SSB4: SSB for Wii U and 3DS, maybe the NX and also your toaster!

[NeonZ]

I already addressed the mascot argument. Marth isn't a good mascot because FE outside of Japan didn't start off with him

Most of the west learned about Fire Emblem's existence due to Marth's presence in Smash Bros itself though.

Ike's games were the worst selling Fire Emblem games in Japan and, although they didn't do that badly in the west, they aren't the best selling ones either. FE7 had been the best selling game in the West before Awakening.

and the only game concerning Marth which came out outside of Japan was FE11. Ike is already FE's mascot outside of Japan.

They still used "Marth" in Awakening's pre-release advertisement in the West, just like in Japan, not Ike.

The pre-release advertisement isn't even really tied to the game's story. All pre-release information, and it was something they tried to repeat in the locatlization, try to make it seem like Masked Marth was the actual Marth returned from the dead, and, yet, in game,Masked Marth is immediately considered to be just someone with the same name, even before the truth comes out, and is never regarded as the legendary king.

Edited July 18, 2014 by NeonZ

[intergalacticoh]

Smash isn't just being released in the west? Japan's had Marth and Smash is a Japan-based game, so removing Marth makes 0 sense

[Jave]

Wait, what? I never said that as evidence that Roy is less popular. I said that as evidence that his fans over-hype him as a possible returning Smash character. Big difference.

Not really. It all boils down to popularity in the end.

[Jedi]

Video games: serious business.

I already addressed the mascot argument. Marth isn't a good mascot because FE outside of Japan didn't start off with him, and the only game concerning Marth which came out outside of Japan was FE11. Ike is already FE's mascot outside of Japan.

Is it more important to have a mascot for fans outside of Japan, than inside Japan? Yes. Brawl sales are triple that of Japan's sales in North America:

http://www.vgchartz.com/game/6962/super-smash-bros-brawl/

Here is what we can conclude:

1. Ike is a better mascot than Marth.

2. Marth does not have to be the mascot for SSB4.

3. FE has never had a female representative: Lucina makes the perfect choice to replace Marth, since she even looks and fights alike with Marth.

4. Therefore, Marth doesn't need to be in the game.

PKL made the argument about Marth's playstyle. Then give Lucina a tip as well, and they'll be identical.

Marth is kind of familiar to us Westerners thanks to Smash and the fact he is the face of FE in Japan at the same time.

What you suggest would be akin to saying Pikachu shouldn't be in smash because of a more recent Electric mouse

[Jave]

Also, this has been mentioned before, but please, VGChartz should never, ever be used as a source for anything.

[Anacybele]

As big an Ike fangirl I am and as much as I dislike Marth, I have to disagree that Ike would make more sense as the mascot. I do still think he's FE's second biggest character, though, due to Smash and having two games localized outside of Japan.

[Chiki]

As big an Ike fangirl I am and as much as I dislike Marth, I have to disagree that Ike would make more sense as the mascot. I do still think he's FE's second biggest character, though, due to Smash and having two games localized outside of Japan.

I think, everything considered, Marth is the FE mascot.

But what Sakurai has to consider is not that: he's making this game for money, and what he wants to do is maximize sales. And by far, NA is buy more games than any other region. Ike is the mascot in NA over Marth, without a doubt. He could replace Marth with someone like Snake to appeal to MGS fans.

Damn Chiki I didn't know you were working on the game and/or had been given insider peeks to know that Lucina plays completely the same aside from the tipper.

Sakurai himself said so. Read the thread, I copy pasted a paragraph of his.

Most of the west learned about Fire Emblem's existence due to Marth's presence in Smash Bros itself though.

Yes, and thanks to Roy, too, who got cut out of Brawl. Why not cut Marth out too? This just brings us back to the mascot argument, which I've addressed.

By your logic, if Zelda Wii U actually does get a female protagonist, hell, they might as well just replace Link while they're at it

The new protagonist is nowhere near as established as Link is. Comparing Link's establishment to Marth's establishment is like comparing the US to ISIS: one of which is a completely established country, and the other of which is a country which few accept.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Chiki

[shadowofchaos]

oh well i'll live

At the end of the day... or when you get you get your hands on your copy...

All of the glorious popularity arguments will pretty much amount to this.

[Jave]

Also, this has been mentioned before, but please, VGChartz should never, ever be used as a source for anything.

Reposting this for the new page. Seriously this is important guys.

[Jotari]

I think, everything considered, Marth is the FE mascot.

But what Sakurai has to consider is not that: he's making this game for money, and what he wants to do is maximize sales. And by far, NA is buy more games than any other region. Ike is the mascot in NA over Marth, without a doubt. He could replace Marth with someone like Snake to appeal to MGS fans.

Sakurai himself said so. Read the thread, I copy pasted a paragraph of his.

Yes, and thanks to Roy, too, who got cut out of Brawl. Why not cut Marth out too? This just brings us back to the mascot argument, which I've addressed.

The new protagonist is nowhere near as established as Link is. Comparing Link's establishment to Marth's establishment is like comparing the US to ISIS: one of which is a completely established country, and the other of which is a country which few accept.

I don't see how cutting Marth from Smash would increase the sales of anything. Why should Ike be the mascot? most of his fame comes from the same places as Marth's, from Smash Bros, where Marth is already more established. As someone pointed out his games didn't even sell the best over here. Eliwood's did and by you're logic that Marth makes a bad mascot because we didn't start with him it makes Eliwood the best mascot because he sold the best and we started with him.Even if Brawl sold twice as much in the west it still sold a lot in Japan so removing their mascot is going to annoy them and harm a large portion of the salesbase. Not the biggest but still a large part. Unless you suggest Marth should be playable in Japan and Lucina should be playable in Europe and America which just creates unnecessary work and would cause people to feel as if they're missing something. I don't see why the west and east need to have a different Mascot. There should be unity between the fanbases. We should want to see more of the games we didn't get localized instead of just ignoring they ever existed. IS are going to keep on making the games they make and them. being Japanese and all, are going to continue to promote Marth. Why go to the extra effort to give the west another Mascot when Marth is already well established and one of the reasons we even got Fire Emblem in the first place?

Edited July 18, 2014 by Jotari

[Anacybele]

Sakurai was going to keep Roy though. Granted, Roy was very low priority and that's why he didn't make it in, but yeah.

[Alertcircuit]

Or even just not include the Earthbound characters at all (Someone remind me, was Earthbound ever localized?)

Mother 2 was. Mother 1 and 3 were not however, so while Ness has been known in the west, Lucas's game has yet to be brought over.

Marth is the mascot for FE, don't know why that's being disputed. He's had 4 releases (5 if you count his heavy heavy influence on Awakening). Even if you bring up the whole argument that Ike is the mascot outside of Japan, Smash is a japanese game.

Also what's this about Zelda U having a new female protagonist? Eiji Aonuma announced shortly after the reveal that the character in the trailer is Link, whether male or female.

[Chiki]

Marth is the mascot for FE, don't know why that's being disputed

No one disputed it.

Even if you bring up the whole argument that Ike is the mascot outside of Japan, Smash is a japanese game.

So? MGS is a Japanese game, but it's almost completely marketed for a Western audience.

I don't see how cutting Marth from Smash would increase the sales of anything.

Putting another character like Snake instead of him would. Marth's presence is completely extraneous.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Chiki

[Anacybele]

I agree on the whole Marth is the mascot thing, but I hate when people bring up the "game X is Japanese" bullcrap. These games are MADE in Japan, but not only FOR Japan. If developers want to release their games in other regions as well, they need to appeal to those other regions too. Otherwise, what's the point?

This is why people like Little Mac and Ike are in Smash. They appeal to the western fans.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Anacybele

[NeonZ]

Yes, and thanks to Roy, too, who got cut out of Brawl. Why not cut Marth out too? This just brings us back to the mascot argument, which I've addressed.

Roy was a last minute clone added to Melee (and he also had to be unlocked after Marth, never before). Marth was an unique character already appearing in two Smash Bros games with Brawl, and he also had finally gotten a localized game with Shadow Dragon.

Replacing him with someone else with his own moveset would be pointless and wouldn't please Japanese players or Smash only fans. Only Awakening fans of the West who didn't play previous titles would be generally pleased by that.

Also, remember that this game started development as a port of Brawl and doesn't seem to introduce any new basic attacks or mechanics. So, by default, Marth was in the game, and just needed a new model and some other minor updates. Even Lucina still seems to reuse some animations straight out of Brawl Marth.

Putting another character like Snake instead of him would. Marth's presence is completely extraneous.

If Snake is cut, it most likely will have to do with Nintendo's bad relationship with Konami, or the recent Western VA change, which would raise the costs of his inclusion, more than any other character replacing him. Just like Marth, Snake's entire basis is already there from Brawl though.

And there aren't new basic movements or attacks here (Melee added spot dodge, air dodge, forward B, while Brawl added swimming, climbing, Final Smash... The new SSB doesn't seem to be adding any new basic mechanics, so the Brawl characters should be pretty much compatible with it already).

Edited July 18, 2014 by NeonZ

[Anacybele]

Also, remember that this game started development as a port of Brawl

Wait, where was this ever said? o_O

[Jotari]

Mother 2 was. Mother 1 and 3 were not however, so while Ness has been known in the west, Lucas's game has yet to be brought over.

Quoting this comment because the original is a page or two back. Mother 2 or Earthbound wasn't released in Europe until the Virtual Console release last year. Not disputing any point, just throwing that out there, Europe has been screwed by Mother releases even more than America which hasn't done well.

Putting another character like Snake instead of him would. Marth's presence is completely extraneous.

So are you saying it's not about Marth's actual importance as a character in the series but about his appearance? He isn't manly enough for the west. You think the games would sell more if we had a grizzled testosterone fueled muscle man. Well I know that wouldn't appeal to me and I don't think Fire Emblem has that intended style at all despite being the Nintendo series with by far the highest death toll. Unless you're saying Smash would sell better is Marth was replaced by a woman and that somehow allowed Snake to get back in the game.

[intergalacticoh]

Marth is a staple of smash. How did this argument even get started?

Marth is very, very well-known now thanks to smash, which already has a much wider audience than FE does. Marth appeals to both FE and smash crowds, while having a newer mascot would be a disservice to current smash fans. Still, people are suggesting that other FE reps are "better" because of more recent, localized games. Has anyone forgotten that Melee was localized? Marth was the very first exposure a lot of people (including myself) got to FE. He's a great character. Don't forget, Shadow Dragon is a thing and Awakening heavily plays off of Marth's entire story and name. Marth is the single most ubiquitous FE character in the franchise.

Ridiculous argument.

[NeonZ]

Wait, where was this ever said? o_O

The early Iwata/Sakurai interview about the future plans regarding the game's development - after the game was announced to exist but before we even got the announcement that it would be co-developed by Namco Bandai. Porting Brawl to Wii U and 3ds would be the first step in the development of the new game, and it seems to line up with what we've seen afterwards.

(The Marth gif is from Brawl).

Edit: Just to clear any misunderstanding, that just means that the first step in developing the game was porting Brawl, not that the game was intended to be a Brawl port.

Edited July 18, 2014 by NeonZ

[BANRYU]

Marth is a staple of smash. How did this argument even get started?

Given the sheer stupidity of the argument I'd say it's probably just to troll and piss people off.

At which he seems to have succeeded o3o

So um. To return the topic to the game it's actually about.

I'm still wondering about stages we haven't seen yet, like the 3DS Metroid and WiiU Kirby stages.

[Anacybele]

The early Iwata/Sakurai interview about the future plans regarding the game's development - after the game was announced to exist but before we even got the announcement that it would be co-developed by Namco Bandai. Porting Brawl to Wii U and 3ds would be the first step in the development of the new game, and it seems to line up with what we've seen afterwards.

(The Marth gif is from Brawl).

Edit: Just to clear any misunderstanding, that just means that the first step in developing the game was porting Brawl, not that the game was intended to be a Brawl port.

Ohhh, I see now. I was about to say, SSB4 originally intending to be a Brawl port doesn't make sense because I think they would've told us if this was the case back when they said during an E3 that "we will be making Smash for both 3DS and Wii U." xP

But yeah, Lucina's animation there seems to be taken straight from Brawl Marth. Lucina not completely bringing her hand to her chest looks kinda odd though.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Anacybele

[Alertcircuit]

Wonder if the code for the forbidden 7 is still gonna be in there then.

[Naui]

Wonder if the code for the forbidden 7 is still gonna be in there then.

Doubt it. They only existed because they were considered if I remember correctly. Given that Smash 4 will be on a new engine, we'll probably see a "new forbidden 7" of other characters considered but ultimately not added.

[metalsnowman3]

Count me in for the super bash sisters tournament, I'll just have to decide whether to play as Lucina or Robin (F).

The early Iwata/Sakurai interview about the future plans regarding the game's development - after the game was announced to exist but before we even got the announcement that it would be co-developed by Namco Bandai. Porting Brawl to Wii U and 3ds would be the first step in the development of the new game, and it seems to line up with what we've seen afterwards.

(The Marth gif is from Brawl).

Edit: Just to clear any misunderstanding, that just means that the first step in developing the game was porting Brawl, not that the game was intended to be a Brawl port.

Hmm, makes me a little sad that they don't have like Lucina's standing pose from Awakening where she hold the sword with 2 hands in an unorthodox way (at least to me, I don't know anything about sword stances). Also this makes it even more obvious that they probably didn't spend too much time with Lucina (not that I'm complaining). I think it would have been weird if Marth, even though he is fabulous, had a costume where he grew out his hair and turned into a girl.

I do feel bad for Chrom fans though, if Lucina did take anyone's spot, it was his, not to mention all the gifs making fun of Chrom (though I still think they are hilarious).

[Anacybele]

On one hand, I can see why Sakurai decided to give Lucina Marth's animations. She DOES want to be just like him, doesn't she? She probably considers him her idol. On the other though, she DOES have her own animations as well...