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We all know the scene at the end of chapter 14. Where in a desperate move the Avatar plans to set the enemy fleet alight. It works at the cost of about half of the fleet.

Yet many people I've seen nitpick this is a total illogical strategy. I have a counter argument. In 208 AD there was a battle in China known as the Battle of Red Cliffs also known as Chibi. Keep your hats on this is going to be a history lesson.

Note some bits are taken from my memory and some from Wikipedia to make my explanation better

The rouge ruler Liu Bei who for a good number of years had been roaming China trying to find a foothold to fight the lord of the North Cao Cao. Forged an alliance with the ruler of the south lands Sun Quan having succeeded his eldest brother Sun Ce [who was known as The Little Conqueror for his quick defeat of the lords of the Wu lands] after his very untimely young death at the age of 26.

Cao Cao who had chased Liu Bei into the south along with a mass group of peasants and some loyal followers. planned on defeating both lords at once and if he had, it would have been a total victory for Cao Cao's Force which would be later renamed Wei.

Zhuge Liang, a gifted minister of Liu Bei's. Was sent to talk about the possible alliance

By the time Zhuge Liang arrived in the south lands of Sun Quan, Cao Cao had already sent Sun Quan a letter boasting of commanding 800,000 men and hinting that he wanted Sun to surrender, the faction led by Sun Quan's Chief Clerk, Zhang Zhao, advocated surrender, citing Cao Cao's overwhelming numerical advantage. However, on separate occasions, Lu Su, Zhuge Liang, and Sun Quan's chief commander, Zhou Yu, all presented arguments to persuade Sun Quan to agree to the alliance against the northerners.

Including their naval advantage, because Cao Cao until this point had rarely had to fight on the sea, and the men of the south often boasted of their naval prowess, Sun Ce before his untimely death had even recruited quite a few pirates into his force.

Sun Quan eventually agreed to the alliance. Famously cutting his desk in half with his fathers sword, and claiming "Anyone who still dares argue for surrender will be treated the same as this desk" It's also depicted in some media to have been Zhang Zhao's letter of surrender along with the desk

He then assigned Zhou Yu, Cheng Pu, and Lu Su with 30,000 men to aid Liu Bei against Cao Cao, Although Cao Cao had boasted command of 800,000 men, Zhou Yu estimated Cao Cao's actual troop strength to be closer to 220,000. Furthermore, this total included 70,000 troops via impressment from the armies of the recently deceased Liu Biao lord of the Jing territory and relative to Liu Bei, so the loyalty and morale of a large number of Cao Cao's force was very unclear.

The combined Sun-Liu force sailed upstream from either Xiakou or Fankou to Red Cliffs as I will show on this map below, where they encountered Cao Cao's vanguard force. Plagued by disease and low morale due to the series of forced marches they had undertaken on the prolonged southern campaign, Cao Cao's men could not gain an advantage in the small skirmish which ensued, so Cao Cao retreated to Wulin (north of the Yangtze River) and the allies pulled back to the south

782px-Battle_of_Red_Cliffs_208_extended_

Cao Cao in desperation to keep more of his men from getting sick, decided to moor his boats together. Because of his northern based troops they were not used to the sea at all.

One of Sun Quan's officers Huang Gai, who had been serving since the days of his father Sun Jian [Who for a little backstory was the famed Tiger of Jiang Dong, Pirate Hunter and descendant of the Art of War's creator Sun Tzu] noticed just how easily it would be to set the entire fleet ablaze.

He decided to fake a surrender, and defection. He took a squad of ships along with him. and his small fleet sailed towards Cao Cao's base. The wind was blowing strongly from the southeast. When Huang Gai's fleet reached the middle of the river, the ships all raised their sails, and Huang Gai lifted a torch and instructed his men to shout "We surrender!" Cao Cao's troops came out of the camp to look and they said Huang Gai was coming to join them. he ordered his men to set the ships on fire and they boarded the smaller boats behind. As the wind was very strong, the flaming ships sailed towards Cao Cao's warships at fast speed and caused them to catch fire as well. Cao Cao's ships were all burnt down the flames also spread quickly to his camps on land. Zhou Yu then ordered an attack on Cao Cao's base and scored a major victory. Cao Cao retreated north with his surviving troops after his defeat.

Liu Bei along with his small force did attempt to give chase but were unable to succeed in catching Cao Cao. Later the Three Kingdoms Era would officially start. Liu Bei in the Shu-lands, Sun Quan in Wu and Cao Cao with Wei.

As you can see.. The avatar's fleet burning tactic isn't quite so farfetch'd now is it? Granted it was much easier to pull off then the Sun-Liu forces but all and all. I don't see why people complain about this scene. There are plenty of other things to nitpick about the games plot.

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Not sure why so many people were calling this such a terribly inhumane tactic, considering its more or less the same as we have been doing this whole game: destroying the enemy that's not only in the way but en route to harm innocent civilians. Considering that Chrom's army didn't even have enough troops to fill their fleet, it was actually a good tactic to both get rid of the enemy and any unnecessary ships they could afford to sacrifice.

Nice history lesson, BTW, thanks!

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Wait, really? I've only heard complains about the morality and how they were praised for it, and not about the realism behind it.

Either way, it' so true. Even further back in time there was the Greek Fire, a liquid specially made to ignite on air contact so the fire would rain on the enemy ships (though it wasn't without it's flaws since it could also ignite your own ships). It's a very old tactic, that it is.

Edited by Acacia Sgt

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I think the complaints are more that Avatar is praised for it, they never pause to think about all the enemy lives that plan took, While Micaiah at least gets some hatred for her 3-12 plan.

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I've never heard it get called inhumane. I've heard it get called an asspull or impractical, or impossible a few times though.

(Oops, wait, it happened in real life, guess it's not now is it)

Miciaiah's thing gets pointed out because she was

Going to torch her own sister, but everyone who points that out also happens to forget that, guess what, she did not know that at that time. (I see bigger problems with that event, namely Ike being Deus Ex Machina there)

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I think the complaints are more that Avatar is praised for it, they never pause to think about all the enemy lives that plan took

Because FE games have dozens of moments where the Lord characters are criticized by their comrades for all the enemies who die fighting their armies.

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Because FE games have dozens of moments where the Lord characters are criticized by their comrades for all the enemies who die fighting their armies.

Well, they're almost never criticized for it, but Lords feeling guilty about killing their enemies is a pretty major theme.

Marth and Eliwood come to mind as some of the most prominent examples. They are almost constantly talking about how they wish there was a peaceful alternative to what they have to do, and in the event that an enemy uses "dirty" tactics they get all shocked and appalled by it.

By contrast Avatar is praised for his/her dirty tactics. It's not totally out of place, because the game makes an effort to portray Avatar as someone who has to be "ruthless", at least in terms of strategy, because his Lord Chrom is honorable and won't resort to anything other than a fair fight. It is a little odd that Chrom doesn't make a bigger deal about feeling bad for all those drowned enemies, but Chrom has always been one of the more violent Lord characters like Hector or Ephraim, and throughout the Valm arc starts to pick up more of his sister's traits.

Micaiah is also singled out in her game as a character who uses dirty tactics, but it's important to note that she doesn't want to. She feels like she has to follow the orders in order to protect her country. Another character might not have done the same thing, but it's notable because she herself hates the tactics she uses.

Edited by Chaotix

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Micaiah is also singled out in her game as a character who uses dirty tactics, but it's important to note that she doesn't want to. She feels like she has to follow the orders in order to protect her country. Another character might not have done the same thing, but it's notable because she herself hates the tactics she uses.

If I might note:

Her dirty tactic that everyone considered to be cowardly and cruel and stuff, was to throw oil down a canyon and setting it on fire.

So yeah, even everyones favorite Mary Sue doesn't exactly get congratulated for such brilliant strategies like Robin was. Except by Soren of course.

Soren: That was impressive. You killed thousands of beorc soldiers with your little ambush. Well done.

No wonder the tome named after Micaiah is a fire tome.

I also wonder if DLC Micaiah's conversation with Robin revolves around killing.people with burning oil.

Edited by BrightBow

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If I might note:

Her dirty tactic that everyone considered to be cowardly and cruel and stuff, was to throw oil down a canyon and setting it on fire.

So yeah, even everyones favorite Mary Sue doesn't exactly get congratulated for such brilliant strategies like Robin was. Except by Soren of course.

Soren: That was impressive. You killed thousands of beorc soldiers with your little ambush. Well done.

That almost seems blatantly sarcastic, but knowing Soren I'm probably wrong.

I suppose the whole positioning in Awakening between Radiant Dawn is a bit different though.

Micaiah's enemies weren't her enemies in the first place, they were fighting for seemingly no reason, other than to "kill the laguz" (according to the troops and Ike's army), while in Awakening the whole situation is basically "they bad, they die." So the situation in itself is a lot more reasonable for Micaiah to be hated but for MU to be praised. Unlike Radiant Dawn, the enemy army is kind of generic as well, which basically goes back to the whole "they bad, they die" thing since the commanders are supposed to act like baddies and thus not really care for the lives of the people. (Although that's proven wrong later I am assuming it's just to drive the plot)

Edited by Quick

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I only know this because I've played the Dynasty Warriors series. One day I went through the information in the game and boiiiiii was it long. And informative.

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By contrast Avatar is praised for his/her dirty tactics. It's not totally out of place, because the game makes an effort to portray Avatar as someone who has to be "ruthless", at least in terms of strategy, because his Lord Chrom is honorable and won't resort to anything other than a fair fight. It is a little odd that Chrom doesn't make a bigger deal about feeling bad for all those drowned enemies, but Chrom has always been one of the more violent Lord characters like Hector or Ephraim, and throughout the Valm arc starts to pick up more of his sister's traits.

Bolded : Chapter 18 : "Hey Say'ri ! Let's burn thousands of Valmese soldier, including your dear brother in sacrifice of Duma, OK ? Avatar, you agree to endanger anyone to makes them rot in Hell, right ?".

Chrom isn't above any dirty tactics. He also flat out says that he don't care about what will happens to Plegia, and wants to kill them all, and hve Gangrel's head on a pike because of what he has done to Emm...

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This chapter is what made me sure My Unit isn't a real Self-Insert, just a second lord you can customize. :/ I would never, EVER resort to such cruel, heartless tactics, even if my country was on the brink of war and/or being wiped out. I can't think of anything better, but still...it left such a horrible taste in my mouth. Especially since My Unit is PRAISED for it, people reacting in wonder (oh wow the sea is on fire, let's ignore the cruel and unusual deaths the men are suffering right now).

It's just...ugh.

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I believe all the nitpicking at Robin's strategy was mostly because, just like every other plan he or she has in the game, it's a last-minute asspull that has no foreshadowing whatsoever. The fact that it serves to make it seem like Chrom and Robin are morally superior is gag inducing.

But I'm a bit perplexed at people condemning it as an immoral tactic. Dirty? Possibly. But given the fact that Valm is about to run roughshod all over the Ylissian continent and pretty much rape and plunder, I'm pretty sure any other alternative would have been far worse.

You have to remember that they are massively outnumbered and are guaranteed to lose any head-to-head confrontation. It's basically win or everybody in your country dies. It's not surprising they resorted to such a tactic given it was sound and probably the only reliable way they had to achieve victory. Look at tacticians throughout the series and many of their plans are no different under some sort of duress; August is one of the prime examples, but both Soren and Micaiah are good examples as well in the way they frame their strategies.

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He also flat out says that he don't care about what will happens to Plegia, and wants to kill them all, and hve Gangrel's head on a pike because of what he has done to Emm...

Yep, that's exactly what he says, and not in any way twisted by dislike for the character.

Chrom

I hope she can see this, wherever she is... Today we put an end to Mad King Gangrel and bring peace back to the land.

Gangrel

Good day, my little princeling! Still dreaming of your squashed sister?

Chrom

No more talk, Gangrel. Today you die, and peace returns to Ylisse and Plegia.

Exactly what he said.

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Why do people say that killing enemies makes Chrom and the avatar heartless? There are medals that are given out in the U.S. Army for "Gallantry in action against an enemy of the United States" i.e. killing them. These medals are given by people who many would consider war heroes. So just because you kill people and don't dwell on it much isn't a reason to hate them.

Especially consider there's a conversation about WHY no one really talks about killing humans

edit:

Ignore this post I didn't realize I was necroposting

Edited by Trickster

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Miciaiah's thing gets pointed out because she was

Going to torch her own sister, but everyone who points that out also happens to forget that, guess what, she did not know that at that time.

What? No, just no. Not even the character knew she was Sanaki's sister. Everyone, including her own troops condemn her for such dirty tactics. Nobody knew of her relationship with Sanaki and that is in no way, the focus of that scene.

But in Avatar's case, everyone and their brother gushes about how amazing Avatar is and no one even stops to consider the kind of dirty tactics they used. And then there's the fact that they somehow managed to get the ship so near to the commander's ship without any problem. That's an asspull.

The hypocrisy is my main problem with it. Micaiah is routinely called a Mary Sue when she's far from it. Her detractors still condemn her for her acts yet continue to call her a Mary Sue. Yest Avatar gets off without any criticism at all, both from the characters and from fans. That's the stupid.

It's why I say that Awakening has no sense of Grey morality, aside from tokenism. The heroes are good and never do bad while the villains are all evil even when the game says they had good intentions (Walhart) or they're just evil for the sake of being evil (Gangrel and Validar). It's all black and white and it's very boring.

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Can someone explaim how the avatar being praised for it is any different from other lords being praised by liberating their counties? If he didn't what he did, his country would have been destroyed.

Every war veteran or hero was literally praised for killing people. Marth was praised for killing people. Sigurd was praised for killig people. Roy was praised for killing people. Ephraim was praised for killing thousands of enemies with only 3 man. Ike was praised for killig people. Seliph was praised for killing people.

In war, people are praised for killing others all the time, so get over it. If it annoys you so much you shouldn't be playing a game that focuses on WAR!

Edit: sorry, i never realized it was a necrobump.

Edited by Nobody

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Now see, if they'd just pursued Lu Bu, none of this would've happened.

Nonetheless, this is a pretty cool post.

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Can someone explaim how the avatar being praised for it is any different from other lords being praised by liberating their counties? If he didn't what he did, his country would have been destroyed.

Every war veteran or hero was literally praised for killing people. Marth was praised for killing people. Sigurd was praised for killig people. Roy was praised for killing people. Ephraim was praised for killing thousands of enemies with only 3 man. Ike was praised for killig people. Seliph was praised for killing people.

In war, people are praised for killing others all the time, so get over it. If it annoys you so much you shouldn't be playing a game that focuses on WAR!

Edit: sorry, i never realized it was a necrobump.

You forgot to point out that various Lords don't really show that they're really all that upset about the whole killing soldiers thing. Sigurd really wasn't shown to be upset about killing any of his countrymen in Chapter 5.

Edited by The Void

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But the various lords are affected by having to kill enemy soldiers.

Marth has a mini moral crisis over having to kill enemy soldiers, even though he still hates them and wants revenge. In the sequel, an entire mission revolves around NOT killing the fleeing Gra soldiers and the game punishes you for doing so. Then there's the bit over having to fight (possibly kill) the Wolfguard and Hardin.

Seliph too has a moral crisis over having to kill enemy soldiers. Lewyn tells him that thus is the nature of war and that there is no other choice..

Lyn, Kent and Sain have a lengthy discussion over having to kill former comrades.

The brutal nature of war is often discussed in SS.

Compare Chrom to Ike.

Ike goes around distributing supplies to the Daein people affected by the war, despite Soren's protests. Meanwhile, Chrom is more than happy to rob Plegia blind and justify it because 'they lost'.

Now in all cases, there was NO choice but to kill them all and Lewyn even scolds Seliph for his naive attitude. However, it's at least discussed at length. The fact that there is NO discussion over this matter in FE13 is what bothers me most. Chrom would be happy to wipe out Plegia in revenge for Emm but the game just shows how evil Plegia is instead of focusing on Chrom's lust for revenge and glosses over it. It's all black and white and no room for grey in FE13.

And I guess the mods are okay with this thread getting necrod?

Edited by Ranger Jack Walker

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Its about time somebody else thought Three Kingdoms/Chibi/Redcliffs. I could give another even bigger history lesson about this but alas this isn't the time or place. So all I will say is the Avatar was basically Zhou Yu(<--This Guy Is Amazing), Zhuge Liang, and Huang Gai in one package minus the changing of the winds and the false defection plan.

[spoiler=DW8 FTW]pic6.jpg

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