Do Jeigans suck overall?

[Anacybele]

I agree with those who say it varies by game. I've not played much of Shadow Dragon, but according to what I've read, Jagen himself is just terrible. Marcus in FE7 is decent, but not anything special. Titania is great (though I still find Oscar and Kieran to be better. But Geoffrey and Makalov are worse. Far worse. Astrid is alright, but not as good either), Seth is beastly, and Frederick can turn into a beast too thanks to Awakening's reclass system and Limit Breaker skill.

So overall, no, Jagens don't suck at all. Many are required for the hardest game modes too, as people say.

FE7!Marcus is good for a while until Sain promotes, and then he's just useless.

This too. Totally. Sain is monstrous.

[MacLovin]

Marcus isn't useless, he just rapes the game too hard.

[Doga]

I agree with those who say it varies by game. I've not played much of Shadow Dragon, but according to what I've read, Jagen himself is just terrible. Marcus in FE7 is decent, but not anything special. Titania is great (though I still find Oscar and Kieran to be better. But Geoffrey and Makalov are worse. Far worse. Astrid is alright, but not as good either), Seth is beastly, and Frederick can turn into a beast too thanks to Awakening's reclass system and Limit Breaker skill.

So overall, no, Jagens don't suck at all. Many are required for the hardest game modes too, as people say.

This too. Totally. Sain is monstrous.

How is Makalov worse than Astrid if he doesn't have horrific bow-lock?

[ZemZem]

How is Makalov worse than Astrid if he doesn't have horrific bow-lock?

Astrid has Paragon/Elite. And BEXP access, anyway.

Makalov...has no redeeming qualities. He's good, but he doesn't really provide anything to the table.

[dondon151]

FE7!Marcus is good for a while until Sain promotes, and then he's just useless.

base marcus ties 10/1 sain in str and spd and has a huge skl lead. he also has higher weapon ranks in everything.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Marcus allow me to get Dracoshield!

[eclipse]

Jagen in FE11 has Silver Lance access, which makes him pretty clutch early on. As well as the best bases out of everyone in the group. He can also reclass to Dracoknight and be useful with a Ridersbane forever. Of course, he does fall off statistically though. But it's not as soon as some people say.

He gets 1-2 range, and if Abel can't let go of his precious Javelin, there's a store that sells them in Chapter 1. He also gets instant access to Ogma's Steel Sword, which helps me through the hell that is Chapter 2 Draft Style. IIRC, he avoids being insta-gibbed by the Chapter 3 boss at base, at least up to H2 (not sure if it holds true on H3, and pretty sure it doesn't hold true after that).

[Espinosa]

base marcus ties 10/1 sain in str and spd and has a huge skl lead. he also has higher weapon ranks in everything.

Sain can enter HHM at nearly 13/2 but yeah, an average Sain doesn't have a big advantage over Marcus at all and has trouble connecting attacks (notably 1-2 range and bosskilling).

[PKL]

Makalov is the worst cavalier imo. Astrid gets going so fast, it's not even funny.

@ Eclipse- yeah, I forgot to say he has Steel Sword access. He's amazing <3

@ Sain- yeah, he depends a lot on Lyn Mode. He's pretty bad if you don't play Lyn Mode. Otherwise, he could be like Marcus when he rejoins in HHM. I find his 1-2 range weaponry in EP very annoying though since he just loves missing at least 2-3 times in very EP heavy areas.

[Anouleth]

Astrid has Paragon/Elite. And BEXP access, anyway.

Makalov...has no redeeming qualities. He's good, but he doesn't really provide anything to the table.

Makalov has probably the best raw stats of all the Paladins in FE9. That's his "thing", although it doesn't really make up for his poor jointime and mediocre bases. Astrid, for example, is probably a little bit worse later on because she needs to maintain a pretty big level lead on him just to keep par, but because she can promote earlier, she's overall better. Astrid also doesn't cost turns to recruit, which is significant in drafts.

[Espinosa]

None of the Paladins in FE9 are bad in any possible universe, though Geoffrey could use extra availability and Makalov/Astrid want the BEXP you could be saving for your fliers and siege users, since everything Paladins can do fliers can do better.

[Djeets]

I don't really used Jeigans even in the Prologue chaps in the 1st place,,

still, they are nice for making enemy dying for Weak units to get exp's...

On The other hand at early Lunatic+...

Edited July 1, 2013 by Pukuriripo

[PKL]

My sister's first playthrough of FE9 had lots of usage of Titania. Though I noticed her FE13 file has a Level 1 Frederick ;_;. I guess she came to hate Jagens eventually, I haven't asked.

[arvilino]

FE7!Marcus is good for a while until Sain promotes, and then he's just useless.

While promoted Sain is going to be better, Marcus being worse than promoted Sain doesn't make him useless. Being weaker than one of the best characters doesn't make a character useless because there's still approx 10 or so unit slots per chapter and a whole lot of other characters who Marcus is overall better than.

Basically I'd say a Jeigan is normally only useless once there are more units better than him or her than there are spaces available for fielding units, or if they aren't needed(e.g. for a LTC) during a chapter.

Edited July 1, 2013 by arvilino

[shadykid]

My sister's first playthrough of FE9 had lots of usage of Titania. Though I noticed her FE13 file has a Level 1 Frederick ;_;. I guess she came to hate Jagens eventually, I haven't asked.

what if she reclassed Frederick back to Great Knight after hitting level 20

Edited July 2, 2013 by shadykid

[Anacybele]

Yeah, she might've done what I did and sent Freddy back to lv. 1 Great Knight with a Second Seal.

[PKL]

Nah, he's at base with like 20 exp. :(

[CT075]

FE7!Marcus is good for a while until Sain promotes, and then he's just useless.

you are bad at this game if one character being marginally better (and the difference in this case is incredibly minor) makes another useless

[Anacybele]

Nah, he's at base with like 20 exp. :(

Oh. Well. that stinks. :(

[Snowy_One]

'Balancing' Jeigans wouldn't be too hard on the whole. Here is what I would suggest.

1) Make them not be paladins. Make them be foot soldiers.

That's step one. This way they won't have curbstomping movement to be useful, especially with rescue-drops.

2) Give them some negative growths.

Feel free to off-set it with some positive growths, but not only would a negative growth send the message to first timers to not rely on them, it allows for high base-stats that won't translate into endgame OP'edness.

3) Cap their level.

Even if you give them 20/20 stats, players will realize that they shouldn't be using the unit as it's an EXP waste (literally). If the game uses items to promote, level 20 unpromoted works too (as opposed to 20/1).

[Jaybee]

... Snowy, what's the main purpose of video games?

Also the only case where I could see a 'bad' Jeigan is FE5 Eyvel, if you've never played the game before and end up relying on her because you have no idea what to do. In every other PT (excluding challenges or whatever) they can at least meatshield and weaken if you don't want to use them long-term.

[Anacybele]

1) Make them not be paladins. Make them be foot soldiers.

No. The Jagens are generally the veteran loyal knight to their respective lords. Paladin, or in Frederick's case, Great Knight, make total sense for them.

2) Give them some negative growths.

Some already do have bad growths. Frederick's res is terrible and so's his magic, for example. And people already talked about Jagen himself.

3) Cap their level.

Even if you give them 20/20 stats, players will realize that they shouldn't be using the unit as it's an EXP waste (literally). If the game uses items to promote, level 20 unpromoted works too (as opposed to 20/1).

Again, I disagree. Like I said, the Jagens are meant to be veteran fighters, so leaving them unpromoted wouldn't make sense. Capping their level would make them outright useless until Endgame since people would be inclined to avoid using them for the sake of giving exp to other units.

Edited July 2, 2013 by Anacybele

[Rehab]

Maybe the relatively high-level, pre-promoted unit (if the future games even decide to continue having them) can just not be "a Jeigan," then.

In Snowy's defense, the word used was "balancing," not "making more fun"

I interpret Jeigans as simply one tool of many, personally. If the game doesn't want players to use them, the simplest answers I can think of are 'don't give the player one => see what happens," and "warn the player that there'll be (at least arguably) negative narrative/gameplay consequences for using them. Like, have them be losing their mind/otherwise be in failing health and advised to sit out but remain too stubborn to do so until they see somebody else can do their job, or have recruitment opportunities hinge on them having been used to a certain point (and warn about it ahead of time, of course), or have any number of other possible complications.

As far as gameplay goes, I'm of the opinion that they're a good tool for the purposes of many players, but as long as I can get along okay without them, they're barely on my radar, unless I have a reason to want to use them for my subjective purposes. I don't think anything urgently needs to be done about them, given "single-player game yadda yadda" and shit, though it's always nice when the results they achieve can be matched by other means, hard though that may be to design thanks to the nature of raising multiple units generally being harder than raising one in the series (at least without other variables mixed around).

Edited July 2, 2013 by Rehab

[The Void]

No. The Jagens are generally the veteran loyal knight to their respective lords. Paladin, or in Frederick's case, Great Knight, make total sense for them.

A Sniper can't be a veteran knight?

[Othin]

Honestly, I don't see a design problem with the ones that do level off properly, like Jagen, FE6 Marcus, and arguably Frederick. Valuable in earlygame, but they actually fall behind in a reasonable period of time, unlike the ones in FE7-10.