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Would it be bad if a later FE has lower growths? And tweaked caps?

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As someone who plays primarily for challenge and gameplay and finds the novelty factor of eight +stats wears off quickly when it's so common, I prefer lower growths. For those who do say getting 4-5 stats at a time is a lot more satisfying, I ask, which is more satisfying: 5 stats in a 2-3 stat average game, or 7 stats in a 4-5 average game?

*You can take this to an extreme, if you want, and get something that feels quite different just because the numbers are of a different magnitude. Imagine Chrom joins with 200 HP, about 65 STR, weilding Falchion with 50 mt and similar other stats, and the enemies are there with 250 HP, 80 STR and their 70 might Iron Axes. You can probably tell, it would play out more or less the same (with some tweaking to levelups, whatever) but with such different numbers, it doesn't quite seem like Fire Emblem any more.

everyone would prefer the latter, because nobody actually gives a shit about growths once the level up screen shows up (especially seeing as how people go OMG DONNEL GOT ANOTHER PERFECT LEVEL UP all the time)

and "doesn't seem like Fire Emblem" is rather arbitrary also your example makes generics stronger than Chrom

Edited by shadykid

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The generics are stronger than Chrom, on Lunatic :P.

Your argument is entirely uncompelling, because people know what to expect. If the typical level up is four stats, then pretty quickly you realise that, and getting lots of levels with 4 stats isn't very impressive. If the typical level up is two stats, and you get lots of level ups with two stats, it's equally unimpressive. But if you're used to getting two stat levels, and you get four stats, it's awesome, just let getting 8 stats in a four stat average game. I don't think I've ever seen people comment on getting perfect levelups in FEA for example, but it's kind of a big deal in the older games.

Yes, not seeming like FE is rather arbitrary. What would you prefer I say?

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Your argument is entirely uncompelling, because people know what to expect. If the typical level up is four stats, then pretty quickly you realise that, and getting lots of levels with 4 stats isn't very impressive. If the typical level up is two stats, and you get lots of level ups with two stats, it's equally unimpressive. But if you're used to getting two stat levels, and you get four stats, it's awesome, just let getting 8 stats in a four stat average game. I don't think I've ever seen people comment on getting perfect levelups in FEA for example, but it's kind of a big deal in the older games.

go over to the FE13 LP on Something Awful (heck, even the FE12 one too while you're at it, pretty sure Catria hit everything except magic at least once)

read it and try telling me people don't comment on Donnel's growths with Aptitude all the damn time

Edited by shadykid

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Eh, I'd rather not. But even so, that's because Aptitude and Donnel's above average growths together, combine to make his growth rates around 50% better than most other characters. If there was something similar in say FE8 (say, Ross had +10-15% to all growths), you'd have exactly the same thing there.

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Eh, I'd rather not. But even so, that's because Aptitude and Donnel's above average growths together, combine to make his growth rates around 50% better than most other characters. If there was something similar in say FE8 (say, Ross had +10-15% to all growths), you'd have exactly the same thing there.

ok fine, going the other way

look at the FE5/6 Let's Play, even if a character gets two of (Strength or Magic)/Speed/Defense, it's still "goddammit" as opposed to "eh pretty good"

why?

because casuals like seeing big level ups

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Hold on. Your first statement was that *Everyone* would prefer big growths. Now you're saying *causals* like big growths. Which is it?

As for me, in just about every LP I've seen (FE7-9 and FE4 mostly) people are generally very happy with a level of those two stats. If people are new to the game and expect 7 stat levels, they're obviously going to be disappointed, just like if someone say had been playing games where you get 2-3 points per stat every level, and then saw a level of five +1's, they might feel it wasn't very good.

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come on folks, learn your basic statistics

growths farther away from 50% = less variance = smaller likelihood to get screwed.

Personally when I said Dorcas's 20% and Guy's 30% made them feel more screwed was because by default their growths in those specific stats were bad/mediocre and that them stats falling across the lower bounds about the average has a lot more impact even if they vary less.

A character say Erk who has a 50% growth may be more likely to fall 2 points(or more or less depending on the level gained) below their averages than Dorcas, but their higher growth tends to make up for that(with some exceptions) while at the same time has an equal chance to fall 2 points above and can be more easily manipulated by soft resetting until a chapter run where they do gain that stat.

If Dorcas gaining the same amount of levels falls behind by 1 point of speed in comparison to Erk falling behind by 2, I'd still say Dorcas was probably more negatively impacted by it.

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Hold on. Your first statement was that *Everyone* would prefer big growths. Now you're saying *causals* like big growths. Which is it?

As for me, in just about every LP I've seen (FE7-9 and FE4 mostly) people are generally very happy with a level of those two stats. If people are new to the game and expect 7 stat levels, they're obviously going to be disappointed, just like if someone say had been playing games where you get 2-3 points per stat every level, and then saw a level of five +1's, they might feel it wasn't very good.

casuals can be disappointed in missing a chance to cap skill on a character's last level up even when said level up contains str/spd/def and already has 28 skill

you know, because OMG CAPPED STATS (that are high, nobody gives two shits about capping stats in FE1/3/5)

come on folks, learn your basic statistics

growths farther away from 50% = less variance = smaller likelihood to get screwed.

I'll assume they meant "screwed" as in "this unit ends up with a pathetic amount of [insert stat here]"

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Sometimes being screwed is dependent on the stat to begin with. My FE8 no promotion/train everyone run ended up with a 7 speed Garcia. That was far from the least likely stat screwage I had (it's a 2.8% chance) and in terms of absolute numbers, it was only 3.2 points below average. But in terms of damage to the unit, it was one of the largest, and was definitely memorable as a result.

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have growths be lower on average, give 5% increased chance (maybe more) to a growth every time a stat fails to level up. upon level up, reset the growth back to its default value. this will help offset characters getting stat screwed, and also actually make you not want to immediatly reset if you get a bad/empty level up.

and keep resistance low. I mean, really low. non magic units shouldn't really be having more than 10 or 15% chance to get resistance on average, seeing units with like 30% or better res growth when you're not a magic user or pegasus knight is just stupid.

Edited by Irysa

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and keep resistance low. I mean, really low. non magic units shouldn't really be having more than 10 or 15% chance to get resistance on average, seeing units with like 30% or better res growth when you're not a magic user or pegasus knight is just stupid.

Low RES = super powered mages, usually. ESPECIALLY if nosferatu is around.

As for growths, I almost want them higher, or make bases less pronounced. In many FEs, units with good bases just tended to outperform growth units just because A) they need less work to function, B) work right away, and C) can't really be screwed. This is particularly bad in FEs where growths are quite low -- i.e., the earlier ones.

So no, growths should be a la FE10, for obvious reasons. Definitely not lower.

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Low RES = super powered mages, usually. ESPECIALLY if nosferatu is around.

Low res growths on your characters =/= low res for all enemies. Besides, enemy magic users should really actually matter more, especially with long range Berserk or Sleep staves.

The vast majority of the time they're not really much more of a threat than other units, despite them being somewhat rare. It would also help to make Barrier staves, or Pure Waters and their equivilants actually useful (one of the things I liked a lot about FE6 and 12)

Edited by Irysa

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Low RES = super powered mages, usually. ESPECIALLY if nosferatu is around.

As for growths, I almost want them higher, or make bases less pronounced. In many FEs, units with good bases just tended to outperform growth units just because A) they need less work to function, B) work right away, and C) can't really be screwed. This is particularly bad in FEs where growths are quite low -- i.e., the earlier ones.

So no, growths should be a la FE10, for obvious reasons. Definitely not lower.

FE10 growths backed up by not making mages suck terribly, because even though units had better res there it wasn't really needed

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A scenario with this is best would be Thracia due to every cap being 20 except for HP, lower growths would be fine because they would grow over time but they would be pretty close to it's cap by the time they are level 20 unpromoted. Unless the game was longer than having scrolls or bands would not be totally necassiary ( for some characters that is). The growths may have to be lower but with higher bases if they were to be possibly capped or close to being capped. Also, it depends on the promotion bonuses too.

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I generally like the lower growths present in the likes of FE4's first gen and FE11, where something like a 40% is generally pretty good and characters will only really reach caps in stats they specialise in. It gives a bit more variety. If Unit A and B both reach all their caps, what's the difference between them.

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All caps being at 20 kills variety.

what makes you think that characters will hit their 20 point caps?

i do prefer differentiated stat caps because there will invariably be people who RNG abuse to reach caps and then complain that the units aren't different enough.

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what makes you think that characters will hit their 20 point caps?

i do prefer differentiated stat caps because there will invariably be people who RNG abuse to reach caps and then complain that the units aren't different enough.

well if they don't there's going to be plenty of complaining about extremely crappy growth rates

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FE5 caps with low growths all around and no scrolls would've been interesting. It's not like you really need growths much in that game though, with all the overpowered personal weapons, staves and stuff like PCC. Capturing would be a bit harder though.

Also growths need to make a bit more sense. How come Karel has growths over 100% all across the board while someone else of his age like Bartre has fairly average growths for a prepromote. I know he only gets a single level but those kind of growths would fit a young character such as Wendy or arguably Sophia more.

The way I see it, the younger you are, the more you can progress and therefore, the higher your growths. Aside of a few characters, FE6 actually did that pretty well.

Edited by Woodshooter

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FE5 caps with low growths all around and no scrolls would've been interesting. It's not like you really need growths much in that game though, with all the overpowered personal weapons, staves and stuff like PCC. Capturing would be a bit harder though.

Also growths need to make a bit more sense. How come Karel has growths over 100% all across the board while someone else of his age like Bartre has fairly average growths for a prepromote. I know he only gets a single level but those kind of growths would fit a young character such as Wendy or arguably Sophia more.

The way I see it, the younger you are, the more you can progress and therefore, the higher your growths. Aside of a few characters, FE6 actually did that pretty well.

Karel is just rusty from not fighting from a long time, I think, which is why his level up is so strong.

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they need to lower caps and growths. tellius and ylisse went goddamn crazy with the stat caps. it was more reasonable for both of those games, one has 3 tiers worth of classes, the other has an infinite possibility of level ups, but still it's insane. (or will characters eventually stop earning exp?)

i am really fond of the balance FE7 had. some characters could use buffs, others nerfs, but overall it was pretty good.

Edited by Phoenix Wright

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they need to lower caps and growths. tellius and ylisse went goddamn crazy with the stat caps. it's more reasonable for both of those games, one has 3 tiers worth of classes, the other has an infinite possibility of level ups, but still it's insane.. (or will characters eventually stop earning exp?)

i am really fond of the balance FE7 had. some characters could use buffs, others nerfs, but overall it was pretty good.

well for FE10, if it was the traditional 2-tier system every single unit you actually used seriously would ram their level caps by the end of part 3

that would be.....really stupid

Edited by shadykid

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