SSB4: SSB for Wii U and 3DS, maybe the NX and also your toaster!

[Refa]

It's not really a big deal, it's just semantics. And you're probably right about other people needing buffs more at this point (not that they'll ever get them now).

[Great Geargia Gateway]

Well... that's that. Sakurai's done.
http://mynintendonews.com/2016/02/09/sakurai-thanks-super-smash-bros-fans/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook
whether we'll get more buffs and nerfs or any other update or not is unconfirmed.

[King Marth 64]

Bayonetta is never getting nerfed. GOOD.

And plus, no fixes for other untouched glitches also.

And also, I did tested it out on the newer patch, the controller glitch is still working, but I don't know about the R.O.B.'s Coal Black Iced Glitch and Toad Glitch with involving with Peach wearing the Franklin Badge and hit by Ness's side smash attack were fixed or not?

Also, Corrin can trap all 7 fighters in his/her final smash also.

Edited February 10, 2016 by Mike Jones

[Busterman64]

The problem with fixing one issue is that two more issues will show up. The team needs to rest. It's just how it is.

Debugging 101.

This is pretty much the geist of it. Sakurai can patch the game all he wants, but to make it so that there are no glitchs and make everyone completely balanced would take ALOT of work and who knows when it would end. Patching one issue would most likely create another.

Now that isn't to say that fixing glitches and the such is not important, but continuing to patch the game would not only drain Sakurai massively, but then he would have no time to do much else and that wouldn't be right or fair for him.

This implies that they had flaws that need to be addressed or that Marth even needed to be fixed.

There are more ways to play this game than 1v1 and Sakurai has to balance knowing that. Yeah he's thrown us some bones like Luma getting doubled respawn time in 1.0.4 or the Luigi nerf. But as a whole we're a minority fanbase (remember the Smash polls that circulated around our sections of the fanbase that heralded Shovel Knight and K. Rool as the ballot winner. That should make it clear that we're honestly insignificant).

Guys like Shulk, Link, Dedede, Charizard and Ganondorf are low on the tier list because they suck at 1v1. But throw them into a free for all and their awful end lag doesn't matter because you can throw out 40 frame smashes with no care. There's guys like Sheik and Rosalina who suck at free for all but rock the 1v1 like nothing.

Zelda and Jiggs are the only guys that I really feel don't have an obvious place in any game style but that's due to their character design moreso than anything else that can be done balance-wise; I legitimately think both are unsalvagable. Palutena and Miis shoot up the list when customs get turned on and Sakurai balances if customs are on because people might play with them on.

This is another good point (minus the insignificant part, that seems a bit too harsh. Although, I can kinda see what you mean). Sakurai can only cater to both sides so much. Catering one side a lot more would hurt the other.

I'm not sure how much his opinions on competitive smash is nowadays (although it seems to be better now), but I do imagine that he does try to cater to the competitive side of smash.

That and the other minorities when it comes to smash bros. (because while Geno is only a costume in smash, how many people do you know who wanted him in at all? Cloud even? When Cloud was revealed, I never knew that people wanted him before. He has shown that even though it's not a super loud request, he can still hear the request and is willing to give us what we want if he can.) He does hear the minorities, he can't hear ALL of them, but he can hear some of them though...although some are louder than others.

( *cough*...Mewtwo smash bros. fans...*cough*)

Also, low tier or not, Ganondorf...is a boss! :3

[Quintessence]

Doof has a good point. This topic mostly discusses competitive stuff and disregard/aren't aware that Smash is also played for fun. It is completely wrong to ignore or undervalue one play style over the other since both grant fun to the player, which is the whole point of the game in itself.

[Jave]

It would be hilarious to attempt a Free-4-All Tier List.

[Ema Skye]

Insignificant may have been a bit over the top, but you got the point I was trying to make, which is that we're way more of a vocal minority than we think we are. Competitive and semi-competitive players like to think that they're the largest portion of the Smash fanbase.

I know for me that as someone who only plays with casual players in real life, going full out with 8-players with all items on Great Cave Offensive is absolutely hilarious and creates memories that won't be forgotten soon, especially when you throw in an amiibo or 3. I honestly don't think I'd enjoy Smash as much as I do if this side of the fanbase was shrugged aside.

Then again, I work with teenagers and I basically get paid to play video games with them so I may be a little skewed.

[Knife]

Why not both?

Many things can be balanced without affecting the casual aspect of it. "Omg my ZSS Upair>Upair>Up B kills 25% later!" Said no casual ever.

Edited February 10, 2016 by Knife

[Jotari]

It would be hilarious to attempt a Free-4-All Tier List.

Especially if it was based around 8 player Free For Alls.

[The DanMan]

Why not both?

Many things can be balanced without affecting the casual aspect of it. "Omg my ZSS Upair>Upair>Up B kills 25% later!" Said no casual ever.

My casual friends noticed the gradual buffs Ike got overtime, and trying to pull off combos is a pretty common occurrence. Heck, I'm a casual and fit right in there.

Drawing strict lines between "competitive" and "casual" is pointless, as there are many different flavors in-between.

[Leif]

And plus, no fixes for other untouched glitches also.

And also, I did tested it out on the newer patch, the controller glitch is still working, but I don't know about the R.O.B.'s Coal Black Iced Glitch and Toad Glitch with involving with Peach wearing the Franklin Badge and hit by Ness's side smash attack were fixed or not?

Also, Corrin can trap all 7 fighters in his/her final smash also.

I love how they all merge into one. Those are pretty nasty glitches. I wonder if Sakurai will ever fix those bugs.

I think he should take a few months break at the very least since SSB4 has probably consumed his entire life by now.

[Jedi]

Hey I love both the competitive and casual side of smash, i'm all for 1 v 1's or goofy 4/8 for alls both.

Looks like people have found pretty much all the new patches info.

I'll post the changes here too just to show.

Bowser

Dash Attack Early/Late Damage: 10/8 -> 12/10

Uthrow KBG: 155 -> 180
Flying Slam:
Ground Hand Hitbox:
Size: 4/3 -> 5/4
Large Hitbox X Position: 17 -> 17.5
Ground to Air Hand Hitbox:
Size: 1/1 -> 2/2
Outer Hitbox X Position: 17 -> 17.5
Air Hand Hitbox:
Size: 5/3.5 -> 6/4.5
Large Hitbox X Position: 15 -> 15.5

Bowser Jr

Fair Normal Hit Damage: 8/6.5 -> 9/7

Fsmash Duration: 59F -> 55F
Usmash Duration: 61F -> 56F
Dsmash Duration: 67F -> 59F

Captain Falcon

Visual: Final Smash effects changed

Charizard

Usmash:
Usmash First Hit:
Aerial Hit X Position: 10.5 -> 11.0
Ground Hit:
Hitbox 1:
Bone swapped with previous Hitbox 2 (swaps the priority of the two hitboxes)
Hitbox X/Z Position: 4.2/3.2 -> 2.5/1.5
Angle: 100 -> 140
KB: 40 -> 30
Size: 5.0 -> 4.2
Hitbox 2:
Hitbox X/Y Position: 2/1 -> 4/-1.5
Hitbox 3:
Angle: 270 -> 280
Size: 4 -> 5
Usmash Second Hit:
Hitbox 1 KBG: 105 -> 107
Hitbox 2 KBG: 103 -> 107
Hitbox 3 KBG: 101 -> 107
Trip Followup:
Stand Up Invincibility: 17F -> 16F
Forward Roll Invincibility: 10F -> 9F
Back Roll Invincibility: 10F -> 9F
Trip Invincibility:
Soft Trip: 6F -> 5F
Hard Trip: 6F -> 5F

Cloud

TBD

Diddy Kong

Trip Followup:
Stand Up Invincibility: 17F -> 16F
Forward Roll Invincibility: 10F -> 9F
Back Roll Invincibility: 10F -> 9F
Trip Invincibility:
Soft Trip: 6F -> 5F
Hard Trip: 6F -> 5F

Falco

Usmash:
Usmash First Hit:
Hitbox Startup: 8F -> 7F
Leg Intangibility: N/A -> 7F-11F
Hitbox 0:
Base KB: 60 -> 70
KBG: 25 -> 18
X Position: 1.5 -> 2
Hitbox 1:
Base KB: 60 -> 70
KBG: 25 -> 18
Hitbox 2:
Base KB: 80 -> 70
KBG: 30 -> 18
X Position: 5 -> 7.7
Other X Position: Position: 5 -> 7
Usmash Second Hit:
Hitbox Startup: 13F -> 12F
Hitbox 0:
Base KB: 30 -> 31
KBG: 98 -> 104
X Position: 5 -> 7
Hitbox 1:
Base KB: 30 -> 31
KBG: 98 -> 104
X Position: 1.5 -> 2
Hitbox 2:
Base KB: 30 -> 31
KBG: 98 -> 104
Down Smash KBG: 76 -> 78
Trip Followup:
Stand Up Invincibility: 17F -> 16F
Forward Roll Invincibility: 10F -> 9F
Back Roll Invincibility: 10F -> 9F
Trip Invincibility:
Soft Trip: 6F -> 5F
Hard Trip: 6F -> 5F
Bugfix: Down Throw Ledge Spike Bug removed (Could stage spike Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Samus, etc at the ledge)

Fox

Hard Trip Invincibility: 0F -> 5F

Ganondorf

Weight: 112 -> 113

Ike

Nair:
Sweet/Sour Damage: 9/6 -> 10/7
Angle: 70 -> 80
Fair:
Damage: 12 -> 13
Reach Range Maximum: 10.5 -> 12
Middle Hitbox Displacement: 6.75 -> 7.5
Fsmash:
Sourspot Damage: 17 -> 19
Sourspot Angle: 60 -> 57
Sourspot: Sound Effect Change
Eruption (Non Fully Charged) Flame Hitbox Duration: 3F -> 5F

Kirby

Weight: 77 -> 79
Copy Ability: Corrin and Bayonetta Copy Abilities added
Hard Trip Invincibility: 0F -> 5F

Little Mac

Fsmash:
Up Angle:
Sweet/Sour Damage: 19/17 -> 20/18
Sweet/Sour KBG: 85/85 -> 81/81
No Angle:
Sweet/Sour Damage: 19/17 -> 20/18
Sweet/Sour KBG: 30/30 -> 31/31
Down Angle:
Damage: 22 -> 24
KBG: 22 -> 21
Utilt:
Angle: 85 -> 88
Hitbox Startup: 5F -> 4F
Hitbox Duration: 6F -> 7F
Usmash:
Sweet/Sour Damage: 20/15 -> 21/16
Sweet/Sour KBG: 80/100 -> 76/96
Dsmash:
Damage: 12 -> 13
KBG: 100 -> 94

Lucina

Jab 1:
Duration: 28F -> 25F
Hitbox X Position: 6.5 -> 7
Jab 2 Hitbox X Position: 6.5 -> 7
Ftilt:
Duration: 36F -> 33F
Hitbox X Position: 6.7 -> 7.7
Second Hitbox X Position: 2 -> 2.5
Dtilt:
Hitbox X Position: 6.7 -> 8.2
Second Hitbox X/Y Position: 15.2/3.2 -> 16.7/2.7
Nair:
Nair First Hit:
Damage: 3.345 -> 4.2
Hitbox X Position: 6.7 -> 7.7
Nair Second Hit:
Damage: 7.6 -> 8.5
Hitbox X Position: 6.5 -> 7.5
Fair:
Damage: 8.5 -> 10.5
Hitbox X Position: 6.7 -> 7.7
Bair:
Damage: 9.975 -> 11.8
Hitbox X Position: 6.7 -> 7.7
Second Hitbox X Position: 2 -> 2.5
Uair Damage: 9.975 -> 11.4
Dair Normal/Meteor Damage: 11.4/13.3 -> 12.3/14.2
Utilt Duration: 36F -> 33F
Dsmash Duration: 64F -> 54F
Dancing Blade:
Startup: 7F -> 6F
Total Ground/Air Duration: 42/32F -> 41/31F

Marth

Jab 1:
Duration: 28F -> 25F
Tipper Hitbox X Position: 6.5 -> 7
Jab 2 Tipper Hitbox X Position: 6.5 -> 7
Ftilt:
Duration: 36F -> 33F
Tipper Hitbox X Position: 6.7 -> 7.7
Sour Hitbox X Position: 2 -> 2.5
Dtilt:
Tipper Hitbox X Position: 6.7 -> 8.2
Sour Hitbox X/Y Position: 15.2/3.2 -> 16.7/2.7
Nair:
Nair First Hit:
Sour/Tipper Damage: 3/4 -> 3.5/5
Tipper Hitbox X Position: 6.7 -> 7.7
Nair Second Hit:
Sour/Tipper Damage: 7/9 -> 7/9.5
Tipper Hitbox X Position: 6.5 -> 7.5
Fair:
Sour/Tipper Damage: 7/10 -> 8/11.5
Tipper Hitbox X Position: 6.7 -> 7.7
Bair:
Tipper Damage: 12 -> 12.5
Tipper Hitbox X Position: 6.7 -> 7.7
Sour Hitbox X Position: 2 -> 2.5
Uair Sour/Tipper Damage: 9/12 -> 9.5/13
Dair Sour/Tipper/Meteor Damage: 11/13/14 -> 12/14/15
Utilt Duration: 36F -> 33F
Dsmash Duration: 64F -> 54F
Dancing Blade:
Startup: 7F -> 6F
Total Ground/Air Duration: 42/32F -> 41/31F

Dank Pit

Visual: Final Smash effects changed

R.O.B

Trip Followup:
Stand Up Invincibility: 17F -> 16F
Forward Roll Invincibility: 10F -> 9F
Back Roll Invincibility: 10F -> 9F
Trip Invincibility:
Soft Trip: 6F -> 5F
Hard Trip: 6F -> 5F

Rosaluma

Weight: 78 -> 77

Roy

Nair Landing Lag: 13F -> 11F
Fair Landing Lag: 15F -> 13F
Uair Landing Lag: 16F -> 14F
Bair Landing Lag: 19F -> 16F
Dair Landing Lag: 28F -> 23F
Double-Edge Dance:
Startup: 7F -> 6F
Total Ground/Air Duration: 42/32F -> 41/31F

Sheik

Weight: 85 -> 84
Vanish:
Disappearance Hitbox KBG: 104 -> 102

Hitbox Size: 14 -> 13

Shulk

Visual: Monado beam effects changed

Sonic

Weight: 95 -> 94

Toon Link

Bair Landing Lag: 22F -> 17F
Fsmash First Hit: Altered to properly connect at more %s.
Spin Attack:
Uncharged/Full Charge Startup: 11/70F -> 9/68F
Uncharged/Full Charge Duration: 82/141F -> 80/140F
Flying Spin Attack Uncharged/Full Charge Startup: 11/70F -> 9/68F
Trip Followup:
Stand Up Invincibility: 17F -> 16F
Forward Roll Invincibility: 10F -> 9F
Back Roll Invincibility: 10F -> 9F
Trip Invincibility:
Soft Trip: 6F -> 5F
Hard Trip: 6F -> 5F

Wario

Bugfix: Grounded State Glitch removed

Wii Fit Trainer

TBD

Yoshi

Trip Followup:
Stand Up Invincibility: 17F -> 16F
Forward Roll Invincibility: 10F -> 9F
Back Roll Invincibility: 10F -> 9F
Trip Invincibility:
Soft Trip: 6F -> 5F
Hard Trip: 6F -> 5F

Zelda

Visual: Final Smash effects changed

Zero Suit Samus

Weight: 81 -> 80
Boost Kick:
Final Hit Angle: 50 -> 48
Final Hit KBG: 220 -> 209

Edited February 11, 2016 by Jedi

[Great Geargia Gateway]

And yet, not a single change for Samus.

[Carmine Sword]

How much difference does an increase of 1 to a character's weight actually make? Or is it just negligible?

[Jedi]

How much difference does an increase of 1 to a character's weight actually make? Or is it just negligible?

I am actually unsure as of right now, but I imagine it makes people easier/harder to kill slightly.

[euklyd]

That said, people have found a guaranteed 0->death that works on all characters at all percent levels that can't be DI'ed out of. If Bayo players can get it to consistently work, she has a decent claim to 1st or 2nd.

funny you would mention this; PSA: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/4539ps/psa_before_you_complain_about_bayonetta_learn_how/

that being said. she's still dumb.

Is anyone happy that Smash 4 won't be getting any more new characters?

given how salty some of the DLC characters make me, yes

[Jedi]

given how salty some of the DLC characters make me, yes

Cloud or Bayo in particular? I know Cloud's limit makes you rage somewhat when we do friendlies and I use him.

[Great Geargia Gateway]

I agree, some DLC make me rage compared to how little Mewtwo, Roy and Lucas can do. Corrin... I went there, but I just don't like the idea of 0 to deaths in this game. I like Bayonetta, but she can be really, honestly, cheap.

[euklyd]

Cloud or Bayo in particular? I know Cloud's limit makes you rage somewhat when we do friendlies and I use him.

Ryu as well, somewhat, but yeah. Corrin counter salt might be a thing in the future tho.

Corrin... I went there, but I just don't like the idea of 0 to deaths in this game.

I like Bayonetta, but she can be really, honestly, cheap.

I feel like you might be talking about the wrong character wrt 0-deaths

[Elieson]

I'm still loving the power improvement to Mac, in exchange for knockback. It lets him apply so much shield pressure.

My bae Samus though....that Power Suit must be designed to restrain her power.

[Jedi]

I'm still loving the power improvement to Mac, in exchange for knockback. It lets him apply so much shield pressure.

My bae Samus though....that Power Suit must be designed to restrain her power.

Adam just didn't authorize her to be top tier in the suit see...

[Elieson]

Maybe her Smash Ball should just be Adam [spoilers], so she goes into a blind rage and shoots everything on-screen.

[BrightBow]

Maybe she never gets significantly buffed because she is so bad that she does not attract many bad players to use her in For Glory, resulting in her having a pretty decent win-loss ratio. Or maybe Sakurai's team just doesn't pay much attention to unpopular picks in general. Not that I know how many people actually still use her, mind you.

Edited February 11, 2016 by BrightBow

[Jedi]

Maybe she never gets significantly buffed because she is so bad that she does not attract many bad players to use her in For Glory, resulting in her having a pretty decent win-loss ratio. Or maybe Sakurai's team just doesn't pay much attention to unpopular picks in general. Not that I know how many people actually still use her, mind you.

There is also lag to accommodate for which helps characters like Samus in general do better.

[Great Geargia Gateway]

You guys are joking right?