H4 195 turns

[fatgamecat]

Congrats. I don't think I did as much reliance on crits to cut turns, and I took on a lot of extra turns by grabbing all the items. You must have got pretty close to lowest possible turns for those conditions.

[PKL]

@ mjer- Pretty sure the H4 minimum is like 20 turns less.

Congrats OP. Didnt see you had finished.

[fatgamecat]

Yeah I was considering his run conditions like getting all recruits and no rainbow pot, etc. not the absolute min counts.

Edited October 22, 2013 by mjemirzian

[Redwall]

Thanks for the feedback, all.

The minimum raw TC for H3 is just over 160 (KoT got 165), and I can't imagine the minimum for H4 being much different; both cases would require way more rigging than I did in this run, the goal of which was to minimize (or at least come close to minimizing) the expected turn-count. To that end, I avoided rigging crits unless they occurred on the same turn as a save-point usage or on turn 1, which followed a "real" save anyway. I suppose my C23 clear was arguably worse than a no-Rescue/Again clear performed in six turns since the expected turn-count for my C23 clear was about six turns with one Rescue and one Again use, but eh.

[PKL]

KoT's is a bit outdated. The real minimum is like 155-160 from my calculations. But yeah, H4 shouldnt be too different aside from the prologue.

EDIT: And of course, if its a skip everything LTC playthrough, its a lot less turns than 160 because you can skip like 11 turns in Chapter 3, etc.

Edited September 5, 2013 by PKL

[fatgamecat]

Min turn count depends on the conditions. I suppose you could cut off a lot of turns reloading for 5% crits or w/e, but that's not enjoyable to me.

I can see Lunatic going by pretty quickly if you do everything possible to minimize counts outside of clock manipulation.

[PKL]

Cutting turns =/= crits.

[fatgamecat]

Uhh what?

"I suppose you could cut off a lot of turns reloading for 5% crits or w/e." This is an obvious and properly written English sentence is it not?

Edited September 6, 2013 by mjemirzian

[Redwall]

I think he means that most of the turns that would be saved in a ~160-turn full-recruitment playthrough would come less from crits and more from things like ninja dodges and rigged growths (to the tune of having a 23-Def Dracoknight by Chapter 4).

[commonguard]

Luke: He was OK; he needed a lot of favoritism due to being Spd-cursed (three Speedwings, three Arms Scrolls), and also because no one else could make a decent Horseman on my team. He wound up with the second-most kills on my team IIRC.

Linde: Not a great unit, with a lot less potential than Ryan (whom I was considering using), but she's on average going to be a bit more useful IMO since Ryan needs Speedwings (plural). I had to buy all three of the base Spirit Dusts for her to keep up, which was pretty bad since she was probably Mag-blessed, but on the flipside, no one else needed them, so the opportunity cost (7500 G) wasn't that bad. She nukes enemies very well with Levin Swords at the cost of cutting her Mag growth big time (and subsequently needing Spirit Dusts beyond the two or so freebies). She also saves a turn at high reliability in C15, something that Mallesia can't do without Speedwings. There's also the C11 Speedwing, which isn't otherwise obtainable within five turns without sacrificing more than one booster.

I've never actually used Ryan because... well he's an archer by default (basically I'm biased against archers, hunters and default bow users in general, except for Innes from FE8 - that guy was cool).

I have however used Linde and I have disagree and say that Linde has more potential than Ryan (at least with Rainbow Potion).

As you pointed out they both need statboosters with Linde needing Spirit Dusts rather than Speed Wings, which units like Palla, Luke, Sirius and possibly even Marth make much better use of. Linde needs a resource that goes to the designated Gharnef slayer (which is probably Linde if you are using her).

I'm quite confident that in efficient play it is possible to get Linde to Lvl 15/4 before C14 which I think is a pretty hard chapter to 5 turn because you probably wouldn't have the offense for it. She'll probably end up getting two levels as a SM so she'll lose 1 MAG on her average.

If you give her:

Capricorn

Scorpio (every other combat unit should have 22 SPD after Rainbow Potion anyways)

C11's Spirit Dust (pretty much hers by right of birth and blood because she's the Gharnef slayer)

Buy her another Spirit Dust from the base shop

Rainbow Potion usage

She can as a 15/4 Sage (with 2 levels as an SM), 1RKO Ice Dragons and 1HKO theives with Aura. She can also, depending on how many Nosferatu charges you want to use, tank and 1RKO the dark mages on the EP after healing someone who took out a dragon on PP. Sounds like the kind of offense that could clear C14 in 5 turns.

In C13, I think I had her kill the LHS Barbarian from range on turn 1 and set up a Wyrm turn 2 for Marth to kill on turn 3 and eventually had her cross the river to 1RKO that theif who pilfers the wyrmslayer. If you want to go a bit crazy and start investing in more spirit dusts and forge a +1 or 2 Mt levin sword she can 1RKO beserkers up to C21. She'll double as a SM for as long as doubling is permitted and not just some enemies, she also doubles the faster enemies like theives. How many units can say "I, as a Sword Master, can double theives"?

On the other hand we have Ryan who even as a Lvl 20/5 Sniper with the Rainbow Potion can't 1RKO Dragons, Fire or Ice. Sure he can 1-shot Wyrms but anyone can 1-shot Wyrms with a forge. I guess with a Rainbow Potion, 1 shot theives with Parthia but is it worth it? And again I've never actually used Ryan so I don't really know what he can contribute.

If we assume no Rainbow Potion Ryan is probably in even worse shape because the statboosters he wants (Speed Wings) are the same statboosters Palla, Sirius, and Luke want as well.

Granted I gave Linde 3 statboosters (Angelic Robe + 2 Spirit Dusts) and Ryan none, but I have no idea what boosters to even give him. And don't say Speed Wings. Without Linde, you have 4 Speed Wings available and Palla is probably calling dibs on 2 with Sirius claiming 1 or 2. Maybe even a pre-C21 Speed Wing for Marth. I've done a run on H4 where I got Marth to level 19 or 20 by the start of C15. In C10 he got the sniper kill (set up by Palla), and a beserker kill in 10x (set up by Linde and I think Horseman!Luke - Linde ended up being like a point or 2 shy of setting up the kill on her own with all magic shards). He also got both wyrm kills in C11, 3 Dragons in C12, a wyrm in C13 (set up by SM!Linde no less), and 2 Dragons in C14 (needed a +2 Mt wyrmslayer forge for these two). With a Speed wing he would have enough Speed to double Generals in 15 and 16 (the latter being more interesting). A +3Mt Armourslayer forge would also allow him to 1RKO said generals. Basically instead of having to rescue Marth into the throne room, you could instead dance marth after he kills the general, (rescue the geosphere theif killer instead), and have an additional combat unit to kill the Fortify Bishop (if you really want you can sell it for 1500 or forgo the purchase of a Physic and spam fortify instead of Physic). I'd much rather spend a speed wing on Marth and make a ~4k armourslayer forge so Marth can get some additional exp (about 3 unconsecutive arena battles worth) than give a wing to Ryan. Hard to justify giving Ryan Speed Wings considering what everyone else can do with them. (I know the forge sounds crazy but it allows Sirius and Marth to get more exp from certain chapters for instance, it allows Hero!Sirius to 1RKO the armscroll general in C8.)

Also, what sort of exp distribution are we talking about between Luke and Ryan. Curious because I'm thinking Ryan can outperform Luke in the prologue. Well, that's the vibe I was got from reading grandjackel's Lunatic MU choices thread. But then I have these thoughts in my mind saying, just look at those bases and then look at the speed growth, not even worth the attempt.

Edited September 6, 2013 by commonguard

[PKL]

That's a lot of sandbagging and stuff.

Let's see,

Ryan contributes immensely throughout the Prologue, being the only unit to allow recruitment of Ogma and Est without losing turns to the other alternatives. Which in turn saves turns in P8.

Potential to be a Horseman (possibly the best at this btw, in H2 warpskip he's guaranteed to be the best but Luke might be better in Lunatic, maybe)

Contributions out of the whazoo in Chapters out of the Prologue (Chapter 1, 2, 3 and then Linde and him are pretty much tied except for Horseman vs Sage later on, which Horseman clearly wins)

Supports more units, so he can cheese some chapters as Myrmidon/swordmaster to build sword rank while also saving turns.

There's 9 Speedwings in the game. 3 of them aren't before Chapter 21 so let's say 6. Units that want them 100% of the time:

Palla, Sirius (but screw this guy he's overrated and trash mid-longterm), no Growth Drop Marth

I count 3, let's say 4. So there's some room there for 1 more. Ch16 wing is not likely to be obtained so let's leave that one out.

I still count 1 remaining Wing.

Has options to fix his borderline spd in Rainbow Pot, Speedwing and Swordmaster/Sniper

Horseman is the best endgame class. Sure, Linde can be a nice Gharnef Killer, but heck, even H2 warpskip Etzel can pull that one off. And that is considerably much faster than Lunatic.

His personal bases aren't bad for a Level 1 unit that has all the availability in the world and worthwhile contributions:

2 HP 2 Str 0 Mag 1 Skl 0 Spd 3 Lck 1 Def 0 Res Bow D

comparing this to Rody and Luke:

Rody

2 HP 1 Str 0 Mag 3 Skl 0 Spd 5 Lck -1 Def 0 Res Sword E Lance D

Luke

2 HP 2 Str 0 Mag 3 Skl 1 Spd 4 Lck 0 Def 0 Res Sword D Lance E

Let's evaluate Linde:

Joins a whopping 10 chapters later than Ryan.

Gets OHKO'd without an immediate robe in her join chapter. That's already pretty bad. Her aura chip is considerably worse than Ryan's OHKOs/massive chip on Dracoknights.

Can Nosferatank later on in Chapter 15. Not a unique contribution because Malicia exists and it's entirely possible to have her ready to do it. But it's a nice thing going for her if you put up with her training.

Requires Shaver, which isn't even obtained, to do what Ryan does easier in the desert. I'm sure she also can't really OHKO wyverns even with a shaver unless it's forged.

Not unikely for her to be OHKO'd later on even with a robe with her amazing 40 hp and 5 def growths.

Ryan has the option to go Swordmaster in Ch12 with actual strength and use a Wyrmslayer to ORKO Fire Dragons or he can go Sniper if Wyverns are your target. Linde will struggle to do much of anything here with her low str as a swordmaster. And I'm pretty sure she can't do anything to wyverns or Fire Dragons. At best, she's going to be using Rescue or healing something. Which is replicable by...oh wait, that's replicable by any unit. Oh well.

Gharnef isn't such a threat that he needs a unit specifically trained for the job.

Her Aura only lasts 25 uses, while the Bow forge lasts more and there will come a time when Ryan won't need it.

She's better vs Ch5 snipers. Although deploying both is often beneficial in that map.

So, TL;DR:

Ryan has 10 chapters over Linde of actual contributions.

Ryan can cheese some of the game with some resources, Linde can't.

There's little demand for a Gharnef Killer.

There's a lot more demand for an actually good Bow user.

Linde has epic durability issues which limits her exp growth per chapter.

Ryan can get more early exp, has an easy level lead and can keep that lead.

Linde is better vs Chapter 5 snipers.

Linde can nosferatank Ch15.

Linde can Levin Sword as a Swordmaster. Ryan can Wyrmslayer and have actual combat as a Swordmaster.

Horseman>Linde in lategame and lategame can actually matter in this game unlike most FEs.

Ryan requires a Speedwing and Rainbow Pot (though pretty much the entire cast not named Palla, Catria and Caeda want Rainbow Pot uses and even they love to have some crack) to be great. Linde requires a Robe to survive her join chapter and then Spirit Dusts and likely, a Wing too to nosferatank Chapter 15. She's also very likely to want Rainbow Pot for that because of her bad mag but Rainbow Pot uses are fine with its 77 uses so that's ok.

Both are extremely screwable in certain stats. But, using Ryan and then dropping him costs almost nothing. While using Linde and dropping her can be more costly.

EDIT: Oh and about Marth, I had him at Level 21 in Chapter 17 H3 and I used Ryan over Linde. Just about anyone can set up kills for Marth, that's not a Linde only thing. It's more of a player thing.

I think Ryan wins this easily.

Edited September 6, 2013 by PKL

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

I thought Ryan is useful because Archer is unable to counter at 1 range >_>

[Redwall]

I can see Ryan being a bit better than Linde overall simply because of the Prologue stages and the earlygame up to Chapter 5 or so.

Because of his terrible Spd growth, Ryan makes a terrible endgame Horseman, though, compared to Luke (and possibly Rody). You need a Horseman with capped Spd in order to double the Chapter 22 boss; 28 Spd is required for the Mage Dragons in Ch. 23; 25 Spd before the Starsphere is needed to avoid getting doubled by Hardin; you need either 28 or 29 Spd to double the Sorcerors in Ch. 21 and the Snipers/Berserkers in 20x. Ryan's 50% Spd growth isn't borderline; it is just bad, plain and simple. At important Horseman-y points in my playthrough, my Spd-cursed Luke had been averaging just over 50% observed Spd growth--something that Ryan actually needs to get lucky to achieve, since he's never going to be in a class with above 50% Spd growth and since he's only going to be above average in a given stat half the time--and still needed three Speedwings. You can't assume that everyone's going to be at or above their average every time since it's only going to happen about half the time, nor can you hand-wave that away by saying that someone like Sirius may be Spd-blessed, freeing up a Speedwing.

Linde saves a turn in Ch. 15 that Mallesia can't do without multiple Speedwings or lucky level-ups; if we're talking H3, Linde shouldn't need a Speedwing since she can just snowball through the arena with Nosferatu. Also note that Linde doesn't need to OHKO Flying Dragons in Ch. 11; her goal is to get the Speedwing, so she simply needs to equip Nosferatu and have 17 AS to not get doubled by the Flying Dragons.

[commonguard]

Hate being new to forums, no idea how to split quotes, so do this the stupid way I guess.

Regarding PKL

"That's a lot of sandbagging and stuff."

Well I never used him and I admitted to being biased against him so what'd you expect?

"Ryan contributes immensely throughout the Prologue, being the only unit to allow recruitment of Ogma and Est without losing turns to the other alternatives. Which in turn saves turns in P8."

Yes his contributions in prologue are amazing, especially in allowing Knight, Merc, and Myrmidons clean 2 turns of Ogma's map, and obviously instrumental in Est. But in P-8 unless Ryan is doing better than the standard 9 turn pretty sure he's just leeching exp like Luke or Rody (H3). I suppose he is better in H4?

"Contributions out of the whazoo in Chapters out of the Prologue (Chapter 1, 2, 3 and then Linde and him are pretty much tied except for Horseman vs Sage later on, which Horseman clearly wins)"

Pretty sure he can't 1HKO DKs without a forged bow. He saves like 1k because you can +5Mt +10Hit Steel instead of +8Mt Iron (Steel hit rates are pathetic). As for Horseman vs Sage, yeah horseman is better, but have you seen Horseman!Ryan stats?

"Supports more units, so he can cheese some chapters as Myrmidon/swordmaster to build sword rank while also saving turns."

H3 and up, unless there is a save point or you have contigency plans (like I only need a dodge on turn 2, or on turn 4 or something to that effect) this is probably unreliable.

"There's 9 Speedwings in the game. 3 of them aren't before Chapter 21 so let's say 6. Units that want them 100% of the time:"

I count 4. Palla gets 2. Sirius/Marth/Luke get the others?

"Has options to fix his borderline spd in Rainbow Pot, Speedwing and Swordmaster/Sniper"

I think Linde does SM better. RP + Speed Wing Sniper can probably double DKs though and Linde would need alot of help in 1RKOing dks with a levin sword.

"Sirius (but screw this guy he's overrated and trash mid-longterm)"

Agreed, but if you shove boss and dragon kills down this guy's throat he can reach like level 14 going into C15, and he could be getting a few of his levels as a Hero, a class in which he has actually good growths. I'd say he's better than both Linde and Ryan.

"Horseman is the best endgame class. Sure, Linde can be a nice Gharnef Killer, but heck, even H2 warpskip Etzel can pull that one off. And that is considerably much faster than Lunatic."

Strange arguement. Horseman is probably the best endgame class, too bad Ryan isn't the best endgame horseman. To be fair, if you put all the spirit dusts on Malacia and give her an armscroll, you could probably reach the 27MAG needed to 1HKO with a crit even on lunatic reverse. Basically Linde shouldn't be counted as the Gharnef slayer if we are assuming crits or warpskipping. Just like Ryan shouldn't be counted as a good horseman because Luke can Armscroll it up for bow rank.

Having Linde as the Gharnef slayer does put less pressure on Malicia's SPD requirement and perhaps indirectly? Etzels staff rank.

"His personal bases aren't bad for a Level 1 unit that has all the availability in the world and worthwhile contributions"

Not really his bases, it's his growths. And let's not kid ourselves with worthwhile contributions (at least in chapters). No units other than like MU, Palla, Caeda, and maybe Catria are doing much other than leeching exp and chipping in for kills which they are probably just chipping for exp so they can be less useless anyways. Until promotion, I've found this to be the case with even Catria for the most part. This is mostly the reason why I completely avoided early chapters since they are just exp farms for the mid and late game chapters.

"Requires Shaver, which isn't even obtained, to do what Ryan does easier in the desert. I'm sure she also can't really OHKO wyverns even with a shaver unless it's forged."

Ryan can't 1HKO without a bow forge (6K)... but yea shaver stupid item so moot point.

Eh, I'll respond to the rest later.

Edit: finished responding to PKL

"Can Nosferatank later on in Chapter 15. Not a unique contribution because Malicia exists and it's entirely possible to have her ready to do it. But it's a nice thing going for her if you put up with her training."

Do you think speed wings grow on trees?

"Not unikely for her to be OHKO'd later on even with a robe with her amazing 40 hp and 5 def growths."

This is only half true. While she is still facing a very real chance of being 1HKO by C4 bandits with 30-31 ATK, the enemies on some of the later maps have less ATK which she can tank with the robe. Next big milestone for survivability is C11, acquiring 17 SPD. She can do this in H3 by way of a Nosferatu winning streak and a promotion which would also give her the HP and DEF boost to avoid being 1HKO'd. From here she shouldn't have any issue tanking hits. SM!Linde can definitely tank a hit without issue.

"Ryan has the option to go Swordmaster in Ch12 with actual strength and use a Wyrmslayer to ORKO Fire Dragons or he can go Sniper if Wyverns are your target."

Gonna use Redwall's C9-C12 here to support my claims for this one (yay, for making this more about Redwalls playlog instead of just Linde vs. Ryan). Redwall opted to field Yumina and Linde as the staffers on top of Malicia. I have no idea why (but I speculate oversight) he didn't just field Linde and Etzel (replacing Yumina's role as the second Physic staffer). In C9 he can get at minimum 1 staff use but probably easily can get 2. In C10 (if you opt to field him he can easily get 2 uses without Feena dancing (on H3) and 3 without dancing on (H4). In C11 he can get 4 uses -- with proper positioning he can mend MU and Sirius on turns 2 and 3 (I forget which one he mends first) and 2 rescues for the 5 turn. He can easily get the 8 uses to get to C staves as a Bishop. In this case Linde is just the other mage (not contributing anything to note but not being useless).

SM!Ryan is doing basically the same thing (except he's taking a combat role). He has the option to do what most combat units have the option to do. I'll give you that his contribution is probably more than Linde's contribution to C12 and he's probably gaining levels here that Linde isn't but he still isn't saving those coveted turncounts.

"Gharnef isn't such a threat that he needs a unit specifically trained for the job."

Agreed. In all honestly, I don't think Linde is the best answer to Gharnef, I whole-heartedly believe Malicia after being given an armscroll should just crit Gharnef. The thing is SM!Linde can make certain enemy types (some of those durable bandits in C13, Warriors in C17, axe DKs, ballistas, etc) that would probably be 2RKO's for some people into a clean 1RKO (at range - no counter taken usually) with the help of Spirit Dusts. Then at that point after you've given her 2 or 3 Spirit Dusts you might as well give her the rest and make her the Gharnef slayer. Seems like an incredibly biased arguement I know but she has a very niche role that almost no one can replace completely, and most people can only hope to partially replace.

"Her Aura only lasts 25 uses, while the Bow forge lasts more and there will come a time when Ryan won't need it."

Aura should last you till C22, at which point you have Starlight, which is basically Aura.

I'll give you that Ryan can't even be billed for the Steel Bow forge since it's necessary for 5 turning C11 and having Jake visit the secret shop.

"She's better vs Ch5 snipers. Although deploying both is often beneficial in that map."

I forgot about this. Yeah, she's pretty useful for pulling the snipers nicely and dealing with that Dragon in C7 (she might need some help tanking the hit on H4 but she deals a massive chunk of damage to it so she can get some nice exp. Although Ryan isn't doing much most bow users can't. Best thing I can say is he probably isn't being doubled by 14 SPD DKs in C5.

"Linde has epic durability issues which limits her exp growth per chapter."

I've said this before but no unit (outside of MU, Palla, Caeda and sometimes Catria) are consistently doing anything noteworthy except taking kill exp before promotion so they can be useful at promotion. I'll admit that I did have to give Linde quite a bit of favouritism (some boss kills that would've normally gone to Sirius or Palla), favouritism Ryan would not need.

Still potential wise, I don't see Ryan>Linde.

For the record:

I know I seem (and probably am) incredibly biased towards Linde, and I've already stated I'm biased against Ryan. His contributions in the prologue are much more than non-existent Linde and even more than Luke. But does his potential warrant a permanent position or does he only qualify for a temporary role?

Edited September 6, 2013 by commonguard

[PKL]

The thing you're both missing here is that Ryan doesn't need to be a Horseman until lategame. There's way too much exp in this game and he can Sniper/Swordmaster (which are both extremely useful) until you want him/can go Horseman. He doesn't require Arms Scroll on his Bow rank unlike Luke, so he saves money that way. He saves 2 exclusive turns in Prologue and is also pretty much neccesary in Chapter 2 and 3. The Steel Bow forge is something that is a good idea anyway as that thing requires less money than the Iron Bow forge. The only reason to waste more money on an Iron Bow forge is for jerking off to Luke or Draug, everone else that wants it can use the Steel Bow forge just fine. The reason some LTC playthroughs like my H2 warp skip and KoT's Lunatic use Ryan as their endgame Horseman (well can't speak for KoT but Im assuming here), is because he's one of the easiest characters to overlevel and completely snowball after a certain point. Like, it isn't uncommon to have a 15/17 something Ryan by the time LTC wants Horseman and by the time you want Horseman, there's ways to fix spd. He doesn't require any Arms Scrolls to get to Parthia, that saves 2500 G over Luke and he also doesn't need some silly Iron Bow forge because his Bow rank doesn't smell which saves more than 1000G, stop sandbagging.

http://gyazo.com/85a1365ba917a2488773e38aff42ef4b

http://gyazo.com/4c0f9d57d78b628052932e31d9d4f5f3

That's 1980 G on top of the previous 2500 Arms Scroll save. With that 2500 he can buy a Wing for himself. Also, my bad, I had forgotten the Wing in Ch16 is completely accesible in Lunatic LTC, if you're willing to sacrifice the Bullion (completely plausible with good money management and Ryan even saves you money through Steel Bow forge). Also, since when does 50 spd growth = bad? That's 1 proc every other level on average. Sure, the possibility of variation exists, but it can go either way. Just as he can get blessed, he can get screwed. Basing arguments on either way is pretty stupid imo. If we're talking about growth here, Linde doesn't look too hot with her 40 hp growth 5 def growth and 40 mag growth, does she? Her mag growth even gets lower when she promotes. Oh, btw, Ryan can be a serviceable Swordmaster. 15/1 Swordmaster Ryan has:

35 HP 14 Str 1 Mag 22 Skl 20 Spd 9 Lck (rounded up) 12 Def 3 Res Sword C

With Rainbow Pot, this puts him at

35 HP 16 Str 3 Mag 24 Skl 22 Spd 11 Lck 14 Def 5 Res

This means he can double and ORKO Fire Dragons with Wyrmslayer in the Dragon Chapters. Linde would require a Wyrmslayer forge, which is just plain silly. He has versatility and money saving going for him. A wyrmslayer forge for Linde is especially silly because we're already forging a Dragonpike and buying some effective Atk weapons that make our wallets suffer. Linde is costly as fuck and the end result isn't even that guaranteed either. Just as Ryan's 50 spd growth can go wrong, Linde's 40 mag 40 hp and 5 def can go wrong and she could end up not able to nostank at all in C15 without ANOTHER resource. Also, Palla needing 2 wings is just plain false. I've never seen a playthrough where she needed 2 wings to function, ever. And what I meant with the Sirius comment is that people spend a Wing on him for some reason even though he never does anything but not get doubled with it. He's so bad and overrated. Sure, he's godlk for the first few chapters you get him, but people jerk off too much to him. As for my comment on Myrmidon cheesing. That's the Chapter 1 trivializing that any 7th platoon can do as a myrmidon (except Cecille iirc because she's bad as Myrm) with the Bond Drop. Literally 6 turns or 4 turns with no thought whatsoever and the Bond Drop isn't really wasted on non Avatar units since it helps them get exp and weapon rank a lot. I'd rather a good unit and a good Avatar than a great Avatar and a bad unit.

TL;DR:

*Iron Bow forge is silly.

*Linde sucks

*Ryan can get screwed, so can Linde, so can every character. We discovered something today!

*Ryan is more versatile than Linde. Linde needs more babying and is just plain bad.

*Ryan saves money and can get really overleveled if you play him right.

*Linde can apparently Nosferatank 8 res Paladins 100% of the time even though her mag growth sucks and her hp isn't guaranteed to let her take a hit. Ryan apparently can't fix his spd even though there's a ton of ways in practice to do so.

*Even in the everyone-gets-screwed-land that Redwall and the other poster live in, Ryan can contribute with his turnshaves and Dracoknight killing and then dropped while Linde will just plain suck after chipping that 1 Sniper in Ch5 with Aura.

PD: You can keep trying but I don't think we won't convince each other. It happens a lot on SF. You won't convince me Linde is better (she really isn't :P ) and I probably won't convince you Ryan is better even with evidence. Also, take this to PM if you want to continue.

EDIT: Nvm the PM comment, I think it's fine to keep posting here...I think?

Edited September 6, 2013 by PKL

[Redwall]

Maybe we should start a new topic specifically for Ryan vs. Linde. I think we'll get input from other users as well.

I agree Ryan is better, but I disagree sharply on how much better he is.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Redwall

[PKL]

Maybe we should start a new topic specifically for Ryan vs. Linde. I think we'll get input from other users as well.

I agree Ryan is better, but I disagree sharply on how much better he is.

That's a good idea. You make the topic?

[Redwall]

OK. I'll address your latest post also.

[XeKr]

I’m really behind on reading your write-ups but regardless, really nice work.

There aren’t many H4 runs documented at all, nevermind ones dedicated about low expected turns and complete (I never finished my own run either. >_>).

Well deserved kudos to you.

A bit curious about any other H3/H4 tier list insights (that challenge the conventions) you might have from your experiences. How would you roughly order the god/toptier?

[fatgamecat]

I think he means that most of the turns that would be saved in a ~160-turn full-recruitment playthrough would come less from crits and more from things like ninja dodges and rigged growths (to the tune of having a 23-Def Dracoknight by Chapter 4).

The "w/e" covers other low RNG hits/dodges/growths as well as crits, and saying "would come less from crits" doesn't preclude crits from lowering counts. Of course not every crit/hit/miss is going to lower turn count, but it obviously refers to reloading for the specific crits/hits/misses that would lower counts.

On Linde, I never thought she was worth using on Lunatic. Edit: not worth using past the first few scenarios, sorry!

Edited September 9, 2013 by mjemirzian

[commonguard]

What the? Doesn't your guide say something about Linde being able to double the generals in C8?