Bearclaw (Stahl) vs. JSND (Sully)

[Da Bear]

So then Stahl vs. Sully. Arguably the two best non-MU units in the game. Naturally this debate will be happening according to the tier lists rules. I could post them but they should be well known by now so there isn't much reason. They both boast a massive amount of good qualities and few weaknesses. Stahl naturally has more strength and defense while Sully has more speed. This means the debate will basically come down to which stats are better... Seeing as how they're practically identical otherwise.

First off we should naturally figure out how they do early-game as it's the easiest to predict and hardest part. Sully has one chapter on Stahl. That chapter is fairly unimportant and extremely quick but it's still a chance for Sully to contribute when Stahl can't and get EXP that Stahl can't. So let's look at Chapter 1.

This chapter is pretty easy thanks to you probably not using more than 2 pairs and your team being able to just stand on forts and destroy the map in 3-5 turns. Sully can double the Fighters with Chrom at base but so can Frederick and Avatar. Avatar and Frederick both take more and do more damage at this point but she can still take Chrom and hang out on the fort. I think a level in this map should be more than fair depending on how you play.

So we go into Chapter 2 with them looking something like this... (I procced Sully in her >50% growths)

UNIT   CLASS LV.XP HP ST MG SK SP LK DF RS WEAPON RANK      
SULLY CAV 3.00 21 8 1 9 9 7 7 2 D LANCES
STAHL CAV 2.00 22 8 0 7 6 5 8 1 D SWORDS  

So the only really pronounced lead is Sully's +3 speed. That's not that big though because if Sully wants to double then she has to take Chrom which leaves her durability kind of lacking, for example Fighters (17 attack) will be doing about 10 damage, Soldiers (15 attack) will be doing roughly 8, and Mercenaries (14 attack) do about 7. That means that every enemy on the map 3HKOes her when she's doubling while Stahl manages to not be 3HKOed by Mercs but that's before pair up. So if you want her to have a good EP she isn't going to be doubling. Making her speed lead irrelevant. Sully's best options are Vaike and Frederick... same as Stahl. They both die at about the same rates depending on which character they take. I'll say they can each take 2 levels here without too much pain. That's a good amount and reflects their contributions (basically best non-Frederick units). They both basically 2-3HKO.

So in Chapter 3 Stahl has, +2 hp (95% growth... I'm just giving too him) +1 strength, skill, speed, luck, defense. Sully has, +1 hp, strength, skill, speed, luck, defense.

The Chapter is interesting. Sully can take the javelin from Kellam for 1-2 range but it makes her attack rather bad (12+ attack depending on who she pairs with and enemies have 3-4 defense (if not a Knight) and 9 defense (if a Knight)) So she does 8-9 damage a hit with the javelin per hit, this can rise to 12-13 with Vaike or Frederick not a KO, if she takes Chrom to double she needs dual-attacks to 1-round. On top of this that javelin has 25 uses for 3-4 chapters so she can't really overuse it for constant counters. This map is great for working Stahl's lance rank so he'll take the Bronze Lance while Sully takes the Iron Lance. Again they do just about the same 2HKOing adn getting 3-6HKOed (depending on Vaike or Frederick). They both get a level and Stahl probably gets to D lances.

That basically sums them up through P1 and C4, Sully can double with Chrom but her durability isn't good enough for this in most circumstances for her to keep up with Stahl while Stahl's durability and attack begin to get better than Sully's.

Chapter 5~ is when Sully typically starts to reliably double most enemies with Vaike or Frederick. But at this time Stahl's durability becomes pretty concrete (taking 1-3 damage from all) and Stahl can actually double several enemies with Lon'qu. The comparison for the next couple of chapters basically relies on whether Sully is taking Frederick (her win), Vaike (pretty even but with Stahl taking a slight edge imo) or Chrom (easily Stahl). The problem with Sully taking Fred though is she takes him from Sumia, who really likes those boosts. She can use Frederick almost as well though so the cost isn't that large.

As time goes on Stahl gets Cordelia to make him better against Mages (though he's still pretty bad) and he's still even (Frederick) to better (other). To make him a bit better for mid-game.

I'd say Late-game is fairly even or in Stahl's favor because Sully can go Wyvern for an overall improvement (although her axe rank starts bad, nothing Discipline can't fix). While his superior defense and strength growths allow Stahl to stay even or ahead on strength and defense while not being weak to bows, which are pretty numerous in those chapters.

They're both great but Hungry Guy in Green > Red-Haired Transgender story.

I can go into more detail soon but I want to see what you have to say.

[shadykid]

don't choke this away JSND

edit: woah there buddy, what's this about a transgender story you're talking about

Edited May 26, 2013 by shadykid

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Im trying but this is my first

Stilll writing btw

[Shinori]

Oh. Fuck. I wanted to do this but in sully's position.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Overslept. Sorry for taking my time

Sully the Bully vs Stackey Mouse. Everybody knows that Red Bull is > Mouse, so I don;t see why this is even a question. Personality wise, Stahl is a generic nice guy that forgettability rivals even Lowen

while Sully is some sort of Young Titania

"So the only really pronounced lead is Sully's +3 speed. That's not that big though because if Sully wants to double then she has to take Chrom which leaves her durability kind of lacking"

Sully has better options, for example assuming Sully takes Virion or Frederick, Sully can build up C Rank in this chapter. Chrom allows Sully to double sure, but at 11 ATK, thats not bringing it into ORKO-ing range, bar DS procs. Outside that, against the swordies on a forest, Sully is like 7 – 10RKOed with Vaike as a fodder, and gets 4 - 5 damage from 14ATK loldiers and that’s going even lower if you take Frederick.

Competition wise, Chrom goes with MU for efficiency reason, while Frederick goes with Sumia since they are made for each other.

That being said, for the sake of convenience, lets take Vaike for Sully, and then Kellam > Cordelia for Stahl. Personally I would like to argue Sully x Stahl but it goes against the prospect of this discussion in the first place

That being said, for chapter 2, Sully and Stahl has simmilar durability, and pretty much a WRANK advantage for Sully, which Stahl can catches up for Swords.

Chapter 3 arguments

“The Chapter is interesting. Sully can take the javelin from Kellam for 1-2 range but it makes her attack rather bad (12+ attack depending on who she pairs with and enemies have 3-4 defense (if not a Knight) and 9 defense (if a Knight)) So she does 8-9 damage a hit with the javelin per hit, this can rise to 12-13 with Vaike or Frederick not a KO, if she takes Chrom to double she needs dual-attacks to 1-round. On top of this that javelin has 25 uses for 3-4 chapters so she can't really overuse it for constant counters. This map is great for working Stahl's lance rank so he'll take the Bronze Lance while Sully takes the Iron Lance. Again they do just about the same 2HKOing adn getting 3-6HKOed (depending on Vaike or Frederick). They both get a level and Stahl probably gets to D lances.”

The only ranged enemies in this map is like, the 2 starting Archers, both having 15 ATK and 8 SPD, so Javelin is uneeded. Again, Sully will not be able to ORKO outside of Dual Strike procs at C Rank, which Stahl lacks.

“That basically sums them up through P1 and C4, Sully can double with Chrom but her durability isn't good enough for this in most circumstances for her to keep up with Stahl while Stahl's durability and attack begin to get better than Sully's.”

Not true, not to mention Chrom Pair Up is questionable.

For example, the strongest enemies in Paralogue 1 is Roddick at 26 ATK and 19 ATK Barbarian. The rest hans around 14 – 15 ATK, 13 ATK thief at the lowest

At paralogue 1, say Sully gets level 5, while Stahl gets level 4, thanks to 2 Chapters before and 1 chapter advantage from Sully.

Sully averages at 8.35

Stahl averages at 9.60

With Vaike C, Sully gets 11 DEF, while Stahl gets 15 DEF with Kellam C

Assuming tonics Sully is 3HKOed by 19 ATK Barbarian, who she 2RKOes with Iron Lance at 91% rate, and she gets like 4-6RKOes by the rest. Archers 6RKOES her. However, considering the (lack of) enemy density in paralogue 1, this is not something that Sully can’t cover with Vulneraries.

For Chapter 4, Sully has Killer Lance giving her an offensive advantages.

Lets look at their speed

Stahl at 6 and Sully at 7

Stahl averages at 25 HP, 7.00 SPD, 10.40 DEF

Sully averages at 24.25 HP, 10.00 SPD, 9.25 DEF

At this point of the game, ATK is not even worth talking about, since both 2RKOes just fine alhough in that case C Rank Lance Killer Lance Sully > Stahl. Both have C with Vaike(Sully) and Kellam(Stahl), which means Sully has 12 DEF, 14 Tonic. Stahl still has the humongous 16 DEF.

Both have some problem against Mages for obvious reason, which 3HKOes them, The stairs provide some evasion chance and that’s it.

Against 20 ATK Knight, of which there are 2 in the map, Sully is 4HKOed, and is “massive number”HKOed by 16 ATK Handaxe thrower and Iron Axe user only 6HKOes here, which is 2 on the map, place really far from each other. Not even a problem

At 24 ATK, Marth 3RKOes Stahl and Sully because of 12 Speed, saving Sully from 2RKO. Stahl can turn it into 4HKO with Tonics though. Sully has WTA and Crit Chance against Marth with Killer Lance, while Stahl is stuck at 3RKO.

Sully definitely has a lead in this chapter, especially worse when you consider that this chapter has a limited unit slots.

“Chapter 5~ is when Sully typically starts to reliably double most enemies with Vaike or Frederick. But at this time Stahl's durability becomes pretty concrete (taking 1-3 damage from all) and Stahl can actually double several enemies with Lon'qu. The comparison for the next couple of chapters basically relies on whether Sully is taking Frederick (her win), Vaike (pretty even but with Stahl taking a slight edge imo) or Chrom (easily Stahl). The problem with Sully taking Fred though is she takes him from Sumia, who really likes those boosts. She can use Frederick almost as well though so the cost isn't that large.”

As time goes on Stahl gets Cordelia to make him better against Mages (though he's still pretty bad) and he's still even (Frederick) to better (other). To make him a bit better for mid-game.”

Pairing up with Lon’Qu means Stahl messes up his support Rank. Lon’Qu gives Stahl 5 SPD. Again, at 7/8, Sully averages 10.65, Stahl 7.50. 12 – 13 speed only goes so far, and did not help you on ORKO-ing the Wyverns without Killing Edge itself, while Sully essentially has dominance over killing Lance that nobody can use.

Going on to Twins Turf, a Tonics Kellam Stahl takes little damage from everything other than Mages and 23 ATK Steel Axe Barbarian who is like 6 – 8RKOes. If Sully manage to double stuff here, she ORKOes, which is, surprisingly pretty easy considering that the enemies has like 7 Speed at worst.

For Chapter 6, theres the 9 speed Cavs. Say, either Sully and Stahl sits at level 10

Sully

10.00

HP: 26.8(27)

STR: 11.40

SKL: 12.80(13)

SPD: 12.80(13)

DEF: 10

So, Sully Doubled stuff here except 9 SPD Cavaliers, and Validar

Stahl

10.00

HP: 29.6(30)

STR: 13.2

SKL: 11.40

SPD:10

DEF: 12.80(13)

Taking Lon’Qu, 19 ATK Stahl Doubled and ORKOes Fighter. Its kinda worth the effort since Cordelia is going to arrive soon, giving Kellam the Bench.

Note that Sully likely has more Evasion before pair up, which means she has less Magical problem than Stahl, and Vaike has Rank over Lon'Qu + Stahl.

27/13 is 4-5RKOed by Iron Axe Fighters, which is just about the only threatening enemies in this map.

Meanwhile, Stahl who takes Lon’Qu carried same level of durability, although he can get some chance at ORKOing Validar with Killing Edge.

They are about tied here.

Now, lets look at Cordelia’s joining chapter. Sully and Stahl can resonably gets A Rank. However, Stahl is going to change his partner in this chapter, which means his support Rank is reset pretty damn soon.

For this chapter, Cordelia is not showing up before the map is nearly finished, or outright finished, so they are not getting a C Rank before the next chapter.

Sully

11.00

HP: 27.65(85) rounded up 28

STR: 11.95(55) Rounded Up - 12

SKL: 13.40(60)

SPD: 13.40(60)

LCK: 11.40(60)

DEF: 11.05(45)

RES: 4.25(25)

Stahl

11.00

HP: 30.55(95) ronded up 31

STR: 13.85(65) rounded up 14

SKL: 11.95(55) rounded up 12

SPD: 10.50(50) rounded up 11

LCK: 9.50(50) rounded up 10

DEF: 13.80(60) rounded up 14

RES: 2.25(15)

Sully + Vaike has

28 HP, 15 DEF and 26 ATK with Iron Lance

Sitting at 46 Evasion

13 AS is enough to Double the 8 SPD enemies

Stahl + Kellam has

31 HP, 21 DEF and 26 ATK with Iron Swords

Sitting at 41 Evasion on Average, taking into acount Outdoor and Support Bonus

11 AS does not double anything, and again, not using Kellam means losing on durability

And then the next chapter come, and incoming the Flier Bias.

Paralogue 3: Forest and Mountains and whatnot

8: Desert

9: Desert

10: Mountain ranges

11. Okay, this one has none

Stahl is hit by this HARD, while Sully can take a Second Seal and Reclass into Wyvern Rider should she want to.

At the time, Panne is not getting level 10. Sully’s other competition for Second Seals are like Vaike and maybe Chrom. Sully can take the pre chapter 8 Renown Second Seal and Reclass into Wyvern Rider. Lets look at the stats now

Sully

Wyvern Rider

1.00

HP: 29

STR: 13

SKL: 14

SPD: 12

LCK: 11

DEF: 12

RES: 4

Sully loses the ability to Double stuff that is around that area, and loses weapon Rank in the process, however Discipline + Vaike S Rank Pair Up solves that. Sully can regains her speed in a few moment since Wyvern Rider Sully gains a level for like every 2 Kills. Stahl, however is stuck by having the grounded tags, and is still building up support rank from Cordelia, which means less DS procs to play with.

As sad as this sounds the boss with Nosferatu has 4 SPD. Failwakening

Its a good thing that the first Arms Scroll is unlocked after chapter 10, which means Sully can't simply get an Arms Scroll and get out of jail free.

Basically, starting from this point onwards, the game hated Stahl who does not fly and take a backseat for Cordelia who…. Well flies, while Sully started to own stuff left and right, owns even more stuff, gets level 10 for even more evasion, and is capable of wielding Axes for Hammer Acess comes the Valm Arc. Speaking of Valm Arc, Wyvern Lord Sully will regain her usage of B Lance allowing access to Beastkiller.

A good example of usefullness of Fliers in chapter 11 onwards is:

13: Fly to the boss in 2 turn. No Sniper on the route

14: Going against the PK, or flying to the ships

15: Flying off the ledges, reaching Say'Ri's swarm of enemies in one turn

16: Branching? Lol I Fly. 2 Sniper which is easy to handle and a Counter Warrior and a Bow Warrior are like the only enemies that is worth a damn in this chapter

17: This one is rather bad for Fliers because of Snipers on the starting position x2.

To keep it short, Stahl’s durability is largely overkill, while Sully’s speed allowed her to Double earlier, giving higher chance of Procing DS earlier because she also build support ranks earlier, Stahl is stuck on the ground or mountless, while Sully flies with a Wyvern Reclass, and grows even faster, dodge stuff left and right and taking joke damage pretty much always, and thats before factoring in Stahl's lack of Alvailability lead on both himself and Cordelia also means Sully not only get an experience lead, she also get a support rank leads over Stahl who gets his S Rank at like chapter 12.

Sorry, the Sunbeam Puppy Flying Red Bull > Stahlckey Mouse Mc Panther Frederick Wannabe

+1 win points because Sully is hotter than everyone in the cast, solidifying her position as the best female in the game and has a hot daughter with ZOMG4CLASS. Classy at its best.

[Da Bear]

Sorry I've just lost any will to do this recently. I'm going to just surrender.