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Espinosa

FE7 LHM + HHM Low Turn Attempt

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YouTube playlist:

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLbSv8zSDR9c0XWTNe8cDJBsbjljp4jA2b

Narga said it'd make more sense if I kept a playlog of my run instead of double posting in advice threads so I thought I'd start a new topic documenting my progress.

I've been re-doing a LTC run of Blazing Sword multiple times during the last couple of years. Recently I redid the Lyn Mode portion because I wasn't happy with the resource allocation, namely the experience and bosskill distribution. My discovery of beamcrash videos and GeneralHorace's approach to FE8 made me more aware of what it takes to achieve the lowest turn count so the progress in my playing has been very noticeable.

I don't think I can surprise anybody with FE7 efficiency in the year of 2013, but I think this continuous LTC run has already had many interesting achievements. Besides the actual lowest turns, I will often aim, whenever possible, to obtain the items that are worth my time (e.g. my Pirate Ship 3-turn has me steal both the promotion items as well as a Pure Water from one of the Shamans) and, of course, train my units to continue performing adequately.

General rules/assumptions behind the playthrough:
- LHM is played prior to playing HHM, with efficiency continuity between the two
- All Gaiden chapters besides 19xx (due to the absurdity of the requirement in LTC) in spite of the extra turns taken involved and sometimes also needing to take additional turns to fulfill the requirement (see desert chapter)
- Character recruitment (not to mention the availability of promotion items) can be ignored if their presence is detrimental to turn counts

A few notes on RNG/reliability as relevant to this runthrough:
- This is not a full-fledged reliability/reliable efficiency run, as some of the strats will be riskier/less reliable but mainly because there are too many variables involved that makes repeatability in another playthrough problematic (the RN string controlling the combat outcomes, and level-up differences such as an extra point in skill being enough to determine whether a particular attack will connect or crit)
- I do not have any means to literally look into the game's current RN state (aside from playing a turn and seeing what happens) nor can I hack it
- This means perfect level-ups are unlikely to be observed (don't believe I've had one on this run yet)
- Nevertheless, for the purpose of meeting certain "magic number" requirements or simply maintaining a competent team of units in a context where I have little time to train outside of defence chapters in a fast-paced run, I have and will continue to try getting good levels. This mini-goal tends to interfere with survivability on enemy phase in some of the "rushes" not to mention connecting the bosskilling attacks, so some characters will get quite RNG-blessed (right now the luckiest is Eliwood with str/def increases on each level-up), others not nearly as much (Kent is the biggest offender with very mediocre durability, and I also wish Marcus grew some speed which he hasn't yet done).

Turn counts

P 5 turns
1 4 turns
2 4 turns
3 3 turns
4 8 turns
5 3 turns
6 3 turns
7 1 turn
7x 3 turns
8 3 turns
9 3 turns
10 3 turns
11 6 turns
12 4 turns
13 5 turns
13x 8 turns
14 4 turns
15 8 turns
16 3 turns
17 6 turns
17x 2 turns
18 3 turns
19 3 turns
19x 3 turns
20 5 turns
21 2 turns
22 3 turns
23 4 turns
23x 4 turns
24 1 turn
25 2 turns
26 12 turns
27 5 turns
28 16 turns
28x 3 turns
29 5 turns
30 4 turns



Resource allocation

6 Angelic Robe Florina
10 Energy Ring missed
12 Secret Book sold
14 Goddess Icon sold
15 Dracoshield hoarding
17x Secret Book sold
19x Goddess Icon sold
22 Angelic Robe Ninian
23x AfasDrops Heath
27 Speedwings hoarding
27 Talisman hoarding, probably Heath
28 Boots Heath
28x Speedwings hoarding



Promotions

10 Sain
20 Florina
27 Rath
27 Heath
27 Lowen
28x Priscilla
29 Eliwood



Prologue - Chapter 10



The entirety of Lyn Hard Mode is in this video. If you go directly to the YouTube page, you can click on the time numbers in the description to immediately go to specific chapters (as well as the turn count).

The focus of the LHM clears, besides low-turning everything, was training Sain (emerges at 13/1 at the end of Lyn Mode) and Florina (takes the robe), to a lesser extent Kent and to an even lesser extent everyone else. I have found out (and will some time in the nearest future certify with video evidence) that a second Paladin is the only way to 6-turn chapter 17 and 2-turn chapter 17x. Edited by Espinosa

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First three chapters of HHM, more or less standard clears so I put them together into one vid (6, 4 and 5 turns respectively for maps 11-13).

Watching my own video again, I begin to wonder if chapter 13 can be 4-turned without rigging Marcus's crit off a regular weapon (iron axe/lance/silver lance/whatever you use to hit him with). Theorycrafting, Guy can be provoked to attack Marcus on turn 2, at which point Matthew recruits him on turn 3 (the enemies in the southern part of the map are so much more easily avoided entirely), then Guy would pass the Killing Edge to Marcus. However, I'm not sure if Marcus is capable of dropping Hector in seize range on turn 3. Just by counting squares, it should be possible; however, for me Marcus never starts out in the southeastern part of the map (though in dondon's run he does appear there for some reason...).

Anyway, going down south would be a massacre that puts people under high risk of death (including Marcus I imagine, since you have nobody else with equal ORKO potential) and I think going to chapter 13x would also be impossible, as you'd have to separate your team. Not sure if a 4-turn is possible.

Also in Lyn Mode, chapter 8 (with the reaver enemies) can definitely be 2-turned with just Florina and Sain; however, Sain needs to land really inaccurate attacks on many of the enemies (including 2 ~30s on Lancereaver Mercs standing on forts + more) and not die (which was a problem even with way above defence on my attempts) and Florina would also have to crit some Cavs. It's riggable but I was unable to achieve it "normally".

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Just made a quick test concerning a hypothesis I had about Marcus's starting position in chapter 13. Dondon started from scratch, skipping Lyn Mode, and had Marcus start in the southeasternmost position; however, I (and also Horace, Aquiiae and Gergeshwan whose recordings I also checked) had Marcus start 3 squares away from that position. I guess the player's choice to do Lyn Mode or not is what affects this (maybe not, but appears to be true based on the videos I checked and also a quick test run I did a few minutes ago), so if a somewhat reliable (proccing a Killing Edge crit is quite a bit more reliable than critting with a regular weapon) 4-turn clear of chapter 13 is possible, then only with Lyn Mode skipped.

Or maybe somebody knows the true criteria based on which Marcus's (and others'?) position is determined? I'm just taking a guess here, but it appears to be well-grounded.

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I picked Wind when I started Lyn Mode, and currently have +3 accuracy/avoid for Sain thanks to it. No idea if affinity and positioning are related (and in which way exactly) as the site makes no mention of it.

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I do think hacking is the one way of learning an obscure piece of information like that. Would be curious to know.

I think that even though I recruited Raven, I might abstain from using him. This choice will completely remove the pressure from grinding Erk and Lucius to go to Kenneth's map (though Erk has grown into a pretty speedy magic hitter), but most importantly, Raven takes up some resources (Hero Crest that could be sold, as well as Goddess Icon(-s) to not get critblicked) just to be a guy with great combat but a foot unit nevertheless. I think Sain has sufficient stats for bosskilling for the lategame chapters (besides skill), and promoting Lowen with Eubans's Knight Crest should make him another good character for one-rounding wyverns with, like, Steel Axes or Killer Lances. I'm trying to think of an instance where the lack of knights' terrain penalties could provide Raven some turn-saving/convenient niche but can't think of one. It's true that he runs around and ORKOs stuff better than all, though.

Also looking at chapter 30, what's the quickest way to clear that - Warp!Pent or Boots!Heath? I suppose the best choice would be to train Lucius/Erk and rig their magic growths really blatantly, as while Pent's base magic is good enough, he won't cap it anytime soon if ever (no Energy Rings in HHM to help him). Lucius has quicker access to the better staves for rank improv, while Erk gets better magic caps (14 warp range at max) if you're able to rig all of his level-ups. Too late for that now probably, and I don't know if such an effort would make a difference.

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wrt chapter 30 warp nino

it'd really depend on your hector. I used Pent and then rigged two killer axe crits but iirc (i didn't record this run) my hector had pretty manly stats

You more or less need a good hector to take him down if you're warping, Pent takes forever to get there and does horrible damage, and if Hector sucks Heath will have to kill him.

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I keep saying Lucius this, Lucius that, but I keep forgetting that I didn't recruit him at all. So it's Erk/Canas, both starting out at E staves upon promotion. So if I ever have a second Warper, it will only be Priscilla.

My Hector as of chapter 20:

(9.65/0)

HP 27 (+0.8)

Str 14 (+2.2)

Skl 9 (+1.4)

Spd 8 (+0.2)

Lck 5 (-0.4)

Def 12 (exact average)

Res 4 (+2)

C Eliwood (probably the only support I'll ever have)

He's pretty good but it's too early to tell what he'll be like by chapter 30. A lot of time to train until then, though.

Kaim has 15 AS, so Hector would need 19 AS to double, which he reaches by 20/14 on average. Without Speedwings, my current Hector would need to grow in speed 8 times on his remaining 11 level-ups to double. Not happening, I think. Hector, if durable enough, will probably attack Kaim once on player phase and then counter on enemy phase. With 64 HP/18 def (throne factored in), Hector needs 29 atk or 18 strength to 6HKO with Killer Axe or 34 attack (19 strength) to 4HKO with Silver Axe if he can proc one crit against Kaim's 0 luck (no S axes to help him out sadly).

If Pent is fielded, then it's for Warp so he won't make it to Kaim himself (and with Kaim's 22 res what would he do there anyway). Heath, I guess, is more susceptible to turn out crappy than Hector is, since he's joining late underlevelled. Is it compulsory to have Heath promoted by chapter 27 (or earlier)? Because if I can wait until chapter 28x (where you have Boots), Heath has plenty of time to reach 20/0 maybe (all those defence maps).

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Ahahaha seriously, what. Just now Marcus was 1 AS away (or 1 str away with a Javelin) from one-turning Oleg's map (chapter 21). 6% chance of critting with a Hand Axe and it proc'd but Marcus wouldn't double. Pretty ridiculous but even if the enemy phase ORKO were to happen, I think I'd prefer taking an extra turn to shop for stuff with those fancy discounts, get my second Elysian Whip (I think it really helps when all fliers at your disposal are promoted) and buy some Pure Waters for Genesis. 2-turning this, and the hardest part is going to be passing the Silver Card around when going from one shop to another. Maybe I should try stealing the Hero Crest somehow? Not sure if that even works in a 2-turn.

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So I'm at the desert and thinking of creative ways to low-turn it with 700 combat experience. Has the idea of rescuing Pent so that he doesn't hog exp been considered/tried out? I have a decent promoted Florina.

Also the view-stat thingy exploit beamcrash discovered for FE6 does indeed work in this one as well, so I could get away with not fielding Legault, though extended vision and stealing the Guiding Ring/White Gem could be useful regardless. I do already have two Guiding Rings, and it looks like Erk/Canas might never really promote (Erk is pretty good but I didn't do the Canas drop in my 3-turn clear of 19x). Since Raven gained only one level, I needn't really field either of them again as long as I keep using Priscilla to get Kenneth's map.

Though 6/0 Raven might be a good character to efficiently (and I mean really efficiently) match the exp requirement for Genesis, but not being able to counter at 2-range sucks a lot.

White Gem wouldn't be an item to miss as I have 10K left after shopping for expensive staves and chest keys, either (I did get the Silver Card when 3-turning 19x).

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Chapter 13x - The Peddler Merlinus in 8 turns.

Aggressive strategy that maximizes combat experience for the party. I nearly rout the map by the end.

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I found during the desert chapter that leaving Pent alone was the only way to deal with the western enemies, but you have a very good Florina, so rescuing him might work here. Heath can get a lot of the required experience on his own, since fliers with combat are awesome, that's probably the best place to dump it (unless you go faster and it wouldn't work anymore, which could end up happening).

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Florina (11/0) is a couple points above her average self but nothing terribly trivialising. She hasn't gotten any bosskills and didn't really have the good stats to do it. She's also quite significantly res-screwed but that's the more easily fixable stat. Her above average level-ups (+the robe) were just good enough for aggressive rescuedrop strategies in like every other chapter since her join time, if not more often, but she needed babying to get her kills and the promotion doesn't exactly change her to goddess status either.

She's still weighed down by Steel Lances so much that she's not doubling any of the weighed down WKs (1-2 points of AS short). Heath has similar AS, attack and durability. Florina has recently got the weapon rank for Silver Lance though... that could work, and would also double the enemies.

I think another strat for the desert would be using Ninis's Grace on an offensively competent yet frail unit (my Erk namely) and rescuedropping them for a meaty enemy phase. I tried training Erk in chapter 22 by placing him on a pillar, but the avo boost wasn't enough to enable him to take on 5 enemies at once (2HKOing him). I ended up switching him out in favour of a mount anyway, as I needed a near full party of mounts to kill Eubans/recruit Rath/open both the chests/shop for staves all in 3 turns. So this could be a good time to train Erk. He's got 18 atk at 12 AS with the Thunder tome.

Rescuing Pent might be pointless unless Heath is the one who does this. Florina's exp gain is very slow once promoted (and I needed her promoted mostly for the extra point of movement in chapter 20) so even if she takes Pent's exp, she won't get much of it (though every point matters).

Trying to play through the map without any promoted characters (no Marcus, Sain, Florina or Isadora) is another idea.

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So during a very thorough test attempt I managed to accumulate 624 exp in the first two turns of the map. Didn't think it possible at all, but it adds up with all those unpromoted units, utility and bosskilling. Clearly the exp requirement is nothing to worry about and instead I should focus on quickly routing the chapter. 4 turns will be my goal for now, not sure if 3 is possible, and I do want Filla's Might (the rest of the items aren't nearly as important).

edit: and a 4-turn it is.

Edited by Espinosa

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I don't even have a guess as to how you got that to work. Did you have to make it all the way to Kishuna's door? I thought some of the enemies that spawned when he left didn't have 2 range, which prevented them from getting sniped through the walls. Sain could probably double, but that's still a lot of enemies to clear out. I'd be very interested to see how you pulled it off.

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For some reason can't repeat my strat beginning with turn 3. Sain dies, Marcus gets slept and Isadora berserked. Could swear I'm doing things the same way I figured them out but apparently not. Re-ordering my moves is supposed to work but then things like 4 inaccurate attacks in a row hitting Sain happens, or Sain eats a Luna crit. Not fun.

Edited by Espinosa

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Okay, managed to re-arrange actions (getting crappy level-ups for Hector and Priscilla) to get my 4-turn; what a hellish chapter to low-turn. By the way, Rath is incredible on this map even unpromoted (I got him to B bows in the desert but only 9/0).

Right now I'm raging at my displayed hit on Lloyd. I wish my Marcus had 21 strength instead of Sain (needed for a 2HKO with Short Spear), because the former has, like, 20 extra hit. And that's with Sain's S lances.

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Chapter 14 in 4 turns.

Guy, Bartre, Dorcas and Rebecca's last map. Lowen takes the bosskill because otherwise Marcus is dying (re-arranging my attacks didn't fix this so I baited Erik with Lowen).

Also, do you think I'll ever mourn not having a third mounted flier (before Vaida)? I 2-turned chapter 25 and the only way I could acquire the whip in the northeastern village would be promoting Heath. He was 10/0 so that was possible, but I felt not making full use of his unpromoted levelling speed would be suicidal longterm. The 2-turn strat was pretty tight.

Edited by Espinosa

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The only time you'll really need 3 fliers is 28x for ferrying Hector, Pent, Ninian, and maybe someone to kill Sonia. I found that base Fiora did just fine there, as it was possible to clear out all the enemies that would have attacked her. A weak Fiora was actually useful as the status staves prioritized her over Heath with a Barrier.

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Fiora's only major contribution so far was participating in the chapter 19x 3-turn rescuedropping, and her bases compared to trained Florina (still unpromoted) made me really worry about her survival there. Everywhere else I either tried to squeeze her in for self-improvement or minor duties like ferrying without terrain penalties. She wasn't fielded in the desert because the wyverns raped her (Florina was entirely avoided due to her high HP with the robe + 5 promotion points for units like Erk and even Heath - funny) and Florina's 8 move was a nice boon too, though not a critical one.

I'm in chapter 26, the first loooong defence map in a while, so it's clearly a chance to level-up units who might want to catch up, build weapon rank and buy killers. Gergeshwan's post made me ponder about my unpromoted characters who were still very useful recently:

Rath - ready to promote, but might enjoy levelling. Before the WK reinforcements arrive in the south he can counter nearly every enemy in that portion of the map besides the Myrm whom he doubles anyway. Rath has been incredible in the 3 chapters immediately following his jointime, and I also want to say that lack of enemy phase counter (though he did counter enemies in my playstyle) isn't bad when you're playing really quickly (like the aforementioned 4-turn clear of Genesis) because you're done with the enemies/the entire chapter before you open Rath up to be torn on EP. Killer Bow and Brave Bow are amazing toys before killer weapons can be bought and used by anyone.

Lowen - blessed in all important stats but Res, Lowen could either promote and work on axe rank (unnecessary because E rank axes allows you to use so many basic good ones) or accumulate more unpromoted levels before his exp gain becomes very slow again. He's got two bosskills on my run, one very recently.

Kent - dude's been ignored due to being far worse than the other Cavs and Isadora (Sain capped his speed in Genesis...), and his 10 AS, 8 with Javelins, is inexcusable. He loses to Isadora everywhere, even in physical durability. Probably going to bench. He's competing for the Earth Seal (which I'm not even sure I'll be a able to steal) with Fiora and she actually flies while he doesn't.

Eliwood - he's at 9/0, blessed but largely ignored because there's no room for a 5 move unit (not even Raven or Guy) with the really quick strats I developed. If I give him another level-up and promote him quickly (maybe have him tank WKs with a Lancereaver or two) then he'll be a better Kent who carries promoted Hector with forced deployment.

Serra/Priscilla - I should probably be spamming those Physics and Barriers with these two but they don't even always get a deployment slot (I need too many offensive units to do what I need to to achieve lowest turns) and when they do, I am hesitant to go all out with those because they're unlikely to go much beyond the starting staff range of 5 with their low bases/growths in magic. If I wanted to, I could promote one or both of them in the duration of just one defence chapter, but I'm not sure if I even want. Pent joins in this map and I think I want him to spam my staves instead and grow some magic, because an extra space of Warp range could make a difference (not to mention the usage of Sleep and Berserk both of which I got somehow).

Heath/Fiora - Heath still needs levels and lots of them (to train not promote). I have one whip for both of them, and I might steal the CH28 Earth Seal to promote the second one (whichever one promotes second) because 4 promoted fliers sounds pretty cool.

Oswin and Erk are also able to promote anytime but screw those two (though Erk would have better staff range than Serra/Priscilla if I promoted him right now and worked on his staves, maybe extra two squares?).

Also, though I said I would visit every Gaiden besides 19xx, I hope nobody will mind if I skip 31x. This isn't a recruit-everyone run (screw Bartre and Karla) and I really don't need any more shopping; in fact, I'm running out of item space both - Merlinus's and reserve characters' (why did i buy so many Iron Axes in the first place?). I'm mainly going to gaidens for challenging/seeing how I low-turn those maps as well.

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Chapter 15 in the usual 8 turns. Useful self-improvement chapter for growth units (and Marcus too I guess). I end up routing the whole map.

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Are we even positive that Kenneth's version of map 27 saves turns compared to Jerme's? I'm looking at some efficiency runs that go to Jerme's variant right now, and they seem to low-turn it pretty quickly. It's a rout meaning Hector needn't be going in the direction of the throne at all, and the snow disappears before you get to blink.

Probably too late for me now knowing how many levels I got for Erk in the desert, or maybe not - I can still place Raven on a fort with a Lancereaver in chapter 26 and rack up the exp necessary for Jerme's variant (probably neglecting Priscilla and Serra completely).

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