Do Jeigans suck overall?

[Espinosa]

Nidoqueen = Titania

Or Clefable. lol.

[The Void]

Honestly, I really am down with what Anouleth said about getting rid of Jagen characters.

I'm sure a game could be made that you could get by even on the Lunatic modes (if there are any) if there wasn't any sort of Jagen character.

[PKL]

The Jeigan archetype will never be gone, realistically. I don't see IS getting rid of this "tradition"

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

How can you consider Jagen a bad unit in any game featuring him.

Jagen is old and senile, so no matter how bad you are, he is not afraid to challenge their claims of being terrible and will not lose on that note

Edited June 30, 2013 by I have a Dragon Boner

[Chiki]

They shouldn't be gotten rid of. It's your choice if you want to use them or not. Players worse than us will need them--it's necessary to have Jeigans around.

Besides, any mode except Lunatic+ FE13 can be done without the Jeigan.

[Anouleth]

They shouldn't be gotten rid of. It's your choice if you want to use them or not. Players worse than us will need them--it's necessary to have Jeigans around.

Except that players worse than us routinely go out of their way to avoid using Jeigans. The problem with Jeigans is that they're so binary. Half the fanbase hates them, half the fanbase feels forced to use them because they're so good. Many Jeigans can practically solo their respective games. What's probably worst is the distortionary effects they have on chapter difficulty. Chapters like 1-3 in FE10, Chapter 2 in FE13, or Chapter 4 in FE6 are just too hard. And the reason these chapters are too hard is because they're balanced with the knowledge that you have a Jeigan in mind. These chapters have to be that difficult because of Frederick, because of Sothe, because of Marcus, which practically forces the player to use those characters. No doubt, it is possible to beat those chapters otherwise, but the use or disuse of one unit should not have such a dramatic effect in the game. Jeigans are just impossible to balance and I don't think they have a positive impact on the game.

I don't think Snowy's comparison of Titania to a level 100 Mewtwo is quite accurate, though. It's more like starting the game with a level 40 Butterfree.

[Chiki]

Except that players worse than us routinely go out of their way to avoid using Jeigans.

First time players and such definitely need them. I know I did when I was younger. Fire Emblem games aren't pushovers.

Jeigans can be balanced--just lower their bases.

Edited June 30, 2013 by Chiki

[shadykid]

should be Seth=lvl 50 Garchomp

Except that players worse than us routinely go out of their way to avoid using Jeigans.

not necessarily, a lot of players "fall for" using Jeigans before people tell them "OMG Jeigans are terrible EXP hogs!!!!"

[Redwall]

Jagens are good, but I don't necessarily like the distortionary effect they have on balance (cf. FE13 Chapter 2). One advantage of Jagens that hasn't been explicitly mentioned is the fact that they allow for the team some robustness in terms of growths; most notably in the earlygame, important units have more of a chance of getting screwed out of good growths due to the small number of levels gained, but the Jagens are there to pick up the slack, and by the time the midgame rolls around, the number of levels gained by the growth units should give the player a much better chance at having serviceable units.

Imposing fixed growths would be one way of nullifying this. The problem of balance remains, but teamwork-heavy games like FE12 H3 show there are reasonably clean ways of limiting the influence of any one character, be it an Avatar-like character who is good throughout the game or an Arran who is good for only four chapters. At no point in H3 does Arran or Sirius curbstomp an entire level essentially by themselves due to their low defenses, whereas the high emphasis on the enemy phase in FE13 allows for a +Def Avatar or a Frederick to clear out the majority of the map with a decent Pair Up.

PS why do we still write Jeigan when the official Shadow Dragon translation says Jagen ?_?

[shadykid]

PS why do we still write Jeigan when the official Shadow Dragon translation says Jagen ?_?

probably out of habit

I dunno

[Chiki]

Here's another way of balancing them: take away their Silver Lance. That alone would be great, combined with reducing their bases.

PS why do we still write Jeigan when the official Shadow Dragon translation says Jagen ?_?

Same reason why people don't want to call Sety "Ced."

Edited June 30, 2013 by Chiki

[PKL]

But then you get a worse "insert growth cavalier here".

[Sublime Manic]

Yes, they do. They start out overpowered and never really become bad. In a game that is supposed to be about raising your team up, they utterly curbstomp everything. I define that as 'suck'. It's like starting a game of Pokemon with a 100 Mewtwo. It robs investments in other mons of any meaning.

Why is the game about raising a team as opposed to just completing the game? What's meant by 'suck' is important to this discussion, though, since people who claim they suck are doing so on the grounds that they're so good that it's bad.

Of course not.

Jagen in FE11 has Silver Lance access, which makes him pretty clutch early on. As well as the best bases out of everyone in the group. He can also reclass to Dracoknight and be useful with a Ridersbane forever. Of course, he does fall off statistically though. But it's not as soon as some people say.

This. SO much. And if the original Jagen is doing this much and he's considered one of the worse ones, just about everyone else is doing useful things too. I remember when I first played FE11 I thought he looked terrible but after doing a draft that forced me to use him I realized he's definitely usable for a substantial amount of time; you just have to actually USE him.

First time players and such definitely need them. I know I did when I was younger. Fire Emblem games aren't pushovers.

Jeigans can be balanced--just lower their bases.

I think that depends on what game/level of difficulty someone starts with. I didn't use Marcus much if at all my first time through, and went through the "they're exp hogs: do not touch" phase early on. But plenty of first-time players wouldn't need them.

[shadykid]

Yes, they do. They start out overpowered and never really become bad. In a game that is supposed to be about raising your team up, they utterly curbstomp everything. I define that as 'suck'. It's like starting a game of Pokemon with a 100 Mewtwo. It robs investments in other mons of any meaning.

so now he admits Titania is awesome

[Chiki]

Did you see the "first FE playthrough" thread? Most people do horribly on their first playthroughs. I introduced someone I know to FE and she needed Marcus too.

I was like 10 when I first played FE, and I'm sure I needed Marcus back then.

Edited June 30, 2013 by Chiki

[shadykid]

Did you see the "first FE playthrough" thread? Most people do horribly on their first playthroughs. I introduced someone I know to FE and she needed Marcus too.

I was like 10 when I first played FE, and I'm sure I needed Marcus back then.

to go further with this, it seems like people go from

1. complete newbies, need the Jeigan

2. OMG EXP HOG STAY AWAY

3. oh hey these dudes are broken, use them at least in the short term

(new page again? seriously....)

Edited June 30, 2013 by shadykid

[Espinosa]

Doesn't change the fact that once people have the experience of having played an FE game and observing a Jeigan character falling short / going to the internet to be warned about it / checking out growths on a database like ours, they will most likely make the decision that Jeigans aren't to be touched with a ten-foot pole.

That said, where's our preliminary semantic discussion to this thread? Do Jeigans suck what? The topic title is too ambiguous.

[shadykid]

Doesn't change the fact that once people have the experience of having played an FE game and observing a Jeigan character falling short / going to the internet to be warned about it / checking out growths on a database like ours, they will most likely make the decision that Jeigans aren't to be touched with a ten-foot pole.

That said, where's our preliminary semantic discussion to this thread? Do Jeigans suck what? The topic title is too ambiguous.

and then they read more and realize they're good again

just like when they started

[Mighty Kamina]

Jeigans are cool. I personally limit my use of them as I like building my own team but I definitely keep them around as filler in the mid game (unless I have a full team by then) or as a panic button in the early game. (Unless your talking FE13 Lunatic because for me Frederick is vital until I do paralogue 1 to get my chracters exp). Even some of the lower growth Jeigans are usable until late game. (Dagdar doesn't fall off until chapter 24x of FE5 for example)

Plus they help ease newcomers into the game.

Edited June 30, 2013 by Kamina

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Back when I was 12, and started playing Fire Emblem.....

I used to think that every Cavalier is a Jeigan because they are way too good to be true

So, I benched Lowen, Kent, and Sain immediately

[Espinosa]

and then they read more and realize they're good again

just like when they started

Depends on what they're reading. If it's this forum, then very likely so but not necessarily - apparently you can post for years here and restate the claims that people are completely sick of arguing against over and over again.

[PKL]

Depends on what they're reading. If it's this forum, then very likely so but not necessarily - apparently you can post for years here and restate the claims that people are completely sick of arguing against over and over again.

Geez, I wonder who you're talking about? :p

[Sublime Manic]

Did you see the "first FE playthrough" thread? Most people do horribly on their first playthroughs. I introduced someone I know to FE and she needed Marcus too.

I was like 10 when I first played FE, and I'm sure I needed Marcus back then.

I hadn't actually looked into that thread until you mentioned it now, no. But after going through it, there were other people who didn't need the Jeigan from whatever game they started with. It's largely circumstantial.

I was 13 or 14 when I first played FE, and got it from a friend who warned me not to use Marcus and about permadeath (and we thought Nino was amazing). I'm sure plenty of people were introduced at a later age and/or one way or another had it suggested to them not to use the Jeigans.

[Caliban of Sycorax]

I don't consider Seth and FE9!Titania Jeigans because their stats are consistently decent throughout a majority of the game. Seth is actually useable in endgame and Titania at least has an amazing support list.

FE7!Marcus is good for a while until Sain promotes, and then he's just useless.

FE6!Marcus isn't really worth it because Alance is just that good, also because Zealot joins in Chapter 7. Marcus is nice to have until then, though.

FE10!Sothe is really only worth it because he's required, but he does make excellent use of Beast Killers.

[dondon151]

marcus should be slightly better than zealot on average by the time zealot shows up

most of this is because he has a much higher skl base