Avoid boosting skills, and the avoid stack

[Tables]

I've always been quite fond of the avoid stack. For those unfamiliar with the term, this is where you pile up avoid boosting abilities onto a unit, making them nigh on unhittable.

But my question today is, how good is it, really? Is running a set like Odd Rhythm, Lucky Seven, Quick Burn, Outdoor Fighter, Limit Break a bad idea on a Nah!Morgan, for example? Or ingame, giving Sully Outdoor Fighter, Tantivity then reclassing to Myrmidon?

What about using single avoid boosting skills on their own. Outdoor Fighter in Apotheosis for example for the universal +10 avoid/+10 hit boost, is that not good? Is Charm for +5 avoid and hit to everyone near Chrom worthwhile? In game, should I look to remove those avoid boosting skills earlier if there's other options (although, I guess in game you're not likely to see more than about 6-8 skills...)?

Are avoid boosting skills underrated, or am I overvaluing them? 10 avoid seems pretty decent on it's own, to me, for example. It's mathematically better than DG+ on a front unit, unless the enemy has 80ish+ hit (although running DG+ on a front unit is questionable).

[1% critted]

Are GFAQs users idiots?

idk ask me.

Edited June 16, 2013 by 1% critted

[Tables]

Are GFAQs users idiots?

idk ask me.

:P. They seem to thing avoid boosts are terrible, and have an aggregated rating which put Aether and Rightful King as about the 5th and 8th best skills, or something. Not to mention some of them trying to argue Armsthrift as the worst skill in the game, which has been a good laugh.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

The problem with Avoid Stack are the fact that Accuracy are much higher than Evasion, and maybe Hawkeye

If you are strictly talking about Apotheosis, then yeah >_>

Streetpass are different tho

[Airship Canon]

Avo doesn't work when important.

And AT -IS- Useless. No combat value, infinite supplies of everything.

[Redwall]

Armsthrift is only worthless in a postgame setting if you disregard the value of human time spent farming weapons.

[Chiki]

Armsthrift is pretty worthless because the best weapons are the Brave / Celica's Gale / Waste weapons, all of which are buyable. It's a waste of a skill slot.

[Randa]

Skill +2 is the most useless skill. Now that that's out of the way. Armsthrift is basically infinite regalia. Now avoid skills can be useful,but its kinda out shone by the breaker skills.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Also at the tag

STR, MAG, and LCK are the least important stats in the game

>_>

<_<

[Airship Canon]

Skill +2 is the most useless skill. Now that that's out of the way. Armsthrift is basically infinite regalia. Now avoid skills can be useful,but its kinda out shone by the breaker skills.

Skill +2 increases Sol or Luna activation rate by 2%

AT is deadweight.

[Scarlet]

Avo stacking is definitely very useful during the main storyline; myrmidon!Stahl, for instance, was basically invincible for most of the game (that was on Hard mode, though - Lunatic enemies are a lot more accurate). The higher enemy hit rates get, however, the less useful avo stacking becomes - you'll need more and more avoid-boosting skills to compensate for the increasingly higher hit rates, which will make your units a lot less flexible even if it works out at all. Lunatic lategame hit rates are a pain in the ass.

Sol is probably more cost-efficient in terms of skill slots needed. If you're serious about it, however, I don't see why it wouldn't work, especially if you have Limit Breaker.

Lucky Seven, Quick Burn, any random +10 avoid skill, any random breaker and Limit Breaker should work nicely against the weapon type you're breaking.

[Tables]

Except Breaker skills ARE avoid boost skills...

Armsthrift is only worthless in a postgame setting if you disregard the value of human time spent farming weapons.

Pretty much this. My time is too valuable wasting hours getting rare weapons like Aversa's Night.

Armsthrift is pretty worthless because the best weapons are the Brave / Celica's Gale / Waste weapons, all of which are buyable. It's a waste of a skill slot.

Also Aversa's Night. Nosferatanking is still useful. It's also useful during grinding, when you don't want to be constantly doing Golden Gaffe to rebuy weapons. And that's only postgame, Armsthrift is very good in main game, probably one of the top 10 skills: Available early, on a not uncommon class, letting you use limited valuable weapons or expensive forges more readily.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Top main game skills:

Veteran(what is better than a skill that defines a character?)

Discipline

Outdoor Fighter

Galeforce

Magic +2

Luna

DG+

Patience

Dual Strike+

Quick Burn

Tantivy

Lucky 7

Mov +1

Deliverer

Thats already WAY higher than 10, and still no armthrift

Lets not pretend that this game does not throw money on your face

Also, no Mercenary is a VERY rare class

Edited June 16, 2013 by I have a Dragon Boner

[Chiki]

I was talking about endgame challenges like Apeotheosis.

Nosferatanking is quite inferior to other strategies.

[Shadow Mir]

Except Breaker skills ARE avoid boost skills...

Pretty much this. My time is too valuable wasting hours getting rare weapons like Aversa's Night.

Also Aversa's Night. Nosferatanking is still useful. It's also useful during grinding, when you don't want to be constantly doing Golden Gaffe to rebuy weapons. And that's only postgame, Armsthrift is very good in main game, probably one of the top 10 skills: Available early, on a not uncommon class, letting you use limited valuable weapons or expensive forges more readily.

As to Armsthrift, most of the characters who get it aren't exactly known for good luck stats (the only ones I can see making good use of it are Donnel or a Luck Asset Avatar)...

Top main game skills:

Veteran

Discipline

Outdoor Fighter

Galeforce

Magic +2

Luna

DG+

Patience

Dual Strike+

Quick Burn

Tantivy

Lucky 7

Mov +1

Deliverer

Thats already WAY higher than 10, and still no armthrift

Lets not pretend that this game does not throw money on your face

Bolded are ones I have issues with.

As to avoid boosting skills, my feelings on them are a mixed bag.

Edited June 16, 2013 by Levant Fortner

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

DG+ massively increased your survivability. Admitably, the only character who can reasonably get it is Freddy, so it can go low

Tantivy is solid for a character who will go alone almost everytime. DeliCherche is a good example

[Randa]

Top main game skills:

Veteran(what is better than a skill that defines a character?)

Discipline

Outdoor Fighter

Galeforce

Magic +2

Luna

DG+

Patience

Dual Strike+

Quick Burn

Tantivy

Lucky 7

Mov +1

Deliverer

Thats already WAY higher than 10, and still no armthrift

Lets not pretend that this game does not throw money on your face

Also, no Mercenary is a VERY rare class

How are any of these better than Sol or Astra.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Outdoor Fighter: Alvailability. 3 of your units have this by default, 2 of your units want to reclass into the class that have this and it is active 80% of the time, at worst

Magic +2: Rescue Range

Patience: Practically the same as ODF

Tantivy: Almost the same as Patience

Astra: Skill that increase offense with low proc are not that good in main game

Sol: I forgot about this one

[Airship Canon]

AT is deadweight in the post game, and in game, it's also deadwieght as Gregor doesn't have LCK, and Donnel doesn't exist in any difficulty above Hard, also Second Seal. Severa doesn't exist until post game either, neither does Inigo.

MU might be able to get some in game use, but there's much better reclasses for MU, and EXP is a bit more of a limited resource, not to mention Second Seals are rather rare until Ch16.

Edited June 16, 2013 by Airship Canon

[Shadow Mir]

DG+ massively increased your survivability. Admitably, the only character who can reasonably get it is Freddy, so it can go low

Tantivy is solid for a character who will go alone almost everytime. DeliCherche is a good example

And DG+ is on a class I'd generally mind an extended stay in (Great Knight's a "get Luna and get out" class for me).

As for Tantivy, the bonus isn't worth it when dual support replicates its effects and is more reasonable.

Edited June 16, 2013 by Levant Fortner

[Randa]

AT is deadweight in the post game, and in game, it's also deadwieght as Gregor doesn't have LCK, and Donnel doesn't exist in any difficulty above Hard, also Second Seal. Severa doesn't exist until post game either, neither does Inigo.

MU might be able to get some in game use, but there's much better reclasses for MU, and EXP is a bit more of a limited resource, not to mention Second Seals are rather rare until Ch16.

So to prove that it's useless in the post game you give examples go in game use. Armsthrift is very useful. If you want to spend hours on infinite regalia to get one legendary weapon be my guest, for example need a forsetti to help with Apotheosis mine never ran out, but feel free to go searching for your new one.

Back to the original question I feel that if you have the time to collect all five of the breaker skills or four and limit breaker you are about as well off as you can be.

[Florete]

You know, it's so very tempting to rip into anyone who thinks Armsthrift is somehow "deadweight," but guess what, people? This is not an Armsthrift topic. So stop debating it.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Lon'qu

SB

LB

L7

LBro

Quickburn

Ehhh >_>

[Scarlet]

In fact, let's go all out, shall we?

I will not factor in rally skills, as we want our build to be independent of other unit pairs. (You could also stack tons of demoiselle if you feel like it.)

Consider Morgan for simplicity (to guarantee we can get all the skills we want), as well as Lucina with Female avatar (+Spd, -Skl) as her mother. Morgan and Lucina must have at least a B support.

Swordmaster!Morgan's skills:

- Lucky Seven (+20 Avo)

- Quick Burn (+15 Avo... ...during the first turn, at least)

- Avoid +10 (+10 Avo. Prescience would be more effective in theory, but most of the action happens in Enemy Phase, so...)

- Any Breaker (+50 Avo)

- Limit Break (Doesn't add Avo by itself, but increases the stat caps, which results in +20 Avo indirectly)

Swordmaster!Lucina's skills

- Charm (+5 Avo)

- Demoiselle (+10 Avo)

- Dual Support+ (+15 Avo from support)

(Two other skills. Pick what you like)

Swordmaster!Morgan's stats:

- 62 Spd (93 Avo)

- 59 Luck (29 Avo)

Boni from Lucina:

- 10 Spd (15 Avo)

- 8 Luck (4 Avo)

This would result in... ...266 avoid against the weapon type you're breaking, without terrain, weapon triangle or rallies factored in, if I didn't screw up my math. I don't think even Lunatic lategame enemies could plausibly hit this.

[Tables]

In fact, let's go all out, shall we?

I will not factor in rally skills, as we want our build to be independent of other unit pairs. (You could also stack tons of demoiselle if you feel like it.)

Consider Morgan for simplicity (to guarantee we can get all the skills we want), as well as Lucina with Female avatar (+Spd, -Skl) as her mother. Morgan and Lucina must have at least a B support.

Swordmaster!Morgan's skills:

- Lucky Seven (+20 Avo)

- Quick Burn (+15 Avo... ...during the first turn, at least)

- Avoid +10 (+10 Avo. Prescience would be more effective in theory, but most of the action happens in Enemy Phase, so...)

- Any Breaker (+50 Avo)

- Limit Break (Doesn't add Avo by itself, but increases the stat caps, which results in +20 Avo indirectly)

Swordmaster!Lucina's skills

- Charm (+5 Avo)

- Demoiselle (+10 Avo)

- Dual Support+ (+15 Avo from support)

(Two other skills. Pick what you like)

Swordmaster!Morgan's stats:

- 62 Spd (93 Avo)

- 59 Luck (29 Avo)

Boni from Lucina:

- 10 Spd (15 Avo)

- 8 Luck (4 Avo)

This would result in... ...266 avoid against the weapon type you're breaking, without terrain, weapon triangle or rallies factored in, if I didn't screw up my math. I don't think even Lunatic lategame enemies could plausibly hit this.

Aww yeah, that's what I'm talking about. And Morgan is very trainable - in game he won't reach max stats or be able to get all of those skills, but he'd be able to get Lucky Seven and probably one other, and inherit one or two, which is pretty sweet. Note you'd need A Lucina to get the higher boost, not B, but eh.

So maybe Armsthrift isn't a top 10 skill in game... it's still always been useful for me. Although maybe that's because I like training Donnel, which would definitely bias me given his luck... hmm. Certainly far from useless, mind. Even Gregor for instance has 8 base and a 45% growth, which is about 20% more uses of weapons at base, growing quickly.