PAIRINGS The Pairing Thread

[MelonGx]

Sorcerer!Severa is a final set before Apo outs, no matter whom her father is, since Nostank >>>>> any other on defense.

I will have to re-examine this formula and the one in my spreadsheet to see why my spreadsheet gives higher damage numbers than your formula. But a few things to note:

1. Dragonskin and Aegis truncating occurs each division, and it's based on attack-defense, not attack by itself. Rounding at the end can overestimate active position damage by 2. It turns out that with the throne bonus (which I did not account for in my last post), and using your formula, the Celica damage is on the cusp, so using the correct rounding can be important.

2. The strongest pure Celica VV user is FeMU!Lucina active and Libra!Laurent support, assuming you want to reserve Ricken for other inheritance, because hard support Laurent can stack LB, TF, AS+2, Mag+2 without giving up anything (except time needed to farm gold). Using Lucina has support deliberately lowers damage from this setup.

3. It's an enemy that's stuck on the throne and doesn't have Vantage+. Whether a VV user without Aggressor can kill it in the vantage round is academic.

1. The actual formula should be

int[int[(A-58+42)/2]/2]*2 + int[(B-58)/2]*2*2 >= 99

The inverse operation of rounding was too complicated for me so I simplified that, even it would be incorrect.

2. Many FeMU x Chrom are made for Armthrift Lucina. If they want to put AT & DS+ on Lucina, then they have no space to put either of LB, Vantage, Vengeance, TF. But you're correct. Taking out AT makes Lucina available to be in the front to enlarge support output with a higher Mag unit.

But due to Celica's Gale's inferior MT compared with Brave Sword/Lance/Axe/Bow, the best Celica VV Tank should be a Magical/Physical one like Sage/Berserker(Warrior/General). 4+2=6 double boost loss doesn't decrease the offense a lot because forward output is seriously restricted by Aegis+.

3. I know it's not movable. But there's no difference between using Celica VV Tank on PP and EP.

Edited April 26, 2014 by MelonGx

[IceBrand]

If it's not too much trouble, could someone rate my pairing?

Chrom X Sumia

Frederick X Lissa

Avatar X Thraja

Sully X Stahl

Virion X Cherche

Miriel X Kellam

Cordelia X Gauis

Olivia X Lon'qu

Nowi X Donnel

Gregor X Panne

Ricken X Maribelle

[Raftina]

Would +Speed / -Luck make the children turn out good (I chose this and am only on chapter 1 so restarting is possible)? Or would there be a better option that won't make Lunatic unbearable (I'm up for a challenge either way).

And further, what asset and flaw would be best for a FeMU x Chrom run? I plan to do this one on Hard mode along side my above Lunatic run.

+spd/-luk is probably the best compromise you can make for ease of early game Lunatic/L+, as the spd gives you a better chance to 2x and gives some evasion, while you don't lose too much offense from luk (and no defense from luk). On Lunatic, you may want to consider +mag/-luk as well, though for 2 active units, I think spd is the better asset.

Sorcerer!Severa is a final set before Apo outs, no matter whom her father is, since Nostank >>>>> any other on defense.

3. I know it's not movable. But there's no difference between using Celica VV Tank on PP and EP.

There is no difference because you chose a build that has no difference. LB, TF, AS+2 and offense+2 are the only stats that directly affect damage. That leaves 1 slot. AT gives nice utility by ensuring you never lose a strike because the weapon broke, but the other skills are marginal. If the intended criticism against the VV tank is that it cannot kill a particular immobile enemy during the vantage attack, then the obvious solution, if we insist on one unit being able to do everything, is to kill it with the added damage from Aggressor.

On a side note, Nostank is only useful for recovering from L+ Counter spam. For other situations, VV or Sol tank on a dark flier is better for the movement advantage.

[Viviphy]

+spd/-luk is probably the best compromise you can make for ease of early game Lunatic/L+, as the spd gives you a better chance to 2x and gives some evasion, while you don't lose too much offense from luk (and no defense from luk). On Lunatic, you may want to consider +mag/-luk as well, though for 2 active units, I think spd is the better asset.

Alright, I figured that would be the best choice for Lunatic in-game. But, I'm also trying to keep the children into consideration. Would Lucina & Nah be hurt by +Spd/-Luck?

[Shadow Mir]

+spd/-luk is probably the best compromise you can make for ease of early game Lunatic/L+, as the spd gives you a better chance to 2x and gives some evasion, while you don't lose too much offense from luk (and no defense from luk). On Lunatic, you may want to consider +mag/-luk as well, though for 2 active units, I think spd is the better asset.

There is no difference because you chose a build that has no difference. LB, TF, AS+2 and offense+2 are the only stats that directly affect damage. That leaves 1 slot. AT gives nice utility by ensuring you never lose a strike because the weapon broke, but the other skills are marginal. If the intended criticism against the VV tank is that it cannot kill a particular immobile enemy during the vantage attack, then the obvious solution, if we insist on one unit being able to do everything, is to kill it with the added damage from Aggressor.

On a side note, Nostank is only useful for recovering from L+ Counter spam. For other situations, VV or Sol tank on a dark flier is better for the movement advantage.

This is just my two cents, but I wouldn't be using a Luck flaw in Lunatic, given that going to 2 luck down from 4 is not a good thing given that most enemies early on may have high Skill, Gamble, or Zeal, among other methods of having crit on you.

[MelonGx]

On a side note, Nostank is only useful for recovering from L+ Counter spam. For other situations, VV or Sol tank on a dark flier is better for the movement advantage.

This isn't true.

1) Nothing but Low-forward-output Hi-support-damage can tank continuously counterbombs, even Nostank.

2) Sol tank is an inferior Nostank. (You can put Sol on Nostanks to increase recovery. But it's still Nostank based.)

3) Celica Tank without DS is good ONLY on enemies without Aegis or Aegis+. Nostanks don't care.

Edited April 26, 2014 by MelonGx

[Raftina]

This isn't true.

1) Nothing but Low-forward-output Hi-support-damage can tank continuously counterbombs, even Nostank.

2) Sol tank is an inferior Nostank. (You can put Sol on Nostanks to increase recovery. But it's still Nostank based.)

3) Celica Tank without DS is good ONLY on enemies without Aegis or Aegis+. Nostanks don't care.

2. X is an inferior Y only matters when Y is necessary. Nosferatu isn't necessary unless the enemy is using Counter. And, of course, Nostank is only possible on dark mages and shadowgift users, while Sol tank is possible on any class that can attack and can be on the same character as Hero or a parent with Hero.

3. There are 2 Celica tanks proposed: VV and Sol, both of which Severa can use. Sol tank doesn't care about Aegis+.

1. implies Nostank is never necessary.

[MelonGx]

Sol Tank is inferior because it's always luck based. It's about 55% as usual.

Nosferatu is a 100% Sol.

Nothing but a 100% Sol can lead the game without counterbombs to the victory by repeating doing nothing but ending player phase, with the minimum risk for dying a unit.

Although Celica's Gale performs twice attack, if Sol isn't activated on the first hit, the recovery will be even more inferior than a normal Sol Tank, because the 2nd hit does fewer damage than 1st hit which makes the recovery very few.

Furthermore, non-Apo stages Logbook accessible don't need Dual Strikes except fighting against Grima.

That means everything can be taken place by Einherjar Nostanks, unless fighting against Grima or Apo enemies for less failure.

Edited April 26, 2014 by MelonGx

[Raftina]

Nothing but a 100% Sol can lead the game without counterbombs to the victory by repeating doing nothing but ending player phase, with the minimum risk for dying a unit.

Furthermore, non-Apo stages Logbook accessible don't need Dual Strikes except fighting against Grima.

That means everything can be taken place by Einherjar Nostanks, unless fighting against Grima or Apo enemies for less failure.

This condition is a bias in favor of Nosferatu users. Nosferatu is tied to a ground unit, except Shadowgift users--which Severa is not. This means

1. a Celica's unit can avoid melee attacks by moving to inaccessible terrain, while Nosferatu unit cannot. This is most obvious while farming RR3 for LBs, where a Celica's unit can move to the inaccessible square to avoid Jaffar, while the Nos unit must deal enough damage to clear a path to Jaffar to get first strike.

2. More unit need to be deployed for protection maps, e.g. FP, paralogue 17. For FP2 specifically, Nosferatu users need flying units to ferry them around, cutting the number of usable units in half.

3. Nosferatu isn't strong enough to kill FP1-2 enemies without DS. The units must switch to Waste.

In addition, you have yet to address the issue of where Nosferatu's advantage over Sol matters. The answer is: Only on L+ because of Hawkeye+ and Luna+. But Hawkeye+, Luna+, and Nosferatu occur on the same map iff the enemy can randomly have Counter, i.e. only in situations where I initially admitted Nosferatu is useful.

Edited April 26, 2014 by Raftina

[Czar_Yoshi]

Since nobody else is going to answer...

If it's not too much trouble, could someone rate my pairing?

Chrom X Sumia Good.

Frederick X Lissa Terrible mod clash, no.

Avatar X Thraja If you must go Gen1, Nowi is better but Tharja still works.

Sully X Stahl Terrible, Noire only gets Archer.

Virion X Cherche Wyvern/Sage overlap and no Berserker for Gerome, not recommended.

Miriel X Kellam OK, but Laurent really wants Vantage.

Cordelia X Gauis Pegasus Overlap, not recommended.

Olivia X Lon'qu Myrmidon overlap and no Luna/Vengeance, no trecommended.

Nowi X Donnel No procs to activate Galeforce with, but OK.

Gregor X Panne Good.

Ricken X Maribelle Good.

Yeah, "canon" pairings aren't that good in this game.

Nothing but a 100% Sol can lead the game without counterbombs to the victory by repeating doing nothing but ending player phase, with the minimum risk for dying a unit.

100% critical?

[Airship Canon]

100% critical?

Looking at an Einherjar/Guest MU over-blown Crit Build

Sage@Katarina's

Gamble, Wrath, Limit, Focus, Vantage

+Skl, -Def

Support@[Whatever]

Soldiarity, Dual Support+, Anathema

60 Skill [minimum]: +30 CRT

Gamble: +10 CRT

Focus: +10 CRT

Wrath: +20 CRT in Vantage Range

Katarina's: +30-45 CRT

Soldiarity: +10 CRT

Dual Su+: +10 CRT

Anathema: -10 LCK

100% crit during non-Vantage attacks if the target has <10-25 LCK.

100% crit during Vantage attacks if the target has <30-45 LCK.

Output: [unforged]

56+11+3+2: 72 ATK: If the enemy lacks Aegis+, they require 45 RES

Against Aegis+ they only require 19 RES.

If the support is another Sage, it's 56+11+9+2: 78 ATK

Against that, it's 52 RES [doesn't exist outside of Grima] for normals, 25 against Aegis+.

Using Forged we get 3 more ATK: 81 to bump the numbers up to 55/28, but you're still shy of 1-shot everything.

You'd need to sacrifice some CRT to run either TF [which hits 86 ATK: 60/33... 1 shots everything BUT late game Falcos] or Vengeance which trades down some early power for upwards of +42 ATK.

It can be done, but some late game enemies will have either enough RES to survive or enough LCK to get CRT down below 100%.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Use Lon'qu!Laurent, pair him up with Morgan or Avatar (only A is necessary), both as Sages, give him a forged Wilderwind, drop him to 1HP, swap LB for Vengeance, get a Barracks Boost in Skl (Mag doesn't matter) and I'm pretty sure it's possible to EP OHKO any enemy in Secret Apo with 55 or less Lck/Res with no Limit/Agg/Rally. Some numbers:

Laurent's Skl: 43(base) +5(mods) +7(Sage support) +4(Barracks) +2(tonic) =61.

Laurent's effective crit: 30(base) +50(Wilderwind) +20(Wrath) +10(Focus) +10(Gamble) +15(Support/DS+) +10(Solidarity) +10(Anathema) =155, enough for 100% on anything with 55 Lck or less.

Laurent's atk (+3/0/15 Wilderwind): 46(base) +4(mods) +9(Sage support) +5(Wilderwind) +2(WRB) +2(tonic) +42(Vengeance) =110. He needs to do 27 damage before the crit to KO an 80 HP enemy, so 54 before Dragonskin, so he can OHKO anything with 56 Res or less. The beefiest non-Aegis+ enemy with 80HP and 55 Lck is Wave 4's Sage with 55 Res.

If you add Rally, you can either switch Laurent to a Ruin Sorc to get rid of the Wilderwind/Barracks requirement, or add Nightmare Sniper and his cohort to the list of things you can kill.

Edited April 27, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi

[Raftina]

Ruin replaces Katarina's Bolt: +20 crt, -7 mt, -15 hit

Vengeance replaces Gamble: -10 crt, +42 mt, +5 hit

Sorcerer replaces Sage: -3 crt, -2 mt, -8 hit

Net change: +7 crt, +33 mt, -18 hit

[terff]

I have one more question, should I take libra from maribelle and give him to lissa, that would give Owain sorcerer so he can run Vantage/Vengeance or is he better with ricken as a father?

[PM ME MARIANNE ART]

Now I have a question. Does all this vengeance/vantage crap really matter? I mean, apotheosis isn't that hard. I'm in the process of beating it with these pairings:

Chrom x Sumia

Avatar x Say'ri

Virion x Olivia

THOR x Lissa

Henry x Maribelle

Kellam x Sully (not using Kjelle so I guess this doesn't matter)

Gregor x Cherche

Stahl x Panne

Teach x Cordelia

Donny x Nowi

Gaius x Tharja

Lon'qu x Miriel

I feel like I missed some but whatever

[MelonGx]

This condition is a bias in favor of Nosferatu users. Nosferatu is tied to a ground unit, except Shadowgift users--which Severa is not. This means

1. a Celica's unit can avoid melee attacks by moving to inaccessible terrain, while Nosferatu unit cannot. This is most obvious while farming RR3 for LBs, where a Celica's unit can move to the inaccessible square to avoid Jaffar, while the Nos unit must deal enough damage to clear a path to Jaffar to get first strike.

2. More unit need to be deployed for protection maps, e.g. FP, paralogue 17. For FP2 specifically, Nosferatu users need flying units to ferry them around, cutting the number of usable units in half.

3. Nosferatu isn't strong enough to kill FP1-2 enemies without DS. The units must switch to Waste.

In addition, you have yet to address the issue of where Nosferatu's advantage over Sol matters. The answer is: Only on L+ because of Hawkeye+ and Luna+. But Hawkeye+, Luna+, and Nosferatu occur on the same map iff the enemy can randomly have Counter, i.e. only in situations where I initially admitted Nosferatu is useful.

1. I just know Water Trick on Prologue, Shadowgift Trick on Para.23. I don't ever know whether there is a spot like that in RaR3. For my memory it doesn't exist. Flying units do need such a place to make them invincible in RaR3 but 100% Sol units don't scare dogfight.

2 & 3. I'm not discussing OTKO everything with tankers, but the least risky tanking set to survive.

If it's not OTKO, we have enough time to deal with all opponents.

In FP2 or Five Anna we need carriers. But all we need is just the carriage.

A regular 55% Sol without Dragonstone+ is not enough to survive in RaR3 indeed.

Chrom x Sumia - Good

Avatar x Say'ri - Acceptable. Though Morgan is not so powerful.

Virion x Olivia - Virion doesn't give Inigo 50%+ procs

THOR x Lissa - Who is Thor?

Henry x Maribelle - OK

Kellam x Sully (not using Kjelle so I guess this doesn't matter)

Gregor x Cherche - Good

Stahl x Panne - OK since Berserker!Yarne get benefits on Stahl's Hit+20

Teach x Cordelia - Who is Teach?

Donny x Nowi - Acceptable but it make Nah lack 50%+ procs. Only Avatar gives Nah both Galeforce and 50%+ procs.

Gaius x Tharja - Good

Lon'qu x Miriel - Good

Edited April 28, 2014 by MelonGx

[Czar_Yoshi]

I don't ever know whether there is a spot like that in RaR3. For my memory it doesn't exist.

There is... technically. There's one square open between the top left corner of the central structure and the wall around it that has no range 1 facings and 2 range 2 facings, and with a Shadowgift DF or Galeforce (to remove weapons and limit EP battles to two per turn) you can tank it from there.

I think Ringabel was asking if VV matters, not for pairing advice. And no, it really doesn't, it's mainly important when doing Apo challenge runs starting with no LB.

Edited April 28, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi

[Viviphy]

@MelonGx: I assume Ringabel is referring to Libra as Thor and Vaike as "Teach"

[Raftina]

RR3 is a map with a lethality sword user (Jaffar). You must have first strike against him or have a flat hit*lethality chance of failing. Nos doesn't have the damage output to gurantee this without DS. VV or Sol with Celica's is much safer than Nos for that reason.

FP2 has ignore player units fliers. Waiting means losing npcs. Needing ferries means fewer slots for parent-child conversations.

The difference between Nos and Sol/VV isn't large enough to justify losing 8 flying movement and 2x attacks.

[MelonGx]

RR3 is a map with a lethality sword user (Jaffar). You must have first strike against him or have a flat hit*lethality chance of failing. Nos doesn't have the damage output to gurantee this without DS. VV or Sol with Celica's is much safer than Nos for that reason.

FP2 has ignore player units fliers. Waiting means losing npcs. Needing ferries means fewer slots for parent-child conversations.

The difference between Nos and Sol/VV isn't large enough to justify losing 8 flying movement and 2x attacks.

Jaffar is pretty easy to be taken down with Spd 51's 2-hit Aversa's Night. It's achievable even without LB on Lon'qu!Severa/Chrom ((69 ATK - 29 Res)*2 = 80). If it's LB enabled, any Mag or Spd asset Einherjar Nostanks can ORKO him without double.

FP2's enemy boss and some of nearby GK/Paladins don't move.

Send 4 Tank+Carrier = 8 units to block the bridges (and reinforces in later turns), you can sweep the rest within 1st turn.

Although you just have 3 in-game units to perform the conversations, it's the safest strategy.

Repeat once again: 55% Sol without insane resistance = Celica Tank meets Aegis/Aegis+ without DS = higher risk to die.

Edited April 28, 2014 by MelonGx

[Shadow Mir]

Jaffar is pretty easy to be taken down with Spd 51's 2-hit Aversa's Night. It's achievable even without LB on Lon'qu!Severa/Chrom ((69 ATK - 29 Res)*2 = 80). If it's LB enabled, any Mag or Spd asset Einherjar Nostanks can ORKO him without double.

FP2's enemy boss and some of nearby GK/Paladins don't move.

Send 4 Tank+Carrier = 8 units to block the bridges (and reinforces in later turns), you can sweep the rest within 1st turn.

Although you just have 3 in-game units to perform the conversations, it's the safest strategy.

Repeat once again: 55% Sol without insane resistance = Celica Tank meets Aegis/Aegis+ without DS = higher risk to die.

I dunno about you, but I wouldn't recommend a strategy based on one specific weapon that's ONLY gotten from event tiles, and even then at a 2% chance (and that's assuming you even get an item in the first place).

The boss DOES move, but it happens to be several turns in (probably when Brady and Yarne leave the map; I only played the map once).

[Rin]

What's a good pairing plan for all characters if playing as Female Avatar in Lunatic/Lunatic+ run no grind please? Thank you.

Edited April 28, 2014 by Rin

[Roivann]

Chrom works wonders in the earlygame, and can continue to be useful throughout. The only problem is that it doesn't let Lucina marry Morgan.

[Rin]

Thank you, but I mean all the pairs if it's not much of a trouble : ( I edited my first post just to avoid confusion.

Edited April 28, 2014 by Rin

[Roivann]

Thank you, but I mean all the pairs if it's not much of a trouble : ( I edited my first post just to avoid confusion.

Oh, sorry. There's people more qualified than me on this subject, in that case, so I'll leave this one to them.