On Walhart and Alm. (Spoilers)

[The Void]

Walhart is compared to Alm ingame, he goes around Valm fighting, he opposes the interference of gods in what mortals do, and there's how Alm is shown to be in the DLC.

Walhart wonders in his support with Avatar how different things would have gone if he somebody like the Avatar with him. Which might be pointing to Walhart being who Alm could have become without Celica.

[Faye]

Well, thank god for that then. It's too late for Walmart, though. Isn't there speculation that Walmart is Alm's descendant? What a shame Alm has such a hideous descendant.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

The same kind of thing.... can be questioned with almost every heroes in FE actually

What if Celice does not have Lewyn?

What if Leif does not have August, Finn, and Nanna?

What if one of Eliwood and Hector does not exist?

So the answer would be Walhart would probably become like regular FE heroes(in this case, Hector), although with FE-MU being.... well, FE-MU thats qestionable

Edited August 6, 2013 by I have a Dragon Boner

[Airship Canon]

What if Celice does not have Lewyn?

Seliph's pretty well off on his own. I suppose he might wimp out at Thracia, but he's really got no choice in that battle even without Lewyn's "guidance". Lewyn doesn't do a whole lot for Seliph. The bigger loss there is more or less "Julia doesn't get given to him" which means: We're out a Nosfertank, and Julius gets pummeled to death with Tyrfing, because the game's bad in that way, and doesn't -require- that Julia do the damages with Book of Naga like it claims, and Seliph -can- kill Julius just fine without her.

[bookofholsety]

What if Celice does not have Lewyn?

pretty much the only major change a Lewynless Seliph would have would be walking into the battle with Julius significantly less informed and probably reacting as follows: HOLY LIVING FUCK A DRAGON JUST POPPED OUT OF HIS GODDAMN SPELLBOOK FUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCK

not to say that wasn't likely his actual reaction but it probably helped that Lewyn told him about it beforehand

seriously though i'd argue that Seliph wasn't really the sort who needed that sort of straight-arrow guidance like Alm or Walhart. if anything, encouragement was what he needed more and what he accordingly got from Lewyn

same with Leif and Eliwood really, though on the other hand Hector or Ephraim may be a similar case. admittedly i get the feeling Alm actually isn't as much of a Walhart-like case either and it's a bit of an exaggeration to claim he could've potentially done a Full Megalomaniacal Walhart™, but eh

[BrightBow]

Hehe, well Walhart would probably have succeeded in conquering the world. I mean the guy gives Skrimir a run for his money. Walhart is the guy who said with a straight face that he had no need for strategy. God help us all, if he actually uses his brain to direct his power.

Of course, the guy who really would have been screwed without assistance is Ike.

Ike's success depended entirely on Soren's intellect and Titania's experience and wisdom.

He is just the guy who can get the two of them working together, since Soren's selfish pragmatism conflicts with Titania's chivalry.

And Leaf would probably have gotten himself killed rather quickly. He is way too impulsive to survive unless someone can keep him in check. Remember, he refused to escape to southern Thracia even when it was the only option, since he could not accept the help of a country who brought down his own country. And the one time even August couldn't keep him on the leash, resulted in him loosing half his forces and almost Lenster's capital. This was only avoided because someone more competent came to save him.

Edit: Oh, yeah Gaiden... erm, did someone finish it?

I thought the two of them traveled separately. So how could Celica have influenced Alm's actions?

Edited August 6, 2013 by BrightBow

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Admitedly, Celice is one of the better FE heroes because he is like the perfect Lord(outside of the fact that Leif is totally the main character of FE4 derp) but saying Lewyn is not a factor "at all" is quite misleading

The moral of FE4, at least for gen 2 "seems" to be that revenge is bad, and there are only one person who actually give a fuck about this, which is Celice who get lectured by Lewyn once every minutes.

Looking back at the rest of the cast, we have Aless(Lol), Leif?(I dreamed of kicking your ass since I was not even a 1 years old toddler, yet I can walk and talk because fuck logic). The rest of the cast? oh right. Special mention to Arthur, who'se leadership capability is very questionable in his own right

But yeah, I agree that this is more evident for Leif. Without Finn, he has no figure who protect him during his childhood, and he would not have someone who give him an advice he need. Without August, he would still become ignorant. Without Nanna as an emotional support, he would become a second Quan, and we all know how terrible Quan is

Edited August 6, 2013 by I have a Dragon Boner

[Armaada J]

The same kind of thing.... can be questioned with almost every heroes in FE actually

What if Celice does not have Lewyn?

What if Leif does not have August, Finn, and Nanna?

What if one of Eliwood and Hector does not exist?

So the answer would be Walhart would probably become like regular FE heroes(in this case, Hector), although with FE-MU being.... well, FE-MU thats qestionable

You missed a big one!!

What if Marth did not have Jeigan or Malledus?? He probably would have rushed head-on into a battle and died, or gotten critted by a boss.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

You missed a big one!!

What if Marth did not have Jeigan or Malledus?? He probably would have rushed head-on into a battle and died, or gotten critted by a boss.

Marth is not reckless(or at least not as much as the big names which is why I missed this), but thats a good one. Also Sheeda need a mention for being responsible for 2 major allies during the war. He don't even need Jeigan because Marth is overpowered

I should note that even in FE3, where Marth is not overpowered anymore Marth for the most part(cough ch 1 - 3 cough) retains his "wise" personality and judgment. Jeigan is only there to be awesome, and taught Marth about consequences in war

Edited August 6, 2013 by I have a Dragon Boner

[riariadne]

Edit: Oh, yeah Gaiden... erm, did someone finish it?

I thought the two of them traveled separately. So how could Celica have influenced Alm's actions?

I think he meant after the events of Gaiden.

Still, I'm pretty sure that Alm wouldn't have been like Walhart anyway. Walhart and Alm do seem to share a lot of opinions, but Walhart is still more drastic anyway. Alm isn't made out to be the nicest guy around, but that doesn't mean he'd try to take over the world.

[The Void]

Alm and Celica talked to each other after Dozer is beaten.

[Lhyonnaes]

same with Leif and Eliwood really, though on the other hand Hector or Ephraim may be a similar case. admittedly i get the feeling Alm actually isn't as much of a Walhart-like case either and it's a bit of an exaggeration to claim he could've potentially done a Full Megalomaniacal Walhart™, but eh

Let's not sell Walhart short, here.

Keep in mind that we mostly see Walhart from the viewpoint of his enemies - enemies for which he holds a special disdain due to their religious beliefs and for their optimistic hope for diplomatic peace (Keep in mind that a large part of Walhart's preference for conquest comes from the history of Valm, where Alm was able to unite the continent through warfare, and where there has never been any observed indication of diplomacy being particularly effective - the deterioration of the Empire into perpetually squabbling states points towards a primarily political downfall, not a powerful rebellion or other military takeover).

From what we can tell, the Valmese (which in all likelihood includes a significant number of the conquered peoples) view Walhart as something akin to a god. He is said to be the reincarnation of the most celebrated hero in the continent's history. He has boosted Valm from a backwater collection of nations into what might be the most powerful state in the world. He is a dictator, to be sure, and a man with little respect for those he views as weak, but he is not a megalomaniac tyrant. His ambition to conquer Archanea comes foremost not from the desire to crush more peoples under the Valmese boot, but to prevent the resurrection of Grima and ensure the continued survival and dominance of humanity (indeed, if Walhart has one end goal, it is to boost humanity to the height of its potential, regardless of any opposition he runs into along the way.)

That's why the parallels with Alm are so interesting. Sure, Alm is presented to us as ultimately benevolent - after all, his war against Rigel is justified by Rigel's actions. But what if, in a Celica-less alternate history, if Sofia would have refused to accept Alm's unification? What if they kept their Mila-centric beliefs, and still walked that path to quiet self-destruction? Is it so hard to believe that this alternate-universe Alm would decide that another war would be a sad necessity in order to better the world, to achieve the goal of lasting peace he had already fought so hard to bring about? When you think about it that way, I think, they aren't so different in a way that few other Fire Emblem characters can claim.

[BrightBow]

Erm... Wallhart was described by the locals as a guy who razes villages for fun and sports.

Him being a cruel tyrant seems pretty much to be the consent.

It's just that the script paints him as a cartoonish bad guy. And when it decides he has totally good intention, it simply says that he is misguided and ignores all the past stuff that isn't consistent with that interpretation.

I mean, how does destroying villages help his "quest"? Exp grinding?

Edited August 8, 2013 by BrightBow

[RJWalker]

^Destroying villages is the red team's equivalent of visiting them.

[Lhyonnaes]

Does the Walhart we ourselves see in game seem like someone who razes villages for fun and sport, or someone who razes villages because he thinks it's a necessary military tactic?

The sources we hear from are likely to be rather biased against Walhart, after all. And from their perspective, his actions might seem to be unprovoked and thoughtlessly cruel.

But the Walhart we actually see is a bit more intelligent than that. He doesn't seem the type to go raze villages just for fun. However, he probably knows that, if there is some dissent popping up, razing a village is a fast and effective way to scare the populace back into complacency.

I'm not saying he's a good guy, and not saying that the game necessarily treats him in a consistent manner, but I don't think he's as cartoonish as you think. (Though it's an understandable opinion given that most of the Valmese sources we get like to paint him like he is).

[darkkfan]

Hehe, well Walhart would probably have succeeded in conquering the world. I mean the guy gives Skrimir a run for his money. Walhart is the guy who said with a straight face that he had no need for strategy. God help us all, if he actually uses his brain to direct his power.

I've got to use this one sometime. No strategy indeed!

Let's not sell Walhart short, here.

Keep in mind that we mostly see Walhart from the viewpoint of his enemies - enemies for which he holds a special disdain due to their religious beliefs and for their optimistic hope for diplomatic peace (Keep in mind that a large part of Walhart's preference for conquest comes from the history of Valm, where Alm was able to unite the continent through warfare, and where there has never been any observed indication of diplomacy being particularly effective - the deterioration of the Empire into perpetually squabbling states points towards a primarily political downfall, not a powerful rebellion or other military takeover).

From what we can tell, the Valmese (which in all likelihood includes a significant number of the conquered peoples) view Walhart as something akin to a god. He is said to be the reincarnation of the most celebrated hero in the continent's history. He has boosted Valm from a backwater collection of nations into what might be the most powerful state in the world. He is a dictator, to be sure, and a man with little respect for those he views as weak, but he is not a megalomaniac tyrant. His ambition to conquer Archanea comes foremost not from the desire to crush more peoples under the Valmese boot, but to prevent the resurrection of Grima and ensure the continued survival and dominance of humanity (indeed, if Walhart has one end goal, it is to boost humanity to the height of its potential, regardless of any opposition he runs into along the way.)

That's why the parallels with Alm are so interesting. Sure, Alm is presented to us as ultimately benevolent - after all, his war against Rigel is justified by Rigel's actions. But what if, in a Celica-less alternate history, if Sofia would have refused to accept Alm's unification? What if they kept their Mila-centric beliefs, and still walked that path to quiet self-destruction? Is it so hard to believe that this alternate-universe Alm would decide that another war would be a sad necessity in order to better the world, to achieve the goal of lasting peace he had already fought so hard to bring about? When you think about it that way, I think, they aren't so different in a way that few other Fire Emblem characters can claim.

Does the Walhart we ourselves see in game seem like someone who razes villages for fun and sport, or someone who razes villages because he thinks it's a necessary military tactic?

The sources we hear from are likely to be rather biased against Walhart, after all. And from their perspective, his actions might seem to be unprovoked and thoughtlessly cruel.

But the Walhart we actually see is a bit more intelligent than that. He doesn't seem the type to go raze villages just for fun. However, he probably knows that, if there is some dissent popping up, razing a village is a fast and effective way to scare the populace back into complacency.

I'm not saying he's a good guy, and not saying that the game necessarily treats him in a consistent manner, but I don't think he's as cartoonish as you think. (Though it's an understandable opinion given that most of the Valmese sources we get like to paint him like he is).

Well put. This saved me a lot of time that I would have spent defending Walhart. I don't know much about Alm, but it really warms my giant lobster heart when someone sees Walhart for what he really is: an intelligent, powerful, and principled leader who was not successful simply because he was not the game's main character.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Erm... Wallhart was described by the locals as a guy who razes villages for fun and sports.

Him being a cruel tyrant seems pretty much to be the consent.

I mean, how does destroying villages help his "quest"? Exp grinding?

Just look at Serenesforest

Walhart failed to conquer Lunatic+

[darkkfan]

I mean, how does destroying villages help his "quest"? Exp grinding?

Just look at Serenesforest

Walhart failed to conquer Lunatic+

Apparently it's because I never destroyed any villages for EXP grinding

Dammit, Boner, stop trying to motivate me to beat Luna+, it's not working. Ok, it actually is working.

Edited August 9, 2013 by Walhart

[Natzuki]

Yo, chrom without frederick, act 1 lunatic +