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You could say the exact same thing with dlc/rallies/pair up. Yet, you don't seem to have a problem using those or "keeping them on the table."

I've never attempted a no DLC or no Pairup run of apotheosis (Though I did do a no rally run with brave weapons, and it was very, very easy), but the thing about banning brave weapons is that it's the only challenge run I know of that actually EXPANDS your options rather than reduces them. It vastly increases the variety of weapons you'll want to make use of, and thus it's probably the most fun of the challenge runs, and Brave weapons are definitely more overpowered than either rallies or limit breaker on their own. The only comparable challenge is getting rid of Pairup.

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Since I haven't done a no brave, I'm sure it has merit. It certainly sounds like a challenge worthy of time, however, i also think you are too quick to judge other challenges. If no rally/yes dlc was too easy for you, then perhaps you should invest some time into no dlc. -30 Attack on males/-20 Attack on females is a pretty substantial blow to straight offense than the simple rally ban.

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Since I haven't done a no brave, I'm sure it has merit. It certainly sounds like a challenge worthy of time, however, i also think you are too quick to judge other challenges. If no rally/yes dlc was too easy for you, then perhaps you should invest some time into no dlc. -30 Attack on males/-20 Attack on females is a pretty substantial blow to straight offense than the simple rally ban.

Fair enough. I guess the real point is that without challenge runs PERIOD, there's absolutely no point in any concern for breeding besides galeforce, so I recommended the challenge run I was most familiar with and thus could give the best advice about.

Edited by Alastor15243
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Also, can you check that list I added to my post with the good classes, see if I missed any?

I don't see any missing classes, but...

-Assassin: also has one of the best distributions in the game. Pretty much all the children can or do have it, and a lot of good fathers give it too.

-Dread Fighter: its Mag is tied with none for the worst in the game of any Tome-using class, and 3 points below the nearest competitor (DK). It's still Tome access, but the Tomes are the selling point, not the Mag stat.

-Bride: has the caveat of coming from the rarest DLC pack among players who only have some of the DLC, so its distribution could be considered poor.

-Paladin: the special thing about its pairup bonuses is that it's one of the only classes (alongside GM, Valkyrie and Bride) that gives exactly +2 Spd, and it's also the only 8-Mov class to boost both Spd and Str.

-Sage: not relating to the class itself but Laurent is the only 2nd gen unit in the game to have native Berserker and a +Hit skill, so he can fill that role surprisingly well (especially since Gregor patches up his Str nicely).

-Valkyrie: its selling point isn't the lack of a flying weakness, it's the +1 Spd over DF. Nightmare Sniper will paste you whether you're weak to flying or not.

-Falco: highest Skl 8-Mov class -> good for leading a 100% DS pair.

-Monk: it's not very good. You're axe-locked like Berserker but have 10 less Str and only 3 more Skl to compensate. The pairup bonuses are also a good deal worse, giving only +2 Str, no Spd and still no Skl. And since Berserker is tied to Axefaire which you'd want to have to even consider it, it's distribution is effectively eclipsed by Berserker too (in fact, only Brady and Gerome have it instead of Berserker at base). Basically the Swordmaster of Axes.

What do you define as non-trivial joke? Chance based?

I know this wasn't directed at me but my definition of a good challenge is something I a) haven't done before and b) won't be able to do effectively by just jumping in with my current team- aka something I need to plan and prepare for.

Of course, there's the inherent caveat that once I've done the challenge, it stops fitting those criteria and thus isn't a challenge (for me) anymore. Fortunately, this game has a lot of material to draw on to come up with new ones.

Edited by Czar_Yoshi
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I actually started a new game (although I've kept my old one in case I want to come back to it).

I'm currently doing a no-grind Hard mode run for the main story (I've found that to be what I have the most fun with in-story).

But after the story, I'm drafting up plans for no-DLC Apotheosis (besides the map itself). I have the DLC, I'm just not going to use it in the actual map (using Paragon to make training for said map go faster will be fair game, that said).

Oh, and I'm also going to restrict myself so that only characters among the 49 characters who can form supports may be deployed on the map… no bonus box legacy characters or DLC characters allowed.

I'm going to impose two pairings as non-negotiable as points of personal preference:

Avatar x Cordelia

Chrom x Sumia

Also, as a point of personal preference, I insist on using a +Mag Avatar. I'm also going to use -Def (I feel -Str or -Def are the ones that are most fitting for how I envision my character, and I did -Str last time).

Beyond these points that I don't want to compromise on, I want to work out a no-DLC team that will be able to win.

This is some of my thoughts, however: Any changes or suggestions to improve upon them?

1. Avatar is forced into male Rally Bot rule as without Bonus Box units either he or one of his daughters needs to provide Rally Spectrum and I don't want to waste a Morgan on that.

2. Cordelia probably falls into a Hex/Anathema Falcon Knight support unit role for that map… particularly against Anna, she can park herself right in front of her with Hex/Anathema to drop her Avoid by 25 as well as then letting her daughters (Severa and Morgan) stand next to their mother as they attack Anna, gaining an additional +5 Hit from the 4 dual support levels than an A-rank constitutes.

3. Morgan and Severa have a +5 speed mod, as well as +2 Str, +4 Mag, +3 Skl, -1 Lck, -2 Def, and + 1 Resistance.

4. Outside of using Longbows (which have the disadvantage of getting half the attacks of Brave/Celica weapons), you need 58 defense (if neutral in the triangle) to survive the 85 Atk Aether Ragnell Paladin and 56 Resistance to survive the 70 Atk Luna+ Celica's Gale Sages.

5. You need 48 defense and 66 speed under such conditions to survive Anna if she gets an Aether with a spear (she'll never be allowed to use the Brave Lance thanks to rescue).

6. Dark Knight gives a base 40 Def and 39 Res after these mods. As well as 45 speed. Morgan/Severa will also get 9 move (8+1). Which will become +10 under Rally Movement.

7. Pairing with another Dark Knight and using all Rallies that aren't named Rally Heart and all tonics will provide +10 to all core non-Hp, non-move stats that aren't luck, which gets +14. This raises the key stats to 50 Def, 49 Res, and 55 Speed.

8. A generic dark Knight partner grants them +8 Def, +6 Res, and +3 speed (generic). This gives 58 Defense, 45 Resistance, and 58 speed.

9. Speed +2 and Defender elevates Speed to 61 and the defensives stats to 59 Def and 46 Res. Now they'll survive both the Paladin and the Sages.

10. Against Anna, I can trade them a Berserker partner to give them +8 speed (a net gain of +5 over Dark Knight). This will drop their defenses by 5 def and an amount of res that won't matter, to 54 defense, but will boost their speed to 66, enabling them to fight Anna.

11. A +5 strength mod Axefaire Berserker with a +3 Might/+25 Hit Brave Axe, weapon triangle advantage, and A-rank and rallies/tonics will have 87 strength… they will do 14 damage in dual strikes.

12. It is possible for such a pair-up to deplete 100 HP out of Anna as long as Morgan/Severa reach 72 attack before procs (they will have 40 + 4 +4 +2 +1 +10 = 61 strength, which means Ignis would add 30 atk [halved to +15 vs. dragon skin]. Dark Knight Magic: 45 (41 + 4 mod) + 5 (tome faire) + 2 (weapon rank bonus) + 2 (if Berskerer doesn't hit full +3 generic magic) + 7 (+3 might Celica's Gale) + 10 (tonics/rallies) +1 (Defender) = 72. After an Ingis proc, 72 + 30 = 102 attack. 102 attack - 58 defense = 44 damage before dragon skin, halved to 22 damage.

13. 2 Hits of Celica's Gale with Ignis (2 x 22) and 4 hits from Berskerer dual strike (4 x 14) sums up to 100 damage. Anna dies.

14. The chance of this happening hinges on 2 Ingis procs and two dual strike procs. Ignis is at 57%. Dual strike ranges from 75%-85% (roughly) depending if on whether the Berserker is their A-rank or S-rank. This yields a roughly 18%-23% chance of slaying Anna outright in the first engagement without DLC and while guaranteed to survive.

15. That means that there is a 77-82% chance of Anna surviving the first round. Which is why Morgan/Severa's sister will then follow up with another Berserker partner to attack the weakened Anna and quite possibly finish her off.

16. If needed, a Recover staff and a Dance can be used to secure a 3rd set of attacks. Anna is probably dead by this point, I'd reckon.

17. Henry!Gerome and Stahl!Yarne provide the Berskerers that match this description.

18. Said Berskerers can also be paired up with Assassins who will hit 69 speed to double the Helswath Berserkers and survive them. Gaius!Noire would have 50 speed as an Assassin. Give her Speed +2, rallies/tonics, and a Berserker pair-up and she hits 70 speed. Then she has a choice of Luna/Vengance as a proc, although it will be Aegis+/Dragonskin'd.

19. Donnel!Kjelle provides another Galeforce Assassin (seeing that my fixed pair plans don't allow for Assassin Lucina) that can hit this threshold, although at the cost of another skill. Speed +2 and Defender. 46 speed +2 mod + 3 skills + 10 rally/tonic + 8 Berserker = 69 speed. She can add in Luna too, although she doesn't have Bowfaire.

20. So I'm looking at Dark Knight Morgan x Dark Knight ______, Dark Knight Severa x Dark Knight _______, Gaius!Noire x Stahl!Yarne, Henry!Gerome x Donnel!Kjelle, and I might very well want 1 more combat pair.

21. Chrom is a forced deploy, so I could run Dark Flier!Sumia x Bow Knight Chrom. With Speed+2 helping her out, she'll reach 65 speed, which is enough to double the Invinsorcs and all slower enemies.

22. Maribelle gets all female only rallies (Speed, Move, Resistance) and has access to others (Magic, Luck). She can be my female Rally bot.

23. 10 combat units + 2 ralliers + 1 Olivia + 7 dedicated staff units = 20 deployment slots.

24. Ralliers should also have staff classes so that they can be danced into a rescue or heal if needed.

25. Dedicated staff units may also want Hex/Anathema on them so that they can spread around these accuracy boosting Auras.

What do people think about the feasibility/viability of my plan?

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On my other walkthough, I took the time to think about the pairing and I feel confident with my choices. Here are the following:

FeMU x Priam!Morgan - Because I'm fucking bias, and I want my FeMU's son to be the next Radiant Hero!!!

Chrom x Olivia!Lucina - I really wanted that +2 Str mod and her Myrmidon-line inheritance (besides Galeforce).

Lissa x Ricken!Owain - Honestly, I only went for this because it was conflicting with my other choices, as I wanted Libra for Sorcerer. But I've already made plans for Brady as seen below...

Olivia x Chrom!Inigo - Seeing as how I went for Olivia!Lucina, I mind as well take advantage of Rightful King (not that it's really my intentions, but w/e).

Maribelle x Libra!Brady - It was either between Henry or Libra for Sorcerer. Though I wanted Cynthia!Henry and I had other plans for Gaius and Frederick, I blame Sumia's lack of marriage options ><

Sully x Vaike!Kjelle - Probably one of the most popular pairing choice (I think?), though tbh I never bother using her in the past, and I'll probably never gonna bother idk... : /

Sumia x Cynthia!Henry - I don't like Frederick's speed mod... : I Also, Sumia can pass down GK for Luna so theres that...

Cordelia x Lon'qu!Severa - I find it unnecessary to have Stalh as I already have Chrom!Inigo for Luna, I'm just saying.

Cheche x Gregor!Gerome - I know it seems like I should have probably gone for Stalh but the reason why I went for Gregor anyways was his Mercenary-line inheritance. Plus Cheche x Gregor is personally one of my favourite canon pairings... <_<

Panne x Frederick!Yarne - For Aegis/Pavise mainly, plus having Frederick would save me the trouble of grinding Panne since she can't pass down Wyvern lines for some reason...smh

Nowi x Donnel!Nah - Galeforce, Sol, and Armshifted +Dragonstone, I don't see why not.

Tharja x Gaius!Noire - Probably one of the most popular pairings, and my personal favourite really. I mainly use her as an Assassin since I find that it matches her personality so well and the fact that she can use bow lol

Miriel x Stahl!Laurent - This is somewhat my last-minute choice (probably not a wise-one after having second thoughts... :x)

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Sumia x Cynthia!Henry - I don't like Frederick's speed mod... : I Also, Sumia can pass down GK for Luna so theres that...

Nowi x Donnel!Nah - Galeforce, Sol, and Armshifted +Dragonstone, I don't see why not.

Bold: *insert "ahooga" horn sound here*

As to Donnel!Nah: Armsthrift is a wasted slot, because it's not like Dragonstone+ can be forged...

Edited by Levant Caprice
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On my other walkthough, I took the time to think about the pairing and I feel confident with my choices. Here are the following:

FeMU x Priam!Morgan - Because I'm fucking bias, and I want my FeMU's son to be the next Radiant Hero!!!

Sully x Vaike!Kjelle - Probably one of the most popular pairing choice (I think?), though tbh I never bother using her in the past, and I'll probably never gonna bother idk... : /

Panne x Frederick!Yarne - For Aegis/Pavise mainly, plus having Frederick would save me the trouble of grinding Panne since she can't pass down Wyvern lines for some reason...smh

Nowi x Donnel!Nah - Galeforce, Sol, and Armshifted +Dragonstone, I don't see why not.

Are these for Apotheosis? I'm assuming they are, but if not then these are fine.

For Apotheosis though:

FeMU x Priam isn't optimal of course, but it's fine. Priam doesn't grant any Speed, so I'd really recommend a +Spd/-Def MU so that Morgan can run more classes flexibly.

Vaike!Kjelle isn't too popular anymore due to lack of Galeforce. She was hyped up for Armsthrift & PavGis, neither of which is very good for Apotheosis. Her best bet is probably Axefaire Hero paired up with a Galeboy, similarly to Vaike!Nah.

Fred!Yarne is a waste unfortunately. Yarne is optimally going to be a dedicated Support unit, so stuff like PavGis is useless on him. All he wants is a father that gives him +Hit, which Virion gladly gives him.

Donnel!Nah is pretty much the worst Galeforce unit in the game due to Donnel & Nowi's terrible modifiers & class selection. She lacks a good offensive proc & Manakete is just not a good class for Apotheosis due to lack of Braves and low class caps. As Levant stated, Dragonstones are buyable and non-forgeable, so the convenience of Armsthrift is of little relevance.

Again, this is all assuming Apotheosis, otherwise you can really run whatever you want :P

Edited by burgerkong
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What do people think about the feasibility/viability of my plan?

I see a Sumia!Lucina@GL with 59/48 Spd/Def before pairup bonuses and wonder why you don't just use her and her free 100% DS to greatly simplify fighting Anna (well, not free, but 120 Skl is pretty easy to hit with Rally on the table). She can do enough to give your DKs a much greater chance of KOing.

Sully x Vaike!Kjelle - Probably one of the most popular pairing choice

Panne x Frederick!Yarne - For Aegis/Pavise mainly, plus having Frederick would save me the trouble of grinding Panne since she can't pass down Wyvern lines for some reason...smh

Nowi x Donnel!Nah - Galeforce, Sol, and Armshifted +Dragonstone, I don't see why not.

Tharja x Gaius!Noire - Probably one of the most popular pairings

Context for what you want these for? Ingame, postgame or Apo?

Kjelle: no, that one's not really popular. Vaike!Nah and Vaike!Noire are far better choices for non-GF females.

Yarne: postgame he's a hard support and ingame Paladin is better as a class than it is for Aegis and you don't want to go through General just for Pavise, so you won't see much use of him in that role. Fred is still a good filler dad on Yarne, but more for the mods, growths and availability than anything else.

Nah: GF doesn't work well on Manaketes, especially ones that lack additional offense like Ignis or Luna (because they keep dropping KOes). AT is also somewhat wasted on Dragonstones because they can't be forged, and are thus one of the cheapest weapons around to get in its most powerful form- you'd be better off using it with something that costs 10k+ G.

Noire: not exactly what I'd call popular either, but still good.

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Quick question for my brother's sake (this is for an apotheosis run later in time), would Libra!Nah be better than Kellam!Nah?

Personally, I think it would because dark mage skills and magic mods, but I'm no expert, so...

Edited by Luck Dancelot
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Well sorta, Its not really so much for Apotheosis, its also for doing speed-run in other DLC maps (like say if I want to complete a Five-Anna Firefight in less than 5 turns or something). I have completed Apotheosis on my 'Main' file but with different pairings etc.

And as for FeMU x Priam, I'm bias when it comes to this story and I'm sticking with my choice don't you judge me! >_<

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Quick question for my brother's sake (this is for an apotheosis run later in time), would Libra!Nah be better than Kellam!Nah?

Personally, I think it would because dark mage skills and magic mods, but I'm no expert, so...

Kellam!Nah's pretty bad due to the crappy Speed mod, which is insufficient to run General very well (not to mention a lack of either -faire).

Libra!Nah would be better, but still pretty meh (run as a Sage I guess with Vengeance & Dark Mage auras?). I'd consider just ditching her if she doesn't have any other quality father options available, but she's certainly still usable.

Well sorta, Its not really so much for Apotheosis, its also for doing speed-run in other DLC maps (like say if I want to complete a Five-Anna Firefight in less than 5 turns or something). I have completed Apotheosis on my 'Main' file but with different pairings etc.

And as for FeMU x Priam, I'm bias when it comes to this story and I'm sticking with my choice don't you judge me! >_<

Well in that case run whatever you want. If you're not doing Apotheosis challenge runs then you can run whatever you want, though "speedrunning" (LTC is probably what you mean) will generally involve Galeforce and access to high-mobility classes & skills.

Edited by burgerkong
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I'd put Libra and Kellam!Nah around the same utility. Both will likely be hard supports if used.

If trying for low turn counts, high Mov is pretty much at the top of your to-have list, along with lots of Falcos and Galeforce.

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The main reason why I considered Frederick!Yarne is mostly for Wyvern-inheritence Skills. As for Kellam, I actually had considerations to pair with Miriel but ended up with Stalh instead (more or less due to the mods). I'm starting to regret that decision... : /

Edited by Formerly Colm
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Nah is kind of tricky to optimize for - would going Donnel!Nah with Armsthrift, Sol, Lifetaker, and Galeforce be good for postgame or would Vaike or Fred for a beefier Nah sans galeforce be better? Armsthrift is kinda pointless on Nah anyway - dstone+ is easy to buy and unforgeable.

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If you think that armsthrift doesn't have much value for dragonstone+, what makes you think it holds value to forged braves? The same conclusion is drawn if you make the assumption that gold is infinite. There is a sizable gap between the two, but you should acknowledge that gold is gold is gold. Armsthrift only holds value when you make it hold value (in a world where you don't have infinite gold, or you have some care about RTA efficient skills where forging is boring).

It's also worth noting that Nowi passes innate Mage/Sage and Wyvern Rider/Wyvern Lord as two fairly popular ending classes rather than keeping her in as a novelty manakete.

Sol and Lifetaker aren't my cup of tea, and I don't see much worth in them. I'm sure there might be more niche use outside of Apo though.

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I wasn't using Lucina with those Dark Knights because she doesn't form support ranks with them.

That said, I just came up with a different anti-Anna configuration (with the units I already have planned out):

Donnel!Kjelle (Defender, Defense +2, Speed +2, Galeforce, Luna) - Assassin

Henry!Gerome (Axefaire, Strength +2, Lancebreaker, [Axebreaker?], [other] - Berskerer

41, 29, 50, 48, 49, 32, 30 - Kjelle's Str/mag/skl/spd/lck/def/res

55, 32, 37, 44, 44, 38, 28 - Same for Berserker; values before limit/rally

After rallies/tonics (+10 to all but luck, which is +14)

51 Str, 39 Mag, 60 Skl, 58 Spd, 63 Lck, 42 Def, 40 Res - Assasin Kjelle

65 Str, 42 Mag, 47 Skl, 54 Spd, 58 Lck, 48 Def, 38 Res - Berserker Gerome

Gerome's pair-up bonus: +10 Str, +3 Mag, +3 Skl, +8 Spd, +3 Lck, +3 Def ,+2 Def

Kjelle after pair-up: 61 Str, 42 Mag, 63 Skl, 66 Spd, 66 Lck, 45 Def, 42 Res

Kjelle: Speed +2: 61 Str, 42 Mag, 63 Skl, 68 Spd, 66 Lck, 45 Def, 42 Res

Kjelle: Defender: 62 Str, 43 Mag, 64 Skl, 69 Spd, 67 Lck, 46 Def, 43 Res

Kjelle: Defense+2: 62 Str, 43 Mag, 64 Skl, 69 Spd, 67 Lck, 48 Def, 43 Res

Now fast enough to double the Berskerers and has enough defense to survive Anna.

Gerome: Strength+2, Axefaire: 72 Str, 42 Mag, 47 Skl, 54 Spd, 58 Lck, 48 Def, 38 Res - Berserker Gerome

Kjelle: Relevant stats only: 62 Str, 64 Skl, 69 Spd, 67 Lck, 48 Def

Brave bow: 10 attack. +5 from forge. +2 from weapon rank bonus. This gives 17 might from the weapon.

Kjelle: 79 Atk. Against Anna's 58 defense and Dragonski, this does (79-58)/2 = 10. 5 damage, which rounds down to 10 damage. Given that we're getting round down, it would be more efficient against Anna to use a +4 might, + 4 Hit forge setup instead to avoid wasting forges. So 78 Atk, but still does the same damage.

Hit rate: 64 Skl * 1.5 + 67 Lck * 0.5 +70 (Brave Bow) + 20 (4 hit forges) + 5 (weapon rank bonus) + 15 (S-rank bonus) = 239.5 Hit -> 239 Hit

Anna has 157 avoid. This drops to 132 avoid if Hex/Anathema bot is helping.

Kjelle has a 107% Hit rate --> 100% Hit rate. Actually, she doesn't even need the extra hit forge

Gerome: Berserker with +5 mod and a +3 axe, A-rank, WTA, rallies/tonics, and Axefaire gives 87 Atk. Shifting two hit forges to strength (for +5 Might/+15 hit instead) grants an extra two attack, to 89 Atk. Throwing on Strength +2 gives 91 Atk. (91-58)/2 = 16.5. Given round down, it looks like the better solution is +4 Might, +4 Hit forges (+4 Might, +20 Hit).

Brave Axe: 60 Hit, +20 in Hit forges, + 10 in weapon rank bonus, + 15 in weapon triangle advantage + 99 (from 47 Skl, 58 Lck) + 50 (Lancebreaker) = 254 Hit.

Given that Anathema is already assumed to be in effect from a Hex/Anathema bot, this elevates a 97% stated hit rate to 100%.

So both have 100% hit rates. Their dual strike rate is 87%. Kjelle has a 64% Luna proc.

Luna would drop Anna's defense to 55/2+3 = 30 Defense. 78-30 = 48. 48/2 is 24.

Kjelle can do 24 damage per Luna proc. Gerome can do 16 damage per hit of a dual strike (up to 4 hits).

24 x 2 + 16 x 4 = 112 damage.

Odds of happening: 0.64^2 * 0.87^2 = 0.3100 --> 31%

Odds of NOT killing Anna on the first combat: 69%

Use a Recover Staff and a Dance (Special damage will also boost the damage Kjelle does by+1 after Dragonskin, to 25 per Luna hit, 11 without Luna).

Anna will be wounded by now. But to simplify calculations, pretend that she's back to full health to create a lower limit on success rate.

.69^2 --> In this limit, there would be a 47.61% chance off not killing Anna from full health twice in a row. So logically, there is a 52.39% chance of having killed her (starting form full health) during either the first or second combats.

This forms the LOWER LIMIT, as I've totally ignored that Anna has likely taken a substantial amount of damage….. including a 79.21% chance that she took both dual strike pairs in the first combat, for 64 damage from that alone + 10 x2 from Kjelle, which would be 84 damage accumulated.

So the odds of a kill are actually substantially higher than that over the two combats.

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Nah is kind of tricky to optimize for - would going Donnel!Nah with Armsthrift, Sol, Lifetaker, and Galeforce be good for postgame or would Vaike or Fred for a beefier Nah sans galeforce be better? Armsthrift is kinda pointless on Nah anyway - dstone+ is easy to buy and unforgeable.

Sol doesn't really do much postgame. By far the best way to stay healthy is to pack a Staffbot dedicated to Fortify, and to pick your battles smartly.

I prefer to bench Donnel as a father because Gaius!Kjelle is top tier and I don't consider Galeforce on Nah or Noire to be worth what Donnel does to their mods (if either is to get it, Noire would be better).

If you think that armsthrift doesn't have much value for dragonstone+, what makes you think it holds value to forged braves?

A lot of people ask things like "how can I optimize my pairings for the most AT units", but since you can't get AT on everyone and there are quite a few different pairing combos that produce the maximum number of AT units, I've started advising prioritizing AT for units with more expensive weapons whenever it comes into question.

It's true that in the end you either have it on all your fielded units or will eventually have to get more gold, regardless of when or how much.

I wasn't using Lucina with those Dark Knights because she doesn't form support ranks with them.

Lucina with her own husband, not one of Avatar's girls. She'd never be able to hit 100% DS with an A support and no LB.

To make life easier on you, Gerome can run hexnathema instead of axebreaker and "other." No such thing as too much hexnathema.

Cord is already an Aura bot but it's probably a good idea to put one of them in Gerome's filler slot anyway (I'd run one aura alongside the Breaker, personally).

Edited by Czar_Yoshi
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As for Czar suggesting me looking into the Lucina pairings….

Lucina x Virion!Ingo [criterion is getting a convenient set of Hit skills, like the universal Hit+20, as well as the option for breakers, ] would be a possible solution.

Bow Knight x Berserker

33 Defense Lucina + 10 (rallies/tonics) + 3 (pair-up) + 2 (Defense+2, skill from her Knight class via Sumia) = 48 Defense…. can tank Anna if using a Bow (not if using a Sword)

46 Speed + 10 (rallies/tonics) + 8 (pair-up) + 2 (Speed +2, also from Sumia's classes) = 66… won't be doubled.

Lucina: Luna, Galeforce, Dual Strike+, Speed +2, Defense +2

Inigio: Axefaire, Strength +2, Hit +20, Proc or accuracy booster, Galeforce

Lucina's attack: 40 + 17 (Brave Bow, with 5 forges and weapon rank bonus) + 10 (rally/tonic) + 10 (pair-up) = 77

Still need to run the accuracy calculation. But she'd have a 97.25% Dual Strike rate.

Lucina deals 9 damage…. 23 with Luna.

I could get Inigo to the order of 86 attack… 14 damage per hit.

23 x 2 + 14 x 4 = 102.

Lucina will have 60 skill. 0.6^2 * 0.97^2 = 33.87% chance of finishing off Anna in one round of combat.

So that's somewhat better than the Noire solution I came up with. 2.87% additive success rate increase, although that's a 9.26% improvement as a percentage increase in the percentage success rate [(33.87%-31.00%)/(31.00%)]x100%= 9.26%.

The reason why Noire does so well despite lower dual strike rate is her higher proc rate on her Luna.

The reason why I haven't considered Vengeance in these situations is that I basically need to start near full health to ensure survival, and if Anna doesn't proc Aether or if its dual guarded or if it misses then I won't get my damage boost [or it will be really feeble]. Its just easier to think through the probabilities of Ignis/Luna and I only need to worry about one proc event working than 3 [does Aether trigger, is it not dual guarded, does it hit].

In terms of damage (strength mods, access to Strength +2, and the dual strike rate through Skill Mods), the unorthodox Frederick!Laurent would also be able to pull this off without infringing on any of the other pairings I already thought up [he'd want to use Lancebreaker for accuracy]. Frederick!Ingio would be able to do it with more damage, although it would hurt his speed for Galeforce tagging [although, to be fair, Laurent can't do that in the first place].

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Hey all!

Looking for some feedback for Owain's dad. It will be for Lunatic+ and DLC, and I'm thinking of using Owain with Lissa as the pair up (not sure on lead yet, see how Owain turns out). In general, I see Galeforce, Aggressor, and Limit breaker in his future, and not sure where to take it from there. Dad's like Stahl and Ricken give Luna, Dual Guard+, and Hit+20, where the Henry/Libra path give Vengence for the Vantage/vengeance combo. I feel the former is more versatile, where the later does the one thing, but does it well. I've not run VV before, but then I've not done Lunatic+/DLC so I'm not sure how useful the combo will be later on. The female avatar and my Noire (Gaius dad) should both be able to run VV if needed, so I'm not sure if a third pair to use it would be overkill or be super helpful for harder stages. Thoughts?

For what it's worth, I have Chrom with Olivia, Gaius with Tharja, and Sully with Donnel. FeMU is not an option, as I'm using her to unlock conversations later.

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Thanks for all the help, should be enough information to go on with for now atleast.

Speaking of challenges, is Apo easy to do or doable in general if you do a no reloading challenge with no deaths?

Yes, if you're packing forged Braves, Limit Breaker, Rallies, and Staffbots, then you should be able to complete it no problem barring some horrendous misplays (i.e. attacking Helswath Berserker while you're below ~70 HP, attacking Nightmare Sniper from 2-range, etc.).

There's tons of videos online of people completing it, even with pretty crappy skill setups / class selection / pairings.

Hey all!

Looking for some feedback for Owain's dad. It will be for Lunatic+ and DLC, and I'm thinking of using Owain with Lissa as the pair up (not sure on lead yet, see how Owain turns out). In general, I see Galeforce, Aggressor, and Limit breaker in his future, and not sure where to take it from there. Dad's like Stahl and Ricken give Luna, Dual Guard+, and Hit+20, where the Henry/Libra path give Vengence for the Vantage/vengeance combo. I feel the former is more versatile, where the later does the one thing, but does it well. I've not run VV before, but then I've not done Lunatic+/DLC so I'm not sure how useful the combo will be later on. The female avatar and my Noire (Gaius dad) should both be able to run VV if needed, so I'm not sure if a third pair to use it would be overkill or be super helpful for harder stages. Thoughts?

For Apotheosis, VV without Dual Strike+ is inconsistent.

Magic classes don't have the highest Skill, so you'll be hovering around 93-95% DS chance, depending on your mods and whatnot.

If you're going to low HP for maximum Vengeance damage output, missing one DS could spell death, which there is a significant chance of.

So generally for consistency purposes, it's not advised unless you're paired with Chrom / Lucina since you have a pretty real chance of just dying.

Vengeance by itself is perfectly fine as an offensive proc, but staying in range for Enemy Phase is risky.

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