Alastor15243 Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 So what's the preferred flaw when you're going +Skill, generally? Specifically, what do you recommend I make my flaw if I'm going for a +Skill Lon'Qu!Yarne!Morgan? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czar_Yoshi Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 -Def for postgame, -Mag for ingame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alastor15243 Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 -Def for postgame, -Mag for ingame. Alright, I would've guessed Luck, since the majority of the stat losses for it are meaningless, just -1 to str and mag. Why is Def considered better? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czar_Yoshi Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Def doesn't even lose that. Just 3 Def, 1 Lck and 1 Res. Defensive modifiers are completely meaningless in Apo if played right (you would need <30 Def to be OHKOed by Thronie; the strongest non-Vengeance hitter in the game, and with LB/Rally that's practically impossible to fall under), and they don't even have an effect in the back of a pairup (well, fractions of percents of Dual Guards, but those mean nothing either). The only thing -Def does that will actually harm your performance is cost you 0.5 Hit due to lowering your Lck, which may even be rounded down to 0. Lck hurts both your offenses, as well as lowering Lck more than Def does. It's only superior ingame on higher difficulties as having a Def-gimped Avatar is a big pain for Lunatic(+). The only postgame pairing I prefer +Skl/-Lck on is Avatar x Nowi, because with Skl's Def boost and no Def penalty on Avatar, Morgan/Nah's Def is good enough to be an asset on non-Apo maps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 (edited) Lck hurts both your offenses, as well as lowering Lck more than Def does. It's only superior ingame on higher difficulties as having a Def-gimped Avatar is a big pain for Lunatic(+). The only postgame pairing I prefer +Skl/-Lck on is Avatar x Nowi, because with Skl's Def boost and no Def penalty on Avatar, Morgan/Nah's Def is good enough to be an asset on non-Apo maps. The issue I have with this is that using a Lck flaw on Lunatic(+) is just asking for trouble. Also, Skill is the absolute last consideration I'd use for the asset on said difficulties. Edited August 25, 2014 by Levant Caprice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czar_Yoshi Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Yeah, Lunatic+ with no intentions of doing postgame is a completely different can of worms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isetrh Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 (edited) Sorry I'm breaking my promise to go away, but I had an idea that seems amazing to me and I would like to know if it's anywhere near as good as it seems. Please let me know if I'm annoying. +Skill-Defense FeMU @ Sniper (52 Skill) x Gregor/Frederick!Yarne @ Assassin (53+7) total 112 Skill Yarne!Morgan @ Sniper (57+8) x Gaius!Noire @ Sniper (50) total 115 This gives two 100% DS pairs without having to make any large sacrifices. FeMU, Yarne, and Noire all take AS+2. This means FeMU can't proc-stack, unfortunately. If one of the Snipers needs to have 75 Speed, Morgan can be an Assassin. So what so you think? Edited August 25, 2014 by isetrh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czar_Yoshi Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Sounds good to me. Though I'm not sure where you're getting 112/115 from (160 is needed for 100%, or 80 per unit. What's that cover and what doesn't it cover?). Questions don't annoy me, by the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isetrh Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Oh, I guess I could have written the numbers a better way. I was including pre-LB listed stats and pair-up bonuses, because I usually think of it as reaching 116 with those. If you think it's good then I'll go for it. Thanks. That's a relief. I was worried that I was being a bit of a nuisance by coming here for confirmation on every little change I was thinking of making. Speaking of which, I have another question. With RLM and FeMU out of the equation on the magic side of things, would this be a good setup? Sumia!Lucina x Libra!Owain Chrom!Cynthia x Ricken!Laurent Henry!Nah x Lon'qu!Brady I put Owain with Lucina because I thought maybe not having to be as careful due to 100% DS would make his Vengeance more potent. One last thing, actually: Should Morgan switch out Vengeance for Ignis since his wife also has Vengeance? Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelonGx Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 (edited) Gains nothing notable stat or skillwise, can't marry Lucina. ...Yes, Chrom!Morgan is the worst. Chrom!Morgan < VGM/RLM but VGM/RLM < FeMU!Lucina.For VVDS+ leading, FeMU!Lucina x anyone > Olivia!Lucina x VGM/RLM because Olivia!Lucina doesn't have Vengeance but both FeMU!Lucina and her husband have. For VVDS+ supporting, RLM x Maribelle!Lucina (+10 x +3) is still inferior to Henry!Owain x FeMU!Lucina (+4 x +5) because 10/2+3*2 < 4/2+5*2. (RLM's Mag is seriously restricted by Aegis+ and he has to be lead.) (If RLM supports, the Lucina x RLM pair is no longer tankable but restricted to Galeforce + Aether + Luna hit & away usage, though this could be more powerful than Aether!Morgan x supporter.) On the other hand, Chrom!Morgan is as "bad" as Ricken!Owain :P For +Mag -Def, it's 2/5/2/4/1/-3/1 BTW, clearing Apo SR with FeMU x Chrom + (either Rally or LB) has been already achieved. Edited August 25, 2014 by MelonGx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czar_Yoshi Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Avatar!Lucina may be able to lead a potent VVDS+ pair, but at the cost of one of the worst Morgans in the game. Avatar-M leading Maribelle!Lucina, on the other hand, can lead a practically equal VVDS+ pair while producing one of the best Morgans in the game. For VVDS+ supporting, RLM x Maribelle!Lucina (+10 x +3) is still inferior to Henry!Owain x FeMU!Lucina (+4 x +5) because 10/2+3*2 < 4/2+5*2.(RLM's Mag is seriously restricted by Aegis+ and he has to be lead.) Raw output doesn't matter. Hitting benchmarks does. That's like gimping one child for the sake of boosting another's Spd from 75 to 80. And even if it causes you to miss some benchmark that only applies to Thronie, having to smack one enemy before finishing him on a challenge run is worth it for an extra highly capable unit. On the other hand, Chrom!Morgan is as "bad" as Ricken!Owain :P Performance of Awakening's units isn't measured in good and bad, it's measured in good and better. In terms of potential, which is what matters, Morgan has much higher potential than Owain does, and this particular Morgan happens to be near the bottom of his stack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isetrh Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Is it bad to have a double Vengeance pair? With all the crazy Secret Apo challenge runs people have managed, has anyone ever tried no pair-up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airship Canon Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 With all the crazy Secret Apo challenge runs people have managed, has anyone ever tried no pair-up? No Pair up at full power is a joke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isetrh Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Well then. I didn't realize Awakening postgame was quite that broken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alastor15243 Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 I heard something about Valkyrie being a valuable magical support class. I'm a bit confused by that, can somebody explain? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airship Canon Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 (edited) Well then. I didn't realize Awakening postgame was quite that broken. ...Apotheosis is sorely undertuned for what it's supposed to be. Every enemy in there is, for the most part, 20 Points weaker in nearly every stat [and particularly their defenses] than what they should be. Reason why I say 20 points... well I can beat it without Limit Breaker and Rallies, no? ...Why can I do that? Well... it's the map is undertuned. Sure it takes a well built team. ...ahem, the map is supposed to require "Your strongest soldiers and your ultimate stratagem–this map will require both."... ...and face it, team building IS Strategy. It's not on-the-field, but planning things out, especially considering Awakening ISN'T FE4 and lays things out for you pretty well-- that's... Strategy. ...however, Apoth is indeed poorly designed and doesn't require base strategy outside of "don't be an idiot" [seriously if you fail at Apoth at full power... something is wrong]. I heard something about Valkyrie being a valuable magical support class. I'm a bit confused by that, can somebody explain? Two deals: As an actual support, it's basically Dark Flier that offers 1 more RES at the cost of 1 SPD. ...Dark Flier is better if available (SPD > RES; Dark Fliers get more SKL and thus have better DS rates). As field support [i.E. Staffbot] it is a mounted Staff user that can carry tomes to power a Tomefaire for extra range. >_>; [instead of Falcoknights have less MAG and requiring Shockstick to get a +MAG Faire] Edited August 25, 2014 by Airship Canon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alastor15243 Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 ...Apotheosis is sorely undertuned for what it's supposed to be. Every enemy in there is, for the most part, 20 Points weaker in nearly every stat [and particularly their defenses] than what they should be. Reason why I say 20 points... well I can beat it without Limit Breaker and Rallies, no? ...Why can I do that? Well... it's the map is undertuned. Sure it takes a well built team. ...ahem, the map is supposed to require "Your strongest soldiers and your ultimate stratagem–this map will require both."... ...and face it, team building IS Strategy. It's not on-the-field, but planning things out, especially considering Awakening ISN'T FE4 and lays things out for you pretty well-- that's... Strategy. ...however, Apoth is indeed poorly designed and doesn't require base strategy outside of "don't be an idiot" [seriously if you fail at Apoth at full power... something is wrong]. Two deals: As an actual support, it's basically Dark Flier that offers 1 more RES at the cost of 1 SPD. ...Dark Flier is better if available (SPD > RES; Dark Fliers get more SKL and thus have better DS rates). As field support [i.E. Staffbot] it is a mounted Staff user that can carry tomes to power a Tomefaire for extra range. >_>; [instead of Falcoknights have less MAG and requiring Shockstick to get a +MAG Faire] Thanks. Do you think that brave weapons might have something to do with the poor balance of Apotheosis? How is Apotheosis without braves? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isetrh Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 I'm trying to perfect my +Skill -Def Gerome!Yarne!Morgan x Gaius!Noire plan, and I have a couple of questions. I have 4 Snipers in my current plan (FeMU married to Assassin Yarne, Stahl!Inigo married to Paladin Kjelle, and Morgan x Noire both Snipers) , but none of them hit 75 Speed. Either Noire or Morgan could switch to Assassin to let the other get 75 Speed while maintaining 100% DS. Is it worth it to have one less Sniper in exchange for the other getting 75 Speed? Currently my 75 Speed units are Sumia, Lon'qu!Brady (married to Henry!Nah), and Virion!Severa @ Wyvern Lord (married to Vaike!Gerome). I had the idea of using -Mag instead of -Def. This would increase FeMU's and Morgan's Hit by 0.5. This is only worth it as long as Morgan is using Vengeance rather than Ignis, and his wife is also using Vengeance. The Speed loss doesn't affect any benchmarks unless Noire turns into an Assassin. What should I do? Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czar_Yoshi Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 I heard something about Valkyrie being a valuable magical support class. I'm a bit confused by that, can somebody explain? It's Henry!Nah's best +Mag/Spd support (she also has Bride, but that gives 1 less Mag and she doesn't have a Faire for it). It also has the highest Spd (by 1) of any Tome-using class, which I haven't currently found a use for but could be helpful. Thanks. Do you think that brave weapons might have something to do with the poor balance of Apotheosis? How is Apotheosis without braves? Fairly easy as well (ask Tables, I think he did this) with a completely maxed but not particularly pairing-optimized team. Where stuff gets more interesting is no Pairup or Braves. Your offense is low enough that you can't reliably (if at all) ORKO stuff, making Galeforce less useful, which opens up a lot of new teambuilding possibilities. Assassins and Snipers: Yes, it is worth it for one of Morgan/Noire to change. Doubling Anna with a Longbow is required to get an ORKO on her, and you also get to use Brave Swords on the Assassin which is very helpful for NS. On units with 80+ Skl, Hit should never be an issue. I wouldn't worry about a 0.5 loss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isetrh Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Assassins and Snipers: Yes, it is worth it for one of Morgan/Noire to change. Doubling Anna with a Longbow is required to get an ORKO on her, and you also get to use Brave Swords on the Assassin which is very helpful for NS. On units with 80+ Skl, Hit should never be an issue. I wouldn't worry about a 0.5 loss. Okay, I'll have Morgan be an Assassin then. Should he still use Bowfaire? Well, he doesn't have 80 when he's in the back. I know it's a minor thing, but I want my units to be perfect. It's mostly a question of whether he should use Ignis or Vengeance. I would go immediately to Vengeance if ir weren't for the fact that his wife already uses Vengeance and I don't know if a double Vengeance pair is a good idea or not. He also has 87% activation rate, so that's something. Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czar_Yoshi Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Swordfaire will be better. Double vengeance is fine. It makes it slightly harder to store a high Vengeance charge in the back while bringing out the other unit for threats that could potentially damage you, but if you're good at juggling the damage you take, then it's potentially very powerful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alastor15243 Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Fairly easy as well (ask Tables, I think he did this) with a completely maxed but not particularly pairing-optimized team. Where stuff gets more interesting is no Pairup or Braves. Your offense is low enough that you can't reliably (if at all) ORKO stuff, making Galeforce less useful, which opens up a lot of new teambuilding possibilities. No pairup? Does this mean that units standing next to each other is banned, or is adjacent dual strike permitted? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isetrh Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Swordfaire will be better. Wait, really? I thought Bows were supposed to be the best weapon type. Isn't WTD against Anna bad? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czar_Yoshi Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Bows are good, but they're not omnipotent. You can't use them to safely take down NS, for one (and he's a much harder target than Anna, so it's better to use your Faire on him). Since 100% DS pairs are usually a bit single-minded (almost always physical, usually lots of Bows) I just prefer to keep them as varied as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isetrh Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 (edited) That makes sense, thanks! I will use Swordfaire. Defense flaw after all so I have the option to use Ignis if I change my mind. Should Morgan bring a Bow to switch to against Anna or just stick with Swords? Could you (or anyone else) help me with my magic pairs too? Sumia!Lucina x Libra!Owain Chrom!Cynthia x Ricken!Laurent Henry!Nah x Lon'qu!Brady Owain is with Lucina so he can go in with low health if he has a guaranteed kill. Brady gets 75 Speed and 3 extra points of Luna activation for what it's worth. I know Ricken!Laurent isn't as good when he's not Morgan's dad, but I don't see a better way to use Ricken, unless Brady would appreciate the extra Magic more. Edited August 26, 2014 by isetrh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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