YouTube as I'm running out of disk space.

Also Narga, what did you edit in that post if you don't mind my asking? I don't think I even cussed or anything.

Edited April 4, 2013 by Narga_Rocks

[Narga_Rocks]

Same reason I edited the last one. Double (now triple) posting.

I'm not absolutely sure if it's the right call, though. I'm seeing this topic as an advice thread and not a log, so the double posting rules are in effect. If you meant for this to be a kind of log, then double-posting (for you only) would be okay as long as each double post is "updating" us on your run. So, yeah, if you meant it that way, oops. Probably didn't need to merge your posts together.