Experimental tier list

[Espinosa]

Shinon is likely to get the chapter 3 bosskill as well as assisting with 2-turning chapter 4. Simple maps, yet those contributions (plus chapter 7 and the defence map before that) are still way more than other Low tier dwellers like Devdan can mention to their credit.

[Chiki]

What would you guys suggest to do with the bottom 2 tiers?

[Hawkeye]

I'd say Nasir down to bottom somewhere, due to his terrible availability and the fact that he costs turns. Shinon up to top of low maybe, because I think he and Tauroneo are the only two in low/bottom that can actually be of use.

[Ashen Tempest]

This tier list is fairly accurate. I would say Mist should be on Goddess tier if not for her meddling low HP growths. Nonetheless, she capped almost everything before hitting 20/20 when I used her, so she is definitely good. As for this whole Kieran vs. Mordecai debate going on, Smite and Rescue have their respective situations where they're useful or not so useful compared to the other. But they're both definitely versatile. I wouldn't know for sure though, since I didn't use Kieran.

[Chiki]

This tier list is fairly accurate. I would say Mist should be on Goddess tier if not for her meddling low HP growths. Nonetheless, she capped almost everything before hitting 20/20 when I used her, so she is definitely good. As for this whole Kieran vs. Mordecai debate going on, Smite and Rescue have their respective situations where they're useful or not so useful compared to the other. But they're both definitely versatile. I wouldn't know for sure though, since I didn't use Kieran.

I've discovered that Mist's staff usage isn't really that essential. Rescue is only necessary to reliably cut turns in Chapters 26 and 27, and Elincia is in both.

I might bump up Elincia a little and drop Mist. She's less of an exp drain than Mist, and has fantastic magic growth.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Olwen

[Ashen Tempest]

Actually, Mist is ridiculously good with the Sonic Sword. Healing is actually pretty essential no matter how you look at it. Especially if you're not particularly fond of characters dying. Obsessing over all the little details is one of the reasons I've never been so good at LTC playthroughs.

[Hawkeye]

I also thought Mist was a bit high. I think below the paladins might be a better spot, and I could even picture her going all the way down to upper-mid. Elincia might deserve to rise a few spots but I'm not entirely sure. Definitely not too far above where she is now.

[Chiki]

Actually, Mist is ridiculously good with the Sonic Sword. Healing is actually pretty essential no matter how you look at it. Especially if you're not particularly fond of characters dying. Obsessing over all the little details is one of the reasons I've never been so good at LTC playthroughs.

Healing is useful, but useful enough to put her above the likes of Kieran?

Mist isn't really good with the Sonic Sword, especially considering that it only has a few uses. Hammerne is too valuable with siege tomes and so on to guarantee one use of it going to Mist.

[Ashen Tempest]

Fair enough, I guess. I always looked at it from a perspective that idealizes that healers are what keeps an army alive. But an army isn't exactly an army if it lacks a focus on offense. Which is why I always regard them as important.

[Chiki]

Fair enough, I guess. I always looked at it from a perspective that idealizes that healers are what keeps an army alive. But an army isn't exactly an army if it lacks a focus on offense. Which is why I always regard them as important.

Supports can keep armies alive too. An Oscar A support with Kieran makes both of them pretty much invulnerable.

Most units in the game have decent avoid and decent defenses so they don't need to focus on survival all that much.

If this were maniac mode I could see Mist going up, but hard mode doesn't warrant that kind of importance since, well, it's easy.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Olwen

[Ashen Tempest]

I've always underestimated the value of supports until I started Radiant Dawn. Now I simply hate myself for never having taken advantage of it and just doing it for seeing character development. The only support combo I ever recall taking advantage of was Ilyana and Mordecai in Path of Radiance.

[Snowy_One]

It always irked me how much people worship Mist as well as downplay supports. SS Mist requires a lot of work and resources to become even feasible. She needs either scrolls or training to even hold the SS, a 20-use sword, and a hammerine (unless used sparingly or the sword breaks) to make it even viable. And with all that she's still not really that 'stunning'. She's a frailer paladin that got jury-rigged to use a blade and just so happens to be able to use a staff. She's still not that strong even with the blade and, even if she was, unless you use the Hammerine on it, it's only around for 20 uses.

But getting up to a potential +5 attack and/or defense for the last 1/2 or 1/3rd of the game along with a lesser bonus throughout? Nope. TOTALLY overrated.

If all supports gave was hit and maybe 1 or 2 attack, I could understand them being classified as overrated, but they give SO much more than that.

[Espinosa]

I don't think the tier list seriously assumes Mist is deployed as a combat unit though, does it? As likely as she may be to have Titania and Jill both in range giving her +5 defence after chapter 17, her HP/defence are still a bit too low and leave her close to being 3HKO'd by some of the common enemy types in the second half of the game. Sonic Sword also doesn't give her WTA against the prominent Fighters and Warriors, so that's risk of death increased. Also, re: supports, since Jill is a flier, she is likely to be too far away from Mist to provide her support in outdoor maps. If in play, Boyd could be a less useful yet more available partner (after Titania).

But sure, why not, an Arms Scroll and a single use of the Hammerne aren't that contested in this game. I think Mist's accuracy issues with non-forged weapons should also be mentioned.

[Snowy_One]

Mist is in the high tier above Kieran. I somehow suspect that, yes, she is being deployed seriously in combat.

[Chiki]

Of course she isn't. Staff utility is handy. I might lower her depending on what you guys think.

[Narga_Rocks]

Mist is in the high tier above Kieran. I somehow suspect that, yes, she is being deployed seriously in combat.

You are kidding, aren't you? How do you expect to get Mist that much experience when he's finishing chapters in 3 turns and spending all his bexp on Mia (to shove a unit in one chapter) and Marcia (to clear things) and Oscar and Kieran to promote early enough to do some other random thing? When people say to practice critical thinking skills, they did not mean to practice being critical. They meant to think through the logic of what could happen and come to appropriate conclusions.

Plus I think he already talked about how it's all about her rescue staff use or something. Can you even hammerne staves in this game? I have no idea. If not it's only 3 uses of rescue. But all she needs is level 10 and a master seal and staff exp to use Rescue. She is not fighting much like that.

[Espinosa]

Rescue needs staff range to be effective which needs high magic which needs levelling up.

I don't think the tier list assumes Mia is getting promoted for chapter 9 Shoves; if this were the assumptions, Jill and others would be in the Do Not Exist tier.

Have you considered 2-turning chapter 24 with max magic Mist and dodgy Reyson?

[Narga_Rocks]

Rescue needs staff range to be effective which needs high magic which needs levelling up.

I don't think the tier list assumes Mia is getting promoted for chapter 9 Shoves; if this were the assumptions, Jill and others would be in the Do Not Exist tier.

Have you considered 2-turning chapter 24 with max magic Mist and dodgy Reyson?

No, if Olwen were consistent it would mean that Jill and others would be in the do not exist tier. You've seen the pages of arguments in the fe9 tier list about Mia > Zihark because of one shove. Ask Olwen what it is that puts Mia > Zihark?

Anyway, Yes Rescue is better with bigger range, but if Mist is at a high enough level to have a great range then she'd also be a combatant and Olwen explicitly said she isn't (granted that's after Snowy decided Mist is clearly a combatant) so I'm assuming that even 5 range can do something at least.

Last bit, are you talking to me or Olwen? If me, obviously I've never considered 2-turning anything. I'm happy with my 6 to 10 turn chapters, thanks. More fun for me. But can you 2 turn chapter 24 that way instead of another way without sacrificing turns in other chapters? If so, cool.

Edited April 20, 2013 by Narga_Rocks

[Espinosa]

No, if Olwen were consistent it would mean that Jill and others would be in the do not exist tier. You've seen the pages of arguments in the fe9 tier list about Mia > Zihark because of one shove. Ask Olwen what it is that puts Mia > Zihark?

Anyway, Yes Rescue is better with bigger range, but if Mist is at a high enough level to have a great range then she'd also be a combatant and Olwen explicitly said she isn't (granted that's after Snowy decided Mist is clearly a combatant) so I'm assuming that even 5 range can do something at least.

Last bit, are you talking to me or Olwen? If me, obviously I've never considered 2-turning anything. I'm happy with my 6 to 10 turn chapters, thanks. More fun for me. But can you 2 turn chapter 24 that way instead of another way without sacrificing turns in other chapters? If so, cool.

I believe this is a tier list like any other, one that stresses LTC over efficiency but leaves room for variation (e.g. LTC with everyone recruited), or LTC with a not entirely optimal team. What differentiates it from the rest is the grading system by complexity between chapters, aiming to lower the Jeigan's position (basically do what Cynthia's tierlist did not - put Titania below Marcia in the same tier). I haven't seen Olwen being very pedantic about turns yet, though.

Making Mist a combatant is an investment in itself as a 20/1 Mist has 22 atk, 17 AS with a max Mt Steel Sword forge. This isn't entirely bad, e.g. one-rounding weighed down seige Sages in chapter 18, but only dealing 75% damage to Archers in the same chapter, let alone bulkier enemy types like Warriors, Cavs or Halbs.

27 atk with Tanith's Sonic Sword targeting res is far better in comparison, 2HKOing Fighters and AKs in chapter 21 for example. However, SS is B swords, which means 2 Arms Scrolls or 1 AS with 20 rounds of combat with a Steel Sword (forge probably). If Mist does take both of the AS available in the game, that might imply: 1) no Silver Axe forges for Oscar, 2) no better bows for Boyd, 3) no silver weaponry for Haar, 4) no Brave Bow for Geoffrey, 5) no siege tomes for Soren/Ilyana/Tormod, if in play, 6) slower start for Nephenee, amongst others.

Mist will also be slightly lagging behind with 8 move, equal to unpromoted Cavs. At 20/10 in chapter 28, Mist with Runesword has 37 atk, 15 AS, and with 33 HP/9 def, is 2HKO'd by Tigers, higher-levelled cats, SM and the Silver Lance Halb. Her healing through Runesword might help her survival little considering plenty of the enemies, including some of the dragons who are both physically and magically durable, double her. She also has only 111 hit, or 65 displayed against the cats in the same map, 71 against Warriors without WTA (because Runesword doesn't count as a sword in the calculations).

A Titania, B Boyd gives her +12.5 extra hit, assuming both are in range, but the hit rates are still rather shaky. In comparison, 20/15 Kieran is 5HKO'd by the Tigers on the same map, and with A Oscar in range faces only around 45-50% hit from them, and the Laguz are some of the most accurate enemies in that chapter (or in the game).

If we grade the combat unit in relation to one another, it would seem Mist's combat capabilities are meek at best, even given a wealthy investment.

Also, the chapter 24 comment was directed at Olwen, sorry. I believe he 3-turned the map, whereas a less reliable 2-turn strat with full Rescue range Mist exists and could be attempted. Maybe if Mia isn't given the early BEXP dump, this amount can enable Mist to 2-turn the map and contribute positively to our turn count?

[Hawkeye]

You guys jumped way too quickly at Snowy's comment. I'm pretty sure nobody would ever use Mist as a combat unit in efficient play.

Mist is in the high tier above Kieran. I somehow suspect that, yes, she is being deployed seriously in combat.

The fact that she is ranked above a combat unit certainly doesn't make her one herself. How that makes any sense to you is beyond me.

[Chiki]

It is the potential that puts Mia above Zihark. My playthrough is not assumed. This tier list is all about potential.

My Mist had capped magic by 24 despite giving exp to Mia. 24 is impossible to 2 turn without Boots Mist. Though it's been a while since I looked at this map. I think I just wasn't allowed enough Shoves for this map.

Edited April 20, 2013 by Olwen

[Espinosa]

We should talk of averages rather than potential though, don't you think? For example, Ike has the potential to have 20 magic promoted for 1~2 range on enemy phase, though only a 20% growth in the stat. Similarly, a 17/2 Mist caps magic if you reset until she procs mag every level-up (easy in Random Mode at the base), but on Fixed gets there at 20/18 on average, slightly earlier with bands.

[Chiki]

We should talk of averages rather than potential though, don't you think? For example, Ike has the potential to have 20 magic promoted for 1~2 range on enemy phase, though only a 20% growth in the stat. Similarly, a 17/2 Mist caps magic if you reset until she procs mag every level-up (easy in Random Mode at the base), but on Fixed gets there at 20/18 on average, slightly earlier with bands.

Of course we should. But Mia doesn't need averages to shove Ike.

And I don't disagree that we should talk about Mist's averages rather than my RNG abuse. I was just arguing that I can't 2 turn 24 even with capped magic Mist--she needs the Boots for that. Even if I was able to, I don't fancy the chances of Reyson dying... which might require even more bexp for his sake, and I definitely don't have that much bexp to spare.

[Narga_Rocks]

It is the potential that puts Mia above Zihark. My playthrough is not assumed. This tier list is all about potential.

My Mist had capped magic by 24 despite giving exp to Mia. 24 is impossible to 2 turn without Boots Mist. Though it's been a while since I looked at this map. I think I just wasn't allowed enough Shoves for this map.

Aren't you assuming your turncount, if not your playthrough? Unless you can find another way (aside from promoted Boyd/Mia) to achieve that turncount in chapter 9, isn't it that shove?

Out of curiosity, I'd like to ask if your Mia does anything at all interesting with being 20/1 starting in chapter 9. Like, picks up a laguz sword and kills a couple ravens that Marcia can't go to since she's too busy killing the boss or something. Like, does Mia do anything else or are you seriously dumping exp into Mia for one shove?

Back to Mist, she starts with 90 base Magic, so actually more like 20/17 without bands.

Anyway, what level is your Mist and for a non-rngabuse playthrough what's her stats? If she's 20/17, she actually can double as a combat unit, at least a little bit, but certainly even then, Snowy, there's no way she'd get above Kieran on her combat alone. Even with an infinite use D rank Sonic Sword she wouldn't. 8 move and less durability.

[Chiki]

All I'm assuming is the lowest possible turn counts with a respectable amount of reliability (around 60%+). Tier lists need a good balance in order to be viable at all.

My playthrough had a bunch of 5% reliability clears. It and its turn counts are not assumed.

Mia was in the top 5, so it goes without saying that she did a crapload for me.

I don't know what level Mist would be, but I think chapter 20-21 or so is a good place for her to promote.