I believe that I have found the most optimal pairings.

[Canto]

Hmm. The only thing that I think is a bit dated is the focus on Sorcerers. Nosfertanking's not that great on Apo for the same reasons that Sol/tanking in general isn't, and IMO the Dark Mage line's more valuable for spreading Vengeance for VV (considering the non-DLC run relied on VV Morgan at its crux).

Edited July 28, 2013 by Canto

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Apo data

Who give a fuck about Vaike!Kjelle

"Dark Mage line's more valuable for spreading Vengeance for VV (considering the non-DLC run relied on VV Morgan at its crux)."

No

Lunatic can be completed with 2 pairing. Lunatic+, Archer Morgan might be superior and there is no way in a fucking hell a unit can get VV in a runthrough while also being efficient in spreading EXP and performing throughout the game

Edited July 28, 2013 by I have a Dragon Boner

[Canto]

Lunatic can be completed with 2 pairing. Lunatic+, Archer Morgan might be superior and there is no way in a fucking hell a unit can get VV in a runthrough while also being efficient in spreading EXP and performing throughout the game

Uh, in context, I was talking about Apo. If we're talking maingame then Nosfertanking's broken.

[PM ME MARIANNE ART]

I'm not using dark magic at all in my lunatic run. Sorcs are overrated.

Edited July 28, 2013 by Duck

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Uh, in context, I was talking about Apo. If we're talking maingame then Nosfertanking's broken.

Non DLC Apo does not use more than 2 - 3 combat unit

[Canto]

Non DLC Apo does not use more than 2 - 3 combat unit

Um, okay? I read the thread. I don't quite see your point, so could you clarify?

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Um, okay? I read the thread. I don't quite see your point, so could you clarify?

Do you even read the thread?

Mattster is well known for his extremely minimalistic and overspecific apporach to min maxing

Unless the shit is super optimal, he won't do it

This includes something like giving a fuck about say.... Gerome and Yarne, using a gen 1, killing off every killable character in the team besides Morgan and Lucina, rigging growth to NOT get ANY SKILL, and attacking with a unit that is not Morgan and Chrom

My team (9 units)

RL!Morgan

Mar!Lucina

Chrom

Maribelle

Aura Laurent

Olivia

Rallybot Avatar

2 Rescuebot with Rescue Staff x 4

Morgan+Lucina is so reliable and overpowered that there is little reason attack with anyone else.

I know he's not the only person who have done this no DLC Apo, but yeah

Edited July 28, 2013 by I have a Dragon Boner

[Canto]

...Okay? I mean, my original point was that Dark Mage was valuable for Apo mainly because of Vengeance. I... don't think it'd be an irrational assumption to make that, because Vantage/Vengeance was the crux of an Apo run in extreme conditions, it'd also be useful in a normal Apo run?

Of course, I'd be far too lazy to try to calculate how to get my kids to exactly 1 HP, I suppose, but getting under half HP doesn't seem so hard.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Nope

Remember, when you have more resource to play with, you have more option to go along with it

In Normal Apotheosis run, Vengeance set up is, in fact not that good

You can replicate the Vengeance strats with Counter Suiciding, but its outright inferior in comparison to simply using Luna with 70%+ chance of proc

Edited July 28, 2013 by I have a Dragon Boner

[Canto]

but its outright inferior in comparison to simply using Luna with 70%+ chance of proc

Hmm, I suppose you're right. Still, that run's given me a bigger appreciation for Vengeance, and probably a bit of a cognitive bias because of it.

[PM ME MARIANNE ART]

I prefer VV on sages because they're easier to get below half, and their magic is stronger.

[shadykid]

Note: all enemies have Dragonskin

[spoiler=Round 1]

2x War Cleric: 80 HP, 50 str, 50 mag, 48 skl, 46 spd, 45 lck, 38 def, 43 res (Fortify) (Renewal, Vengeance, Aegis+)

4x General: 80 HP, 60 str, 40 mag, 51 skl, 40 spd, 45 lck, 50 def, 35 res (Spear++) (Rally Defense, Vengeance, Pavise+)

General: 80 HP, 75 str, 55 mag, 66 skl, 50 spd, 60 lck, 65 def, 50 res (Silver Lance++) (Movement +1, Rally Defense, Vengeance, Pavise+)

Total enemy count: 7

[spoiler=Round 2A]

5x Wyvern Lord: 80 HP, 56 str, 40 mag, 48 skl, 43 spd, 45 lck, 46 def, 30 res (4 Silver Axe++, Tomahawk++) (Swordbreaker, Vengeance, Pavise+)

4x War Monk: 80 HP, 50 str, 50 mag, 48 skl, 46 spd, 45 lck, 38 def, 43 res (Bolt Axe++/Fortify) (Renewal, Vengeance, Aegis+)

War Monk: 80 HP, 65 str, 65 mag, 63 skl, 56 spd, 60 lck, 53 def, 58 res (Tomahawk++/Fortify) (Movement +1, Renewal, Vengeance, Aegis+)

Total enemy count: 10

[spoiler=Round 2B]

5x Berserker: 80 HP, 60 (+5) str, 40 mag, 45 skl, 49 spd, 45 lck, 34 def, 30 res (4 Silver Axe++, Tomahawk++) (Axefaire, Vengeance, Pavise+)

4x Falcon Knight: 80 HP, 48 (+5) str, 45 mag, 55 skl, 49 spd, 45 lck, 33 def, 40 res (Silver Lance++/Fortify) (Lancefaire, Hawkeye, Aegis+)

Falcon Knight: 80 HP, 63 (+5) str, 60 mag, 70 skl, 59 spd, 60 lck, 48 def, 55 res (Spear++/Fortify) (Movement +1, Lancefaire, Hawkeye, Aegis+)

Total enemy count: 10

[spoiler=Round 3]

5x General: 80 HP, 60 str, 40 mag, 51 skl, 40 spd, 45 lck, 50 def, 35 res (4 Silver Lance++, Spear++) (Rally Defense, Vengeance, Pavise+)

5x Bow Knight: 80 HP, 50 str, 40 mag, 53 skl, 46 spd, 45 lck, 35 def, 30 res (4 Silver Bow++, Silver Bow++/Silver Sword++) (Bowbreaker, Hawkeye, Pavise+)

4x Sniper: 80 HP, 51 (+5) str, 40 mag, 58 skl, 45 spd, 45 lck, 40 def, 31 res (Longbow++) (Bowfaire, Hawkeye, Aegis+)

Sniper: 80 HP, 66 (+5) str, 55 mag, 73 skl, 55 spd, 60 lck, 55 def, 46 res (Longbow++) (Movement +1, Bowfaire, Hawkeye, Aegis+)

Total enemy count: 15

[spoiler=Round 4A]

5x Wyvern Lord: 80 HP, 56 str, 40 mag, 48 skl, 43 spd, 45 lck, 46 def, 30 res (4 Silver Lance++, Spear++) (Swordbreaker, Vengeance, Pavise+)

5x Falcon Knight: 80 HP, 48 (+5) str, 45 mag, 55 skl, 49 spd, 45 lck, 33 def, 40 res (4 Silver Lance++/Fortify, Spear++/Fortify) (Lancefaire, Hawkeye, Aegis+)

5x Griffon Rider: 80 HP, 50 str, 40 mag, 53 skl, 46 spd, 45 lck, 40 def, 30 res (4 Silver Axe++, Tomahawk++) (Lancebreaker, Hawkeye, Pavise+)

4x Dark Flier: 80 HP, 46 str, 52 mag, 51 skl, 47 spd, 45 lck, 32 def, 41 res (Rexcalibur++) (Rally Movement, Vengeance, Aegis+)

Dark Flier: 80 HP, 61 str, 67 mag, 66 skl, 57 spd, 60 lck, 47 def, 56 res (Superior Jolt) (Movement +1, Rally Movement, Vengeance, Aegis+)

Total enemy count: 20

[spoiler=Round 4B]

5x Great Knight: 80 HP, 58 str, 30 mag, 44 skl, 42 spd, 45 lck, 48 (+2) def, 30 res (4 Silver Axe++, Tomahawk++) (Defense +2, Vengeance, Pavise+)

5x Valkyrie: 80 HP, 40 str, 52 mag, 48 skl, 48 spd, 45 lck, 30 def, 45 res (4 Rexcalibur++/Fortify, Superior Jolt/Fortify) (Rally Resistance, Hawkeye, Aegis+)

5x Dark Knight: 80 HP, 48 str, 51 mag, 50 skl, 45 spd, 45 lck, 42 def, 38 res (4 Rexcalibur++, Superior Jolt) (Rally Magic, Vengeance, Aegis+)

4x Paladin: 80 HP, 52 str, 40 mag, 50 skl, 45 spd, 45 lck, 42 def, 42 (+2) res (Silver Sword++) (Resistance +2, Hawkeye, Aegis+)

Paladin: 80 HP, 67 str, 55 mag, 65 skl, 55 spd, 60 lck, 57 def, 57 (+2) res (Spear++) (Resistance +2, Movement +1, Hawkeye, Aegis+)

Total enemy count: 20

[spoiler=Round 5]

2x General: 80 HP, 60 str, 40 mag, 51 skl, 40 spd, 45 lck, 50 def, 35 res (Spear++) (Rally Defense, Vengeance, Pavise+)

1x General: 80 HP, 70 str, 50 mag, 61 skl, 45 spd, 55 lck, 60 def, 45 res (Spear++) (Movement +1, Rally Defense, Vengeance, Pavise+)

2x War Cleric: 80 HP, 50 str, 50 mag, 48 skl, 46 spd, 45 lck, 38 def, 43 res (Tomahawk++/Fortify) (Renewal, Vengeance, Aegis+)

1x War Monk: 80 HP, 60 str, 60 mag, 58 skl, 51 spd, 55 lck, 48 def, 53 res (Tomahawk++/Fortify) (Movement +1, Renewal, Vengeance, Aegis+)

2x Falcon Knight: 80 HP, 48 (+5) str, 45 mag, 55 skl, 49 spd, 45 lck, 33 def, 40 res (Silver Lance++/Fortify) (Lancefaire, Hawkeye, Aegis+)

1x Falcon Knight: 80 HP, 58 (+5) str, 55 mag, 65 skl, 54 spd, 55 lck, 43 def, 50 res (Silver Lance++/Fortify) (Movement +1, Lancefaire, Hawkeye, Aegis+)

4x Sniper: 80 HP, 51 (+5) str, 40 mag, 58 skl, 45 spd, 45 lck, 40 def, 31 res (Longbow++) (Bowfaire, Hawkeye, Aegis+)

1x Sniper: 80 HP, 61 (+5) str, 50 mag, 68 skl, 50 spd, 55 lck, 50 def, 41 res (Longbow++) (Movement +1, Bowfaire, Hawkeye, Aegis+)

1x Dark Flier: 80 HP, 56 str, 62 mag, 61 skl, 52 spd, 55 lck, 42 def, 51 res (Superior Jolt) (Movement +1, Rally Movement, Vengeance, Aegis+)

2x Paladin: 80 HP, 52 str, 40 mag, 50 skl, 45 spd, 45 lck, 42 def, 42 (+2) res (Silver Sword++) (Resistance +2, Hawkeye, Aegis+)

1x Paladin: 80 HP, 62 str, 50 mag, 60 skl, 50 spd, 55 lck, 52 def, 52 (+2) res (Spear++) (Resistance +2, Movement +1, Hawkeye, Aegis+)

6x Hero: 80 HP, 52 str, 40 mag, 56 skl, 47 spd, 45 lck, 40 def, 36 res (Superior Edge, Superior Axe, Armorslayer++, Wyrmslayer++, Hammer++, Volant Axe) (Axebreaker, Hawkeye, Pavise+)

Hero: 80 HP, 72 str, 60 mag, 76 skl, 57 spd, 60 lck, 55 def, 51 res (Silver Axe++) (Movement +1, Axebreaker, Hawkeye, Pavise+)

Total enemy count: 25

Total enemy count (normal route): 7+10+15+20+25=77

[spoiler=Round A-1]

6x Griffon Rider: 80 HP, 60 str, 50 mag, 63 skl, 51 spd, 55 lck, 50 def, 40 res (2 Tomahawk++, 4 Bolt Axe++) (Movement +1, Lancebreaker, Hawkeye, Pavise+)

6x Berserker: 80 HP, 70 (+5) str, 50 mag, 55 skl, 54 spd, 55 lck, 44 def, 40 res (4 Silver Axe++, Silver Axe++/Silver Bow++(???), Tomahawk++) (Movement +1, Axefaire, Vengeance, Pavise+)

5x Warrior: 80 HP, 68 str, 50 mag, 62 skl, 50 spd, 55 lck, 50 def, 45 res (Silver Axe++/Silver Bow++, 4 Silver Axe++) (Movement +1, Counter, Hawkeye, Pavise+)

Warrior: 80 HP, 78 str, 60 mag, 72 skl, 55 spd, 60 lck, 55 def, 50 res (Silver Axe++/Silver Bow++) (Movement +1, Vengeance, Counter, Pavise+)

Total enemy count: 18

[spoiler=Round A-2]

5x Great Knight: 80 HP, 68 str, 40 mag, 54 skl, 47 spd, 55 lck, 58 def, 40 res (Spear++, Silver Lance++, Killer Axe++, Silver Axe++, Killer Lance++) (Gamble, Wrath, Hawkeye, Aegis+)

5x Trickster: 80 HP, 55 str, 58 mag, 65 skl, 53 spd, 55 lck, 40 def, 50 res (Killing Edge++/Physic, Silver Sword++/Physic, Levin Sword++/Physic, Wyrmslayer++/Recover, Silver Sword++/Recover) (Wrath, Anathema, Vengeance, Pavise+)

4x Sniper: 80 HP, 66 str, 55 mag, 73 skl, 55 spd, 60 lck, 55 def, 46 res (Silver Bow++) (Counter, Luna+, Vantage+)

Sniper: 80 HP, 76 str, 55 mag, 83 skl, 70 spd, 60 lck, 70 def, 46 res (Brave Bow++) (Luna+, Vantage+, Pavise+, Aegis+)

Total enemy count: 15

[spoiler=Round A-3]

4x Paladin: 80 HP, 62 str, 50 mag, 60 skl, 50 spd, 55 lck, 52 def, 52 res (Levin Sword++, Brave Sword++, Silver Lance++, Silver Sword++) (Sol, Rightful God, Pavise+)

1x Paladin: 80 HP, 67 str, 50 mag, 65 skl, 55 spd, 55 lck, 57 def, 57 res (Ragnell) (Aether, Rightful God, Hawkeye, Pavise+)

4x Falcon Knight: 80 HP, 58 str, 55 mag, 65 skl, 54 spd, 55 lck, 43 def, 50 res (Silver Lance++/ Catharsis, Beast Killer++/Catharsis, Spear++/Catharsis, Shockstick/Catharsis) (Ignis, Rightful God, Aegis+)

1x Falcon Knight: 80 HP, 63 str, 55 mag, 70 skl, 59 spd, 55 lck, 48 def, 55 res (Spear++/Catharsis) (Aether, Rightful God, Hawkeye, Aegis+)

2x Sorceror: 80 HP, 50 str, 69 mag, 58 skl, 55 spd, 70 lck, 51 def, 54 res (Nosferatu++) (Vengeance, Vantage, Miracle, Hawkeye)

Sorceror: 80 HP, 55 str, 74 mag, 68 skl, 60 spd, 99 lck, 56 def, 64 res (Nosferatu++ x2) (Vantage, Miracle, Luna+, Pavise+)

Total enemy count: 13

[spoiler=Round A-4]

2x Soldier: 80 HP, 65 str, 50 mag, 70 skl, 50 spd, 55 lck, 60 def, 45 res (Killer Lance++) (Pass, Ignis, Vengeance, Pavise+)

2x Soldier: 80 HP, 65 str, 50 mag, 70 skl, 50 spd, 55 lck, 60 def, 45 res (Beast Killer++) (Pass, Sol, Vengeance, Aegis+)

1x Soldier: 80 HP, 70 str, 50 mag, 70 skl, 55 spd, 55 lck, 65 def, 50 res (Brave Lance++) (Pass, Aether, Rightful God, Pavise+)

1x Soldier: 80 HP, 70 str, 50 mag, 70 skl, 55 spd, 55 lck, 65 def, 50 res (Brave Lance++) (Pass, Astra, Rightful God, Aegis+)

2x Sniper: 80 HP, 61 str, 50 mag, 68 skl, 50 spd, 55 lck, 50 def, 41 res (Killer Bow++) (Pass, Ignis, Vengeance, Pavise+)

2x Trickster: 80 HP, 55 str, 58 mag, 65 skl, 53 spd, 55 lck, 40 def, 50 res (Levin Sword++) (Pass, Sol, Vengeance, Aegis+)

4x Dark Flier: 80 HP, 56 str, 62 mag, 61 skl, 52 spd, 55 lck, 42 def, 51 res (Bolganone++/Mire, Ruin++/Mire, Rexcalibur++/Mire, Thoron++/Mire) (Galeforce, Shadowgift, Hawkeye, Aegis+)

1x Dark Flier: 80 HP, 56 str, 62 mag, 61 skl, 57 spd, 55 lck, 47 def, 56 res (Book of Naga/Mire) (Galeforce, Shadowgift, Hawkeye, Aegis+)

4x Sage: 80 HP, 50 str, 64 mag, 63 skl, 52 spd, 55 lck, 41 def, 50 res (Celica’s Gale/Catharsis) (Hawkeye, Luna+, Pavise+)

1x Sage: 80 HP, 50 str, 64 mag, 63 skl, 57 (+5) spd, 55 lck, 46 def, 55 res (Forseti/Catharsis) (Hawkeye, Luna+, Pavise+)

2x Berserker: 99 HP, 75 str, 50 mag, 60 skl, 59 spd, 60 lck, 54 def, 50 res (Tomahawk++) (Counter, Hawkeye, Luna+, Aegis+)

Berserker: 99 HP, 80 str, 50 mag, 65 skl, 64 spd, 65 lck, 59 (+5) def, 55 res (Helswath) (Counter, Hawkeye, Luna+, Aegis+)

Total enemy count: 23

[spoiler=Round A-5]

4x Sniper: 80 HP, 66 str, 55 mag, 73 skl, 55 spd, 60 lck, 55 def, 46 res (Silver Bow++) (Counter, Luna+, Vantage+)

1x Sniper: 80 HP, 76 str, 55 mag, 83 skl, 70 spd, 60 lck, 70 def, 46 res (Brave Bow++) (Luna+, Vantage+, Pavise+, Aegis+)

4x Sorceror: 80 HP, 50 str, 69 mag, 58 skl, 55 spd, 70 lck, 51 def, 54 res (Nosferatu++) (Vengeance, Vantage, Miracle, Hawkeye)

2x Sorceror: 99 HP, 55 str, 74 mag, 68 skl, 60 spd, 99 lck, 56 def, 64 res (Nosferatu++) (Vantage, Miracle, Luna+, Pavise+)

2x Berserker: 99 HP, 80 str, 50 mag, 65 skl, 64 spd, 65 lck, 59 (+5) def, 55 res (Helswath) (Counter, Hawkeye, Luna+, Aegis+)

Anna: 99 HP, 60 str, 50 mag, 70 skl, 70 spd, 65 lck, 55 def, 55 res (Spear++, Brave Lance++) (Aether, Counter, Rightful God, Vantage+)

Total enemy count: 14

Total enemy count (alternate route): 7+18+15+13+23+14=90

Edited July 28, 2013 by shadykid

[PM ME MARIANNE ART]

Okay, so I didn't mean to reopen this thread, but I didn't want to make a pairing thread because everyone hates those. For a no sorc/dark magic lunatic+ run, would it be more effective to use Gregor/Maribelle and Lon'qu/Miriel?

Edited August 13, 2013 by Duck

[Chiki]

What's your definition of "optimal?"

Edited August 16, 2013 by Chiki

[Meteor]

Best possible permutation of marriages (maximizing access to the best skills and classes) for beating high difficulty DLC chapters.

[PM ME MARIANNE ART]

Best possible permutation of marriages (maximizing access to the best skills and classes) for beating high difficulty DLC chapters.

While also having pretty good mods.

[Chiki]

Best possible permutation of marriages (maximizing access to the best skills and classes) for beating high difficulty DLC chapters.

Seems vague. What's the "best possible?"

I personally think giving everyone Galeforce is the best possible and the most easiest way to beat every DLC chapter.

[PM ME MARIANNE ART]

Seems vague. What's the "best possible?"

I personally think giving everyone Galeforce is the best possible and the most easiest way to beat every DLC chapter.

Okay, then replace Vaike with MaMU and you got it.

[duyfliz]

• very good, nothing to complaint, seems ok to me

[Carter]

Ooh I caught someone!

I'm getting integrity! I'll save the day!

[Integrity]

don't minimod and also don't necro.