PAIRINGS The Pairing Thread

[Czar_Yoshi]

Dark Flier for sure.

[Sorin]

Okay, thank you.

[Ownagepuffs]

Sage and Sniper are also good alternatives

[burgerkong]

So, it's been a while since I posted here, and I'm almost fully-prepped for Apotheosis. I have to grind Golden Gaffe a few more times for extra $ for forges, but aside from that I'm pretty much set.

I've compiled a couple of Google docs for my current team. The spreadsheet is a bit unwieldy to look at, but my team can be seen & summarized in the Doc.

Doc

Spreadsheet

I've also started compiling a list of statistics & thresholds, which I might as well share so that others can see & correct me if there's any mistake:

Apo Data Doc

Everything's pretty much set in stone, but any tips for future runs would be appreciated :D

This will be my first time doing Apotheosis, so any general tips on how to go about it would also be appreciated (particularly efficient Rallybot placement, Rescue usage, and how to resupply weapons once Braves start breaking).

[Ownagepuffs]

Zerg rush on PP, rescue out of enemy range for EP. It's simple but it works.

[burgerkong]

Zerg rush on PP, rescue out of enemy range for EP. It's simple but it works.

Yeah, that's what I figured. It's just that I only have 3 Staffbots (4 Rescues total with Olivia), so with my team of 7 pairs I can't rescue everyone, though I guess Galepairs can always run back after killing 2 enemies.

I'm finishing grinding out supports for my Apo team (since they're only for adjacent units IIRC, they're pretty situational), but I'm wondering if I need to do so for hard supporters? Laurent & Yarne will likely never see the light of day as the lead unit, so is getting supports aside from marriage worthless for them?

[Hunter Nightblood]

Okay, so I'm thinking about having Stahl marrying Cordelia to give Severa an extremely versatile class and skill set. So, what are the disadvantages to doing this?

[Alastor15243]

Okay, so I'm thinking about having Stahl marrying Cordelia to give Severa an extremely versatile class and skill set. So, what are the disadvantages to doing this?

Mostly that you can't use Stahl on Gerome or Yarne. Also, THAT HAIR. The color looks horrible on Severa.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Yeah, that's what I figured. It's just that I only have 3 Staffbots (4 Rescues total with Olivia), so with my team of 7 pairs I can't rescue everyone, though I guess Galepairs can always run back after killing 2 enemies.

I'm finishing grinding out supports for my Apo team (since they're only for adjacent units IIRC, they're pretty situational), but I'm wondering if I need to do so for hard supporters? Laurent & Yarne will likely never see the light of day as the lead unit, so is getting supports aside from marriage worthless for them?

Non-S supports don't make a very big difference in Apo. If you're going to be support grinding, do it somewhere where you can take it all the way to S for your support log.

With a full team, you'll generally want to play it safe with some pairs getting rescued and some running away until there are few enough enemies that you can kill everything in one turn.

Okay, so I'm thinking about having Stahl marrying Cordelia to give Severa an extremely versatile class and skill set. So, what are the disadvantages to doing this?

Hair failure and it turns Severa into a fairly generic Luna/Astra skirmisher unable to take advantage of Cordelia's main assets (she's pretty much another Donnel!Kjelle with slightly more Str. There's nothing strictly bad about that, but it's a big opportunity loss. If you want a Luna Severa, use Vaike and get 1 more Spd/Str. If you're fine with Vengeance, use Virion/Lon'qu and run Wyvern (or, in Lon'qu's case, Hero with a Warrior/General support).

Outside of Apo, though, Stahl gives Paladin which is a nice class (though Severa's not lacking in good ending classes for non-Apo postgame so it's not terribly important). Severa's only other remotely common father to give that is Ricken.

[Hunter Nightblood]

Non-S supports don't make a very big difference in Apo. If you're going to be support grinding, do it somewhere where you can take it all the way to S for your support log.

With a full team, you'll generally want to play it safe with some pairs getting rescued and some running away until there are few enough enemies that you can kill everything in one turn.

Hair failure and it turns Severa into a fairly generic Luna/Astra skirmisher unable to take advantage of Cordelia's main assets (she's pretty much another Donnel!Kjelle with slightly more Str. There's nothing strictly bad about that, but it's a big opportunity loss. If you want a Luna Severa, use Vaike and get 1 more Spd/Str. If you're fine with Vengeance, use Virion/Lon'qu and run Wyvern (or, in Lon'qu's case, Hero with a Warrior/General support).

Outside of Apo, though, Stahl gives Paladin which is a nice class (though Severa's not lacking in good ending classes for non-Apo postgame so it's not terribly important). Severa's only other remotely common father to give that is Ricken.

I see. I was thinking more along the lines of Vantage+Vengeance+Luna though. Or, to be exact, a unit who I can modify their skill set to easy adapt to situations whose name is not Morgan.

Is the hair really that bad?

[Alastor15243]

Is the hair really that bad?

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-hfXAGGmNhrQ/UySF0KhLMRI/AAAAAAAAB38/yaPrCJ7_t2U/w316-h400-no/Stahl%2521Severa.jpg

You be the judge.

[Demigami]

What is a good final class for Gaius!Brady,Stahl!Kjelle and Libra!Noire? Also which class is better for a Vaike!Gerome Wyvern Lord or Berserker?

Gerome's skills

Lancebreaker

Counter

Axefaire

Renewal

Swordbreaker

[Diabeasty]

If you're fine with Vengeance, use Virion/Lon'qu and run Wyvern (or, in Lon'qu's case, Hero with a Warrior/General support).

Is there any particular reason why you recommend Hero Lon'Qu!Severa over Wyvern Lord? Just wondering.

What is a good final class for Gaius!Brady,Stahl!Kjelle and Libra!Noire? Also which class is better for a Vaike!Gerome Wyvern Lord or Berserker?

Gerome's skills

Lancebreaker

Counter

Axefaire

Renewal

Swordbreaker

Brady will want to be a Sage, Kjelle is probably going to want to be a Paladin, Assassin, or Sniper, and Noire should probably be a Sage. Vaike!Gerome should probably be a Berserker, that +7 STR is pretty much the whole reason you use that pairing.

[Hunter Nightblood]

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-hfXAGGmNhrQ/UySF0KhLMRI/AAAAAAAAB38/yaPrCJ7_t2U/w316-h400-no/Stahl%2521Severa.jpg

You be the judge.

Okay, it really is that bad.

[Owain_the_swordsman]

Okay, it really is that bad.

Who even cares about hair color?We're talking about pairings that will benefit the children's skills, stats,classes,etc. If you want to talk about pairings you like just because of hair color, make a post about it.

[Alastor15243]

Who even cares about hair color?We're talking about pairings that will benefit the children's skills, stats,classes,etc. If you want to talk about pairings you like just because of hair color, make a post about it.

Apotheosis really isn't hard enough to justify going for a pairing you hate aesthetically, whether it be for hair color or the relationship of the parents, just to get a slightly better optimization. Besides, none of us have said that the hair color is the ONLY reason not to pair Stahl with Cordelia.

[Czar_Yoshi]

I see. I was thinking more along the lines of Vantage+Vengeance+Luna though. Or, to be exact, a unit who I can modify their skill set to easy adapt to situations whose name is not Morgan.

Vengeance/Luna is one of those comboes that is actually harmful to your performance in some cases, and it certainly will be useless with Vantage on a female with no Faire. If you were to run Stahl!Severa, she'd typically stack Luna/Astra and be a Hero, Sniper or Paladin.

Is there any particular reason why you recommend Hero Lon'Qu!Severa over Wyvern Lord? Just wondering.

Wyvern Lord is great on both of them, but Hero is also a strong option for Lon'qu!Severa in that, with All+2, she reaches 75 Spd even with a pairup that doesn't boost Spd (Fred!Inigo@General, Stahl!Gerome@Warrior and Virion!Yarne@Sniper come to mind as good candidates). I wouldn't recommend one over the other for general usage, though.

Who even cares about hair color?We're talking about pairings that will benefit the children's skills, stats,classes,etc. If you want to talk about pairings you like just because of hair color, make a post about it.

There are cases where you've got two otherwise equal choices and aesthetics is simply the easiest way to decide.

Then there are cases where you've got one pair that's marginally better than another, and you decide to show off your damage mitigation skills by finding ways to make the difference not matter, essentially using aesthetics to make building your team more interesting. I did this a lot in my 100% DS team- I had some extra resources and chose to spend them on making my team pretty.

And then there are cases like Stahl!Severa and Inigo x Nah that are just so hideous and appalling that you don't even take them into consideration. After all, if aesthetics had no impact on your enjoyment of the game, you'd stick to playing it on paper...

Edited November 21, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi

[burgerkong]

I see. I was thinking more along the lines of Vantage+Vengeance+Luna though. Or, to be exact, a unit who I can modify their skill set to easy adapt to situations whose name is not Morgan.

Is the hair really that bad?

Vantage & Vengeance shouldn't be used in the same moveset with Luna, so this isn't exactly an advantage when it comes to Apotheosis. Really, there's no need to "adapt" to any situations since you should have superior stats to the opponent. If you're just talking about flexibility for in-game role, it's a cute notion, but flexibility isn't really necessary if you can simply overpower your foes statistically.

Stahl!Severa's main selling points are access to Luna, Astra, and several high-skill classes (Sniper & Assassin) for 100% DS. In the role of Sniper, she's functionally similar to Gaius!Noire, but her 1 less speed means that, unlike Gaius!Noire, she needs AS+2 to hit the 69 Speed threshold with any non-Speed pair up partner (i.e. Sage). Her Skill is higher by 2 though, so she's somewhat better for 100% DS.

Is there any particular reason why you recommend Hero Lon'Qu!Severa over Wyvern Lord? Just wondering.

Lon'qu grants Swordfaire, and Hero has the same skill cap as Assassin and can achieve 75 Speed regardless of pair up partner with AS+2 (which is likely to be used if you're going for a 100% DS pair). At least, that's my assumption anyway, I've been theorycrafting for my next playthrough :P

EDIT: Whoops, didn't notice that Czar had responded to this already, had this window open for a couple of hours :(

But yeah, @Czar, what else would you run on Lon'qu!Cynthia with Virion!Gerome Sniper support (100% DS)? Right now I have GF/Vengeance/Swordfaire/AS+2, but if you have any other advice/tips I would appreciate it.

Edited November 21, 2014 by burgerkong

[Czar_Yoshi]

If you're just talking about flexibility for in-game role, it's a cute notion, but flexibility isn't really necessary if you can simply overpower your foes statistically.

It's never necessary, but it sure is fun.

I'm the kind of player who loads up TTYD Cht.3 and can never decide whether to change my entire set each battle (including shop visits) to be built around Grubba's restrictions, or just barrel through with the same set over and over again until he conforms to what I want to do (taking his money in the process).

To add one more thing to the "aesthetics in high-level teams" thing, specifically avoiding a pairing you don't like is much easier to work into a team with no harm done than specifically trying to include one that you do like- or at least much less likely to cause a big hullabaloo. in some cases trying to avoid these pairings even brings out new strategies- avoiding Inigo x Nah is a big part of why Nahs do anything except stats only hard support.

But yeah, @Czar, what else would you run on Lon'qu!Cynthia with Virion!Gerome Sniper support (100% DS)? Right now I have GF/Vengeance/Swordfaire/AS+2, but if you have any other advice/tips I would appreciate it.

As a Hero? That's a pretty good base set, but if you can do it without dropping any KOes, you might want to look into swapping either SF or All+2 for Deliverer (and possibly AT). All+2 would cost you 75 Spd, so only do it if you're strong enough to 6HKO Anna and Thronie (with the Vengeance boost incurred from attacking them, you very well might be). Deliverer is the top choice because having low Mov on your most powerful pair stinks, and AT is for Ragnell which is a nice toy when you're fast.

Edited November 21, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi

[Knusperkeks]

Lon'qu!Cynthia is impossible.

[Alastor15243]

Lon'qu!Cynthia is impossible.

Pretty sure he meant severa.

[burgerkong]

Lon'qu!Cynthia is impossible.

Pretty sure he meant severa.

Yep, typo on my part.

@Czar: Hopefully it's OK asking these here, but I was wondering if you might answer a few more questions before I try Apo.

I'm currently grinding out gold for my final few Braves, but exactly how many do you estimate I'd need on a full team per character? I have a full set of 5 per character atm and am planning on forging a few more each as spares, but I'm unsure if this is enough, especially for the hard supports (Yarne, Laurent).

Also, I've been grinding Infinite Regalia as well, and have gotten a couple of goodies (2nd Valflame for my Celica staffbot) but for the most part get stuff like Luna & Astra weapons. For my two Sniper pairs, should I just surrender and give them max Mt forged Longbows? I have 1 Double Bow by virtue of the wireless box, but neither of the pairings run AT so durability might be a problem.

Also, brainstorming for my next runthrough already, since I was bored in class yesterday:

Brainstorming for Run 2 - Sumia!Lucina

Haven't even started the file yet, so any pairing suggestions aside from Lucina X Avatar is fine (including Lucina's mom)

Edited November 21, 2014 by burgerkong

[DragonFlames]

When I pair myself with Nowi to make Nah a second Morgan (you know: double the badassery means... double the badassery), what asset/flaw should I choose to optimize the two children? I always went with HP as an asset and Luck as Flaw to get the mods on defense and resistance for them, but it kinda leaves my Avatar in the dust. What asset/flaw would you recommend if I want to have two Ignis Manaketes?

Edited November 21, 2014 by DragonFlames

[Czar_Yoshi]

@Czar: Hopefully it's OK asking these here, but I was wondering if you might answer a few more questions before I try Apo.

I'm currently grinding out gold for my final few Braves, but exactly how many do you estimate I'd need on a full team per character? I have a full set of 5 per character atm and am planning on forging a few more each as spares, but I'm unsure if this is enough, especially for the hard supports (Yarne, Laurent).

Also, I've been grinding Infinite Regalia as well, and have gotten a couple of goodies (2nd Valflame for my Celica staffbot) but for the most part get stuff like Luna & Astra weapons. For my two Sniper pairs, should I just surrender and give them max Mt forged Longbows? I have 1 Double Bow by virtue of the wireless box, but neither of the pairings run AT so durability might be a problem.

Also, brainstorming for my next runthrough already, since I was bored in class yesterday:

Brainstorming for Run 2 - Sumia!Lucina

Haven't even started the file yet, so any pairing suggestions aside from Lucina X Avatar is fine (including Lucina's mom)

S.Apo has 90 enemies (including Wave 0). If we assume that every enemy takes no more than 6 hits to KO (this is a very high estimate- most will go down in 4 or so on No Holds Barred), you'll need at least 540 weapon uses. Split that up evenly among 8 Attack pairs and you'll need 67.5 weapon uses. Obviously, you're not going to perfectly distribute your kills, and units in the back will be using weapons faster than ones in the front, so you'll need to have significantly more than that- I'd say 30-40 uses for leads (one Brave/two Celica's) and 60 uses for the support (two Braves/three Celica's) will be enough. Double Galepairs will want 60 on both, and units with higher Mov are likely to see a little more use than units without. So if you have a full five for each unit, I'd say you're definitely prepared- you probably need no more than five spares in the Convoy (if there is a pair that completely dominates your useage and burns through all five, it might be easier to restock from Chrom than by taking someone else's weapons).

Note that that's all purely theoretical and you'll get a much better idea of what is needed after a few playthroughs of Apo.

IR is a massive pain, on my first postgame file I ground it for about 3 weeks and only got one DB (plenty of Troll Axes, though). I'd highly recommend sticking to forged Longbows on anything not equipped with AT.

When I pair myself with Nowi to make Nah a second Morgan (you know: double the badassery means... double the badassery), what asset/flaw should I choose to optimize the two children? I always went with HP as an asset and Luck as Flaw to get the mods on defense and resistance for them, but it kinda leaves my Avatar in the dust. What asset/flaw would you recommend if I want to have two Ignis Manaketes?

Nowi's stats don't really fit well with any of Avatar's options for conventional sets- either you wind up with all mods being meh, or you miss out on some really important stat. If you're trying to do Apo, +Skl/-Def is probably your best bet, for maingame you can try +Str/-Lck or +Def/-Skl (+HP/-Lck is actually a good option too).

Marrying Nowi leaves your Avatar in the dust either way outside maingame Hard/Lunatic because she's got an atrocious skillset, expensive weapon and is overall one of the worst wives in the game with children and growths taken out of consideration.

[DragonFlames]

Nowi's stats don't really fit well with any of Avatar's options for conventional sets- either you wind up with all mods being meh, or you miss out on some really important stat. If you're trying to do Apo, +Skl/-Def is probably your best bet, for maingame you can try +Str/-Lck or +Def/-Skl (+HP/-Lck is actually a good option too).

Marrying Nowi leaves your Avatar in the dust either way outside maingame Hard/Lunatic because she's got an atrocious skillset, expensive weapon and is overall one of the worst wives in the game with children and growths taken out of consideration.

Okay, I almost thought so. My Avatar ended up being pretty mediocre with +HP/-Luck. I married Nowi in my first file by accident (had no idea that you could marry anyone and just paired up with her to preserve her Dragonstone and then just before chapter 13, they ended up getting married). Never married her again, but I recently looked back at my first file (which I still have for some reason) and I thought "Hey, maybe this pairing can do better" but eh... I don't really want to be accused of pedophilia so... in hindsight, I probably won't do that again (no means no, right?). Thinking about marrying Sumia in my next file to get a strong Dark Flier mage Cynthia. Is +Magic/-Strength a good approach for this if I want to mainly use magic as a Grandmaster and get Cynthia and Morgan to have good stats with Sumia as a mother?