Do Jeigans suck overall?

[Anacybele]

A Sniper can't be a veteran knight?

They can be a veteran, but not a knight. They're Snipers, not knights. General could work though, I suppose. Especially considering it's one of Frederick's reclass options.

Edited July 2, 2013 by Anacybele

[The Void]

You know that a knight doesn't have ride a horse, right?

Edited July 2, 2013 by The Void

[Zerker]

Jeigans have their place.

Which is to weaken enemy units so other units can finish them off and gain exp safely.

So no, they do not suck.

[Anacybele]

You know that a knight doesn't have ride a horse, right?

Duh. The actual Knight class is mountless. That's why I said General would work too.

[The Void]

So what's the problem with the Jagen character being a Sniper?

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

A Sniper Jagen is actually a solid idea

[Espinosa]

If you absolutely insist on the Jeigan riding a horse as a Paladin, they could always a Bow Paladin like those in FE4-5&9-10. A secondary weapon type in lance/axe would probably make the players ignore the bows entirely in most combat situations but if they get a Silver Bow as the strongest weapon around and it enables efficient bosskilling then there you have it, a Jeigan who uses bows.

[Anacybele]

I only insist that the Jagen be either a General, Paladin, or Great Knight if the lord is a noble or royal. If not, then they can be anything really. Which is why Sothe, a Rogue of all things, was the Jagen in RD. Micaiah was a commoner in the beginning, so yeah. And why I didn't use a character of any of those classes for the Jagen in my fic (the lord character is a common mercenary like Ike in this case).

Edited July 2, 2013 by Anacybele

[Espinosa]

If we assume that Ike is RD's Lord, then the "Jeigan" of the game is the same one as in the preceding entry to the series. The "Jeigans" of RD are very difficult to count otherwise.

[The Void]

You think noblemen and women in our world never had veteran knights who fought on foot with bows?

[Dark Sage]

Jeorge is a knight in the story and he's a Sniper. Same with Wolf and Sedgar, except they're Horsemen instead of Snipers.

So yeah. You can totally have a Sniper Jeigan who's still a knight in the story.

[bottlegnomes]

I still don't see the issue with story class =/= gameplay class. Garcia was a general for Renais, which would imply his being a knight. His class doesn't reflect that by any means.

As for balancing Jagens, paladin can work, as in FE6, FE11 if you made effective weapons less broken, and 12. Enemy stats just need to be good enough that growths actually matter.

[Espinosa]

Wasn't Garcia retired though? Or I could be getting some support conversations confused with somebody else's.

That said, I do understand why people would expect the Jeigan to ride a horse and have access to a Silver Lance (though Titania has to work towards the latter in FE9 and never wields lances in the successor) - it's too deeply ingrained at this point.

[bottlegnomes]

He is, but I seriously doubt he went paladin -> fighter just from retiring, especially since, IIRC, Seth says Garcia's just as good as he was when he was a general.

He could have pulled a Bord and become a wood cutter which would explain being a fighter, though.

Edited July 2, 2013 by bottlegnomes

[Doga]

I want another Warrior Jeigan. Maybe not Dagda levels of useful, but I like sniping assholes as a Bow-Warrior.

[Snowy_One]

No. The Jagens are generally the veteran loyal knight to their respective lords. Paladin, or in Frederick's case, Great Knight, make total sense for them.

Some already do have bad growths. Frederick's res is terrible and so's his magic, for example. And people already talked about Jagen himself.

Again, I disagree. Like I said, the Jagens are meant to be veteran fighters, so leaving them unpromoted wouldn't make sense. Capping their level would make them outright useless until Endgame since people would be inclined to avoid using them for the sake of giving exp to other units.

1) Why? Are knights the only people who can be both loyal and experienced? Why can't a sage, sniper, general, or any other class be loyal to their lord?

2) Then make them worse. Jiegans shouldn't be gamebreakers if at all possible.

3) So... people would avoid using them unless they absolutely had to? Sounds like you're saying 'we shouldn't do this because it balance out'. Without even trying I can think of better arguments. Like 'if they have 20/20 stats, won't people just bash through the game with them instead of avoiding them? Exp be damned?'

[Narga_Rocks]

1) Why? Are knights the only people who can be both loyal and experienced? Why can't a sage, sniper, general, or any other class be loyal to their lord?

2) Then make them worse. Jiegans shouldn't be gamebreakers if at all possible.

3) So... people would avoid using them unless they absolutely had to? Sounds like you're saying 'we shouldn't do this because it balance out'. Without even trying I can think of better arguments. Like 'if they have 20/20 stats, won't people just bash through the game with them instead of avoiding them? Exp be damned?'

I like the loyal knight from a concept standpoint. They go together. That's not to say it's an "if and only if", as in a sniper can be loyal and all, but "loyal knight" just has a thing to it that other classes don't have. At least for me.

Marcus fe6 wasn't, though. Personally I love gamebreakers, though, because I want them to rock the game in low turns. Consider that all the scrubs with mega growths will rock the game after you grind them. Why should those units be allowed to break the game but not jeigans? How's that for balance?

Um, how do you get "not using at all" = "balanced"? Your argument there is that if people wouldn't use them it's somehow balanced? Am I misunderstanding something? I think that's the opposite of balance, a unit that nobody wants to use. Now, for me, though, if they had endgame worthy stats at the start of the game, I'd obviously use them throughout. Obviously it would have to be balanced use if they can't solo the game in a reasonable time. Rout chapters need multiple units and all, but I'd definitely boss-rush with them on the early chapters provided it's like fe8 where there's units like Duessel and Gerik and co. who can get enough exp or have enough stats to be useful regardless.

[Sublime Manic]

I only insist that the Jagen be either a General, Paladin, or Great Knight if the lord is a noble or royal. If not, then they can be anything really. Which is why Sothe, a Rogue of all things, was the Jagen in RD. Micaiah was a commoner in the beginning, so yeah. And why I didn't use a character of any of those classes for the Jagen in my fic (the lord character is a common mercenary like Ike in this case).

The class of the Jeigan is entirely arbitrary as to whether they're 'knighted' or not. There are plenty of "knights" in service to their lords and lieges in the series that aren't in the Knight or Cavalier class trees.

And consider Leaf, whose Jeigans included a Sniper-turned-Swordmastermaster surrogate mother and a former-bandit Warrior. Leaf's starting class is Lord and he's of royal blood. And this is well known as soon as the game starts; it isn't some revelation towards the end the end of the game. It's been done.

OR the unit you make in FE12, for that matter. Not the Jeigan, but they become one of Marth's personal bodyguards, which I'm pretty sure includes being knighted, and this character can start in all sorts of classes.

[Ϲharlie]

And consider Leaf, whose Jeigans included a Sniper-turned-Swordmastermaster surrogate mother and a former-bandit Warrior. Leaf's starting class is Lord and he's of royal blood. And this is well known as soon as the game starts; it isn't some revelation towards the end the end of the game. It's been done.

This is only correct if we are to assume that Eyvel and Dagda are actually the "Jeigans" of FE5. They're pre-promotes who join early, but that's about all they have in common with Jeigan. Finn on the other hand doesn't start out promoted, but his backstory and relationship with Leaf is almost a word for word retelling of Jeigan's backstory and relationship with Marth. I'd say that Finn probably has more in common with Jeigan than any other character in the series bar Marcus.

[Baldrick]

This is only correct if we are to assume that Eyvel and Dagda are actually the "Jeigans" of FE5. They're pre-promotes who join early, but that's about all they have in common with Jeigan. Finn on the other hand doesn't start out promoted, but his backstory and relationship with Leaf is almost a word for word retelling of Jeigan's backstory and relationship with Marth. I'd say that Finn probably has more in common with Jeigan than any other character in the series bar Marcus.

Finn is a storyline Jeigan archetype, Eyvel and Dadga are gameplay Jeigan archetypes. The term "Jeigan" usually refers to the latter since there's a lot more discussion about the gameplay than the plot.

Marcus fe6 wasn't, though. Personally I love gamebreakers, though, because I want them to rock the game in low turns. Consider that all the scrubs with mega growths will rock the game after you grind them. Why should those units be allowed to break the game but not jeigans? How's that for balance?

The original Jeigan is stronger than the enemies he faces, as opposed to Est who is much weaker and needs favouritism to survive, and his start is more gamebreaking than Est's lategame.

[Snowy_One]

I like the loyal knight from a concept standpoint. They go together. That's not to say it's an "if and only if", as in a sniper can be loyal and all, but "loyal knight" just has a thing to it that other classes don't have. At least for me.

Marcus fe6 wasn't, though. Personally I love gamebreakers, though, because I want them to rock the game in low turns. Consider that all the scrubs with mega growths will rock the game after you grind them. Why should those units be allowed to break the game but not jeigans? How's that for balance?

Um, how do you get "not using at all" = "balanced"? Your argument there is that if people wouldn't use them it's somehow balanced? Am I misunderstanding something? I think that's the opposite of balance, a unit that nobody wants to use. Now, for me, though, if they had endgame worthy stats at the start of the game, I'd obviously use them throughout. Obviously it would have to be balanced use if they can't solo the game in a reasonable time. Rout chapters need multiple units and all, but I'd definitely boss-rush with them on the early chapters provided it's like fe8 where there's units like Duessel and Gerik and co. who can get enough exp or have enough stats to be useful regardless.

The problem is that Jeigans end up starting off mega-strong and end up only slightly, if actually any, worse than their counterparts who started off far weaker and ended up only slightly stronger. As for why the units with mega-growths, the thing is they USUALLY start off underleveled and weak, meaning that it's an investment to get them to the point where they can break the game. This is especially true for the Est archtypes whom, if you can level them up, SHOULD be game breaking instead of 'above average' considering how much effort needs to be invested in them to usually raise them up. That a Jeigan, who joined the game already strong and can preform well even into the late game, is capable of surpassing them, possibly even outstatting them barring a massive BEXP/EXP dump, is a HUGE balance flaw.

And here's the thing. You would rush with them, but you go for LTC. Imagine, for a moment, turncounts were removed from the equation. Suddenly you have a choice between using a strong unit who has no choice but to waste EXP and who will end up being 'bad' come endgame, but can make an early-game chapter easy, or a unit who sucks now, but will have great payoffs later in the game.

IMO, a good rule of thumb for Jeigans is 'whatever is considered 'low' for a 20/20 character to have in a stat, a Jeigan should have one stat-up item less at 20/20'. That way they will never truly outshine their counterparts who had to work VERY hard to even get to that level, they can be outmatched without having to wait half-a-game to do so.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

This is only correct if we are to assume that Eyvel and Dagda are actually the "Jeigans" of FE5. They're pre-promotes who join early, but that's about all they have in common with Jeigan. Finn on the other hand doesn't start out promoted, but his backstory and relationship with Leaf is almost a word for word retelling of Jeigan's backstory and relationship with Marth. I'd say that Finn probably has more in common with Jeigan than any other character in the series bar Marcus.

Finn is kinda a mix of Jeigan and Astram

Also he actually falls down because he did not use Staff. Thankfully his daughter and Leaf waifu did

Totally a Jeigan

Edited July 3, 2013 by I have a Dragon Boner

[Sublime Manic]

This is only correct if we are to assume that Eyvel and Dagda are actually the "Jeigans" of FE5. They're pre-promotes who join early, but that's about all they have in common with Jeigan. Finn on the other hand doesn't start out promoted, but his backstory and relationship with Leaf is almost a word for word retelling of Jeigan's backstory and relationship with Marth. I'd say that Finn probably has more in common with Jeigan than any other character in the series bar Marcus.

Perhaps, just from a story perspective, that is all Dagda has in common with Jeigan, but you're selling Eyvel short by saying that of her. She serves as a guiding and even parental figure to Leaf, too. Her value disappears more similarly to the original Jeigan than Finn, as well, since she literally disappears. Her and Dagda also have the growths to claim to be Jeigans; moreso when compared to Finn.

I've never actually seen someone call Finn the "Jeigan" of FE5 before. It's an interesting angle to take, but Eyvel and Dagda are the ones seen by most people as the Jeigans of the game, and it is for gameplay reasons.

[Narga_Rocks]

The problem is that Jeigans end up starting off mega-strong and end up only slightly, if actually any, worse than their counterparts who started off far weaker and ended up only slightly stronger. As for why the units with mega-growths, the thing is they USUALLY start off underleveled and weak, meaning that it's an investment to get them to the point where they can break the game. This is especially true for the Est archtypes whom, if you can level them up, SHOULD be game breaking instead of 'above average' considering how much effort needs to be invested in them to usually raise them up. That a Jeigan, who joined the game already strong and can preform well even into the late game, is capable of surpassing them, possibly even outstatting them barring a massive BEXP/EXP dump, is a HUGE balance flaw.

And here's the thing. You would rush with them, but you go for LTC. Imagine, for a moment, turncounts were removed from the equation. Suddenly you have a choice between using a strong unit who has no choice but to waste EXP and who will end up being 'bad' come endgame, but can make an early-game chapter easy, or a unit who sucks now, but will have great payoffs later in the game.

IMO, a good rule of thumb for Jeigans is 'whatever is considered 'low' for a 20/20 character to have in a stat, a Jeigan should have one stat-up item less at 20/20'. That way they will never truly outshine their counterparts who had to work VERY hard to even get to that level, they can be outmatched without having to wait half-a-game to do so.

I'd still use him/her because turncounts only matter if I give them meaning. You take away turncounts (like some of the srpgs I've played) and you still have two extremes, Olwen or turtling. I'm on the left side of the middle. Not sure how far I am, but I'm on the left, you are on the right. Taking out that incrementing number won't change this fact, and if using this jeigan who ends up 2 to 3 points lower in each stat at the end of the game but helps out at the beginning while still allowing me to build 4 to 8 units depending on the game to be buttkickers, why would I ever want to turtle at the beginning just to get 6 to 10 or 7 to 11 buttkickers instead?

You are happy on the right side of the spectrum, turncounts be damned, and I'm happy on the left side of the spectrum, the lack of turncounts also be damned. For example, Shining Force 2. I've played that, it doesn't tell me my turncount, but it has turns which "end" and then "begin" and each unit between begin and end gets a turn. I've also played games that have a variable number of turns for each unit. In other words, initiative or some other stat gives them more turns or fewer turns, but there is still a "feel" to the speed at which I am playing game-time. If I can have units A, B, C, and D finish the map while taking 10, 8, 7, 8 turns and the enemies, say, 6 each, I "feel" like it's going quicker than if my units take 14, 11, 12, 11 turns and the enemies take 10 each. There is no "turncount", but my brain has an internal clock, if you will, and it has a subjective perspective of the objective value known as "turns" where it is happiest in a certain range. My range is different from yours.

I think your brain is just happier when you take longer. That's the only thing I can think of for why you wouldn't use a maxed out character if it made things work better the whole game. Or at least until the others catch up and you can drop him. If each map you can deploy 12 units, you don't have to. You can use jeigan + 11 guys, and when jeigan is no longer useful, just use 11. Or maybe a Percival will show up and you can get back to 12. You don't have to train 12 guys from zero to hero if you don't want to. So what's the motivation for not using the maxed character? You like going slowly. Or you like seeing pretty green numbers on more units. It's not a smoothness or anything. The game with a maxed out character at the start who sucks after 3/4 of the game is done will almost certainly go smoother for you if you use him at the beginnning. Therefore I use him. Use all the tools you have to make the game go smoother. Not using this jeigan is like not using statboosters or supports or silver weapons or whatever. You are imposing artificial challenge on the game to make it harder. I'm cool with that, for the record, just want you to know what you are doing.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Perhaps, just from a story perspective, that is all Dagda has in common with Jeigan, but you're selling Eyvel short by saying that of her. She serves as a guiding and even parental figure to Leaf, too. Her value disappears more similarly to the original Jeigan than Finn, as well, since she literally disappears. Her and Dagda also have the growths to claim to be Jeigans; moreso when compared to Finn.

I've never actually seen someone call Finn the "Jeigan" of FE5 before. It's an interesting angle to take, but Eyvel and Dagda are the ones seen by most people as the Jeigans of the game, and it is for gameplay reasons.

FInn being the Jeigan is actually a pretty common stuff since he was effectively a Jeigan in FE4

>_>

Story wise, its relatively harder in Finn regards, because he is split into like.... 4 - 5 characters in FE5

Edited July 3, 2013 by I have a Dragon Boner