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Airship Canon

"Other ways to Secure Peace" [Spoilers]

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"Father, I have done research into this fell dragon. I believe there are other ways to secure peace besides your demise."- Laurent on Chrom's ending [MU/Miriel].

Just what the damn hell was he getting at with that? Besides the obvious take a third option, of course-- err... what is his third option.

He seems pretty confident with that line, and Laurent being.... Laurent, I doubt he's off the mark.

I mean, yeah, he could be thinking the "easy way" (Walhart's plan, I.E. Jugdral's plan, I.E. Goodbye crazy cult, meet torch burning.) which would be effective at keeping Grima down for good (Hi, Loptyr. I'm not sure you've enjoyed your 3000 year sealing, but it's not ending anytime soon... Seriously, Loptyr is pretty good proof such a plan would work. Sure the Grannvale army never found the Yied Shrine (which I don't get), but it only took a measly 200 years for Loptyr to come back the first time. 3000 years later, since Seliph rolled thru and handed them their asses, the Loptyrian cult didn't seem to get their Dark God back ever- even with Saias around (he doesn't die, and nothing implies he's chaste- he may stick to the thou shalt have no more than one child Maira Convent, but he's not anywhere implied to be chaste)...) even if it is quite brutal. (Not that the Grimleal don't deserve it, but...)

But something tells me it's something else entirely. Use of Alm's Falchion, maybe? (Duma and Mila are not dragons. They're outright gods like Ashera/Yune/Ashunera... with a base assumption that the most powerful of dragons cannot actually destroy each other, perhaps an actual outright god, like one of those two (or Ashera/Yune/Ashunera) can?)

EDIT: I just realized he said "ways". I.E. More than one.

...More reasons to push MU's ending off the table, TBQH.

Edited by Airship Canon

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Since Laurent cared not to elaborate, guess we'll never know. But Laurent is still best son because of this line, lol.

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I took it as a means of reassuring his father, really. And not much more, tbqh.

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Since Laurent cared not to elaborate, guess we'll never know. But Laurent is still best son because of this line, lol.

Eh, I suppose this topic is shots in the dark, but it definitely does suggest that there's ways to permakill Grima beyond having MU deliver that final blow. Just wondering what those could be...

I took it as a means of reassuring his father, really. And not much more, tbqh.

Problem with that is that would be against his character to lie like that. He's got some trick up his sleeve. (and whatever the damn hell it/they is/are, it's probably effective)

Edited by Airship Canon

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I mean, yeah, he could be thinking the "easy way" (Walhart's plan, I.E. Jugdral's plan, I.E. Goodbye crazy cult, meet torch burning.) which would be effective at keeping Grima down for good (Hi, Loptyr. I'm not sure you've enjoyed your 3000 year sealing, but it's not ending anytime soon... Seriously, Loptyr is pretty good proof such a plan would work. Sure the Grannvale army never found the Yied Shrine (which I don't get), but it only took a measly 200 years for Loptyr to come back the first time. 3000 years later, since Seliph rolled thru and handed them their asses, the Loptyrian cult didn't seem to get their Dark God back ever- even with Saias around (he doesn't die, and nothing implies he's chaste- he may stick to the thou shalt have no more than one child Maira Convent, but he's not anywhere implied to be chaste)...) even if it is quite brutal. (Not that the Grimleal don't deserve it, but...)

Or you could let Avatar get the last blow on Grima and get rid of the Fell Dragon.

And Grima still has a body if sealed. This isn't like Loptyr where Julius was killed.

Edited by The Void

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Or you could let Avatar get the last blow on Grima and get rid of the Fell Dragon.

And Grima still has a body if sealed. This isn't like Loptyr where Julius was killed.

Or I could... not because that option sucks on all fronts.

If sealed, he's not coming back in the span where MU is still alive, but here's the catch, he's still requiring that "perfect vessel". Which took countless generations- and the power of a state religion, no, a theocracy, to obtain. Loptyr was just as sealed as Grima, and the whole process could've happened AGAIN, very easily (sure Julius was killed, but it was the same state as when Galle was killed, by the same damn action), and Saias still is around. So it's the same deal post Seliph as it was when Heim took the throne in the first place. The catch? Whatever Seliph did-which, I imagine to be, reversing Arvis's actions that caused the problem in the first place, was effective at stopping an entity that is the same as a weaker (and less end of the world) Grima, from returning. Ever.

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First of all, I think there is legitimate reason to believe that Loptyr is part of Grima - maybe even the central part - if you like the theory that Grima is an amalgamation of all the Earth Dragons sealed away at the Dragon's Altar. I personally also suspect that Loptyr's spirit could have also influenced Medeus's actions, but that's further off-topic.

Regardless, when Laurent says this, Grima is effectively a dormant spirit. As best I can surmise, if Awakened, he would be able to take possession of a suitable human host, and from there would be able to harness quintessence to reconstruct his dragon body. Other dragons of sufficient power would be able to harness quintessence to bring him back to life without him being Awakened, but I personally suspect that in that occasion he is more akin to a giant dragon Risen, and lacks free will of his own.

So to prevent Grima's resurrection, there are several options.

1: Eliminate methods of Awakening. This does not seem a valid solution. Firstly, the Shield of Seals is indestructible, and not necessarily the only method of Awakening (though it is, in all probability, the only currently extant way to perform the Awakening, due to the unique purpose it was originally created for).

2: Eliminate all possible human hosts. This is more doable, but as we see in FE4, by no means a sure way of going about things. Without extensive information from the highest ranks of the Grimleal, it would be effectively impossible to track down every possible carrier of Grima's blood. Granted, this probably applies to both our protagonists and any few cultists to still remain, but even so, it would be impossible to attain an assurance of victory.

3: Eliminate all sources of sufficient quintessence. Obviously not going to work.

4: Destroy, dissipate, or otherwise neutralize the dormant spirit itself. This seems the only viable strategy. How to do it is another matter, though I suspect it might involve creative manipulation of the Shield of Seals, so to be able to interact with the dormant spirit. Beyond that is anyone's guess, though some tomfoolery here is the only "third option" that I can see working.

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First of all, I think there is legitimate reason to believe that Loptyr is part of Grima - maybe even the central part - if you like the theory that Grima is an amalgamation of all the Earth Dragons sealed away at the Dragon's Altar. I personally also suspect that Loptyr's spirit could have also influenced Medeus's actions, but that's further off-topic.

Okay, not only Medeus is way more powerful than Loptyr(Loptyr need a vessel to return, and he is incapable of resuming his Dragon Form. Medeus revived himself, and can do it again if a long enough time passed away. FE3 Medeus only ressurect that quickly because it is enforced with the noble life energy.), the motivation behind Medeus action is also sympathetic.

Personally I believe Medeus is the main part of Grima, based on his death speech at the end of FE3, and what actually happened in FE13

Edited by I have a Dragon Boner

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Since Laurent cared not to elaborate, guess we'll never know. But Laurent is still best son because of this line, lol.

This line, also with the fact that Laurent is the first children to arrived, make me believe that he is in fact the one who opened outrealm gate to allow other children time travel to the past.

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This line, also with the fact that Laurent is the first children to arrived, make me believe that he is in fact the one who opened outrealm gate to allow other children time travel to the past.

You know... that makes sense. Really does.

And if that is the case, it shows that, he's being extremely serious with that line (which also makes sense).

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Okay, not only Medeus is way more powerful than Loptyr(Loptyr need a vessel to return, and he is incapable of resuming his Dragon Form. Medeus revived himself, and can do it again if a long enough time passed away. FE3 Medeus only ressurect that quickly because it is enforced with the noble life energy.), the motivation behind Medeus action is also sympathetic.

Personally I believe Medeus is the main part of Grima, based on his death speech at the end of FE3, and what actually happened in FE13

Well, perhaps.

Medeus does not need a vessel to return, though he was reliant on Gharnef to resurrect him. I suspect that this might have something to do with the fact that he is a Manakete and Loptyr is not, though this may not necessarily be the case. And while Medeus does have a sympathetic motivation initially, I suspect that his decision to turn on humanity could have been in part influenced by Loptyr's spirit - remember, at the point when Medeus turns, Loptyr has been dead and vessel-less but not sealed away for a good 400 years or thereabouts. In search of something to do, he probably went to go bother Medeus, as I highly doubt that he'd be able to communicate with anyone else.

I also think Medeus shows a steady deterioration of sanity throughout his appearances. In FE1 he seems rather articulate, but when he returns in FE3 he is stuck in capslock and a Dark Dragon. To me, this seems reason enough to believe that Loptyr's spirit has been slowly attempting to overtake Medeus as he is defeated and subsequently resurrected. Furthermore, while Medeus does claim that he will be back as long as there is hatred in the hearts of men, Loptyr says it first, chronologically. While this could be just coincidence, I think it's reasonable to view it as more reason to believe that there is a connection.

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Well, perhaps.

Medeus does not need a vessel to return, though he was reliant on Gharnef to resurrect him. I suspect that this might have something to do with the fact that he is a Manakete and Loptyr is not, though this may not necessarily be the case. And while Medeus does have a sympathetic motivation initially, I suspect that his decision to turn on humanity could have been in part influenced by Loptyr's spirit - remember, at the point when Medeus turns, Loptyr has been dead and vessel-less but not sealed away for a good 400 years or thereabouts. In search of something to do, he probably went to go bother Medeus, as I highly doubt that he'd be able to communicate with anyone else.

I also think Medeus shows a steady deterioration of sanity throughout his appearances. In FE1 he seems rather articulate, but when he returns in FE3 he is stuck in capslock and a Dark Dragon. To me, this seems reason enough to believe that Loptyr's spirit has been slowly attempting to overtake Medeus as he is defeated and subsequently resurrected. Furthermore, while Medeus does claim that he will be back as long as there is hatred in the hearts of men, Loptyr says it first, chronologically. While this could be just coincidence, I think it's reasonable to view it as more reason to believe that there is a connection.

Medeus reason to turn on humanity is really understandable

Humans are a dick and look down on Manakete.

In fact, the fact that Medeus decided to turn on human is a solid proof that he still retains his sanity

It should also be noted that Medeus sanity deterioration can be very easilly explained by because he fully become a Dragon, with no need for external explanation or headcanon whatsoever.

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Medeus reason to turn on humanity is really understandable

Humans are a dick and look down on Manakete.

In fact, the fact that Medeus decided to turn on human is a solid proof that he still retains his sanity

It should also be noted that Medeus sanity deterioration can be very easilly explained by because he fully become a Dragon, with no need for external explanation or headcanon whatsoever.

Ah, but there's still the matter of how he became a Dark Dragon. We simply don't know enough about the specifics of being a Dark Dragon to draw any sure conclusions.

I don't deny that the standard interpretation of events can make sense. I merely wished to present an alternate hypothesis that I personally favor. There is no conclusive proof, one way on the other.

Regardless, I fear we have gotten rather off-topic. Sorry about that.

I do also like the theory that Laurent was responsible for opening the gate. I believe Lucina says it was magic they got from Naga, but she doesn't explain the specifics. If Laurent was the one who cast the spell (Or at least, the primary participant, as he could have ad assistance), this could also possibly mean that he has experience with use of draconic magic, making the claim that he knows other ways to permanently eliminate Grima more convincing.

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Its actually pretty interesting to debate on

I don't know much about FE13 myth, but I still questioned why exactly:

1. Is the Pedestal of Flames is broken into pieces. Again.

2. With Tiki still freaking around and living

3. And she said jackshit regarding the matter?

The only thing I know is that the Awakening process need to have the SoS to be fully assembled. Did the process basically turn the subject(in this case the Avatar) into a Shield of Seals proxy or something?

Edited by I have a Dragon Boner

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As far as i can tell, here's how everything with the Awakening and Grima's "death" by Falchion works.

The Shield of Seals, when fully assembled, could seal away fully living dragons, locking them in a dormant state.

When the seal wore off, these dragons came back in their fully corporeal form. However, when the First Exalt "killed" Grima, he did it with the newly-blessed Exalted Falchion. Grima's physical body was vanquished, and Grima's spirit was sent into dormancy. Somehow, the spirit wound up at the Dragon's Altar / Dragon's Table. Either it was slain there, or the long-lasting seal of the Earth Dragons there has lead it to become some sort of locus for Earth Dragon spirits. Alternately, it could just be a special property of the Exalted Falchion (though I find this doubtful).

The Awakening, then, is a ritual performed that effectively inverts the power of the Shield of Seals. It brings dormant or sealed dragon spirits back from their slumber, but nothing more then that. It also has a notably low area of effect, and is very position-centric. For proof, let's look at the steps needed to resurrect Grima...

1. Have the Shield of Seals.

2. Be at the Dragon's Table.

3. Have a suitable host.

4. Have sufficient quintessence on hand.

Because Grima was sealed away without a body, when the Awakening is performed at his place of slumber he comes back as a dragon spirit. With a suitable host he becomes once again able to interact with the world, and with sufficient quintessence he can rebuild his old body.

When Chrom successfully performs the Awakening on Mount Prism, Naga is awoken. Interestingly enough, she is able to bless the Falchion as well as fully heal the part before the last battle - rather a lot of activity for a spirit. This may be, however, because of the presence of Chrom and Lucina, both of which (if we assume that everything is mechanically similar to FE4) could be suitable hosts for Naga. While she has no desire to possess them, their presence might function as a physical conduit for Naga, allowing her to exert some limited powers.

Theoretically, I do not believe that the Awakening necessarily requires the Shield of Seals, just a powerful magical artifact designed to directly seal away or unseal dragons. In practice, though, there is only one such artifact in existence, and probably only Naga knows how to make more.

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