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Thanks for all the help, should be enough information to go on with for now atleast.

Speaking of challenges, is Apo easy to do or doable in general if you do a no reloading challenge with no deaths?

Without any challenge runs, that is to say, not banning either DLC, Rally Bots, pairup or brave weapons?

Do you mean you get one shot and if you let a single person die you lose for that entire file? That seems pretty extreme, but even so...

YES. It should be pretty damned easy if you're careful and know about potential dangers ahead of time, especially with brave weapons. I've attempted apotheosis thrice, once with brave weapons and twice without, and I succeeded without any casualties on all of these attempts. Using everything, but especially using brave weapons, turns the entire thing into a cakewalk (it's entirely possible to one-round enemies in apotheosis without brave weapons, and brave weapons TRIPLE YOUR DAMAGE OUTPUT).

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Without any challenge runs, that is to say, not banning either DLC, Rally Bots, pairup or brave weapons?

Do you mean you get one shot and if you let a single person die you lose for that entire file? That seems pretty extreme, but even so...

YES. It should be pretty damned easy if you're careful and know about potential dangers ahead of time, especially with brave weapons. I've attempted apotheosis thrice, once with brave weapons and twice without, and I succeeded without any casualties on all of these attempts. Using everything, but especially using brave weapons, turns the entire thing into a cakewalk (it's entirely possible to one-round enemies in apotheosis without brave weapons, and brave weapons TRIPLE YOUR DAMAGE OUTPUT).

Yeah, meant that one shot for every map and if anyone dies, game over. Currently running a Lunatic/Classic ingame run with this rule and it's been fun so far. Was thinking of changing it so that once i reach a point in the ingame where avatar can roll everything no problem, i would start grinding my team so that i can clear all the DLC with this rule aswell. And after seeing your post, started wondering if i should add even more challenge when i do Apo.

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Yeah, meant that one shot for every map and if anyone dies, game over. Currently running a Lunatic/Classic ingame run with this rule and it's been fun so far. Was thinking of changing it so that once i reach a point in the ingame where avatar can roll everything no problem, i would start grinding my team so that i can clear all the DLC with this rule aswell. And after seeing your post, started wondering if i should add even more challenge when i do Apo.

Oh shoot, I told you that stuff twice, sorry, I totally didn't see that was you XD

And lemme revise that: if you're not just talking about apotheosis, but about every map... no. I don't think it'd be very realistic, mostly because you'd need to do some of the DLC maps more than once to even remotely have a shot at apo, because it takes a lot of money and experience to build up the team you need.

EDIT: Oh, you're making an exception for grinding? Then maybe.

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For Apotheosis, VV without Dual Strike+ is inconsistent.

Magic classes don't have the highest Skill, so you'll be hovering around 93-95% DS chance, depending on your mods and whatnot.

If you're going to low HP for maximum Vengeance damage output, missing one DS could spell death, which there is a significant chance of.

So generally for consistency purposes, it's not advised unless you're paired with Chrom / Lucina since you have a pretty real chance of just dying.

Vengeance by itself is perfectly fine as an offensive proc, but staying in range for Enemy Phase is risky.

Hm, so a VV build would not work right without Lucina/Chrom and Dual Strike+, so unless I'm mistaken only the FeMU could run VV with Chrom. Since he's already married and I'm not restarting, Lucina/Husband is the only chance I have for it. Owain is the only second gen guy I was planning on using who can S rank Lucina, so if I want a VV to even be an option, Owain needs a dad with vengeance. Alright, that narrows it down to Henry/Libra. I'll have to think on that, but at least I know more of this works. Thanks for the heads up!

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So, I beat the game for the first time a week ago, so now I'm trying a new run on hard with the goal of trying some new pairings. Currently, the ones I've decided on are Robin/Chrom, Sully/Vaike, Sumia/Gaius, Panne/Gregor, Cordelia/Stahl, Nowi/Donnel, and Cherche/Frederick.

Those are set in stone.

What isn't is the rest. The other ladies are unpaired, with the eligible bachelors being Virion, Ricken, Lon'qu, Libra, and Henry (Kellam is on his own).

Now, I'm not concerned with galeforce, so who should I pair with whom for fun builds?

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So, I beat the game for the first time a week ago, so now I'm trying a new run on hard with the goal of trying some new pairings. Currently, the ones I've decided on are Robin/Chrom, Sully/Vaike, Sumia/Gaius, Panne/Gregor, Cordelia/Stahl, Nowi/Donnel, and Cherche/Frederick.

Those are set in stone.

What isn't is the rest. The other ladies are unpaired, with the eligible bachelors being Virion, Ricken, Lon'qu, Libra, and Henry (Kellam is on his own).

Now, I'm not concerned with galeforce, so who should I pair with whom for fun builds?

"Fun builds" is subjective, but based on who's been taken already:

Lissa - Ricken is popular with her. Lon'qu & Henry can also work here if you prefer Vengeance.

Olivia - Libra, Ricken, and Henry all work here (though Henry has quite a bit of class overlap). All Inigo really wants is a proc.

Miriel - Virion works best here for Archer access, but any of the magical fathers work (at the cost of class overlap, particularly with Libra). Lon'qu is an option if you want to go Vantage-Vengeance

Maribelle - Lon'qu is the obvious choice here, but Virion or any of the 3 magical fathers (Ricken, Libra, Henry) work here as well.

Tharja - Both Galeforce options are gone, as are her best non-Galeforce physical options (Vaike, Gregor). All she'll really want is a magical male (Ricken, Libra, Henry) for Tomefaire access as a Sage pseudo-support.

I V/V with Ursula and 0% dual strikes. It isn't inconsistent if you know what you're doing.

Really? I know you do challenge runs, is this without LB & Rallies and whatnot?

Just curious, since I assumed that VVDS+ was pretty much the only way to consistently nab consistent kills on the tougher enemies (i.e. Aegis+).

And I'm assuming you had to run a lot of calcs to see what you could and could not kill, which I'm wayyyy too lazy to do :P

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The only DLC I have is Apo, so I can only do challenge runs. I never used the opportunity to get other DLC. When FE:If comes out, I might consider getting a new 3ds + capture to make an in depth tutorial for Apo regarding how I think through the map with team building based off my setup (vengeance fueled), Yoshi's (dual strike based), and huff puff's (proc stacked based). I think that would be a lot of fun for me, but my only issue with this is that it would be so late that nobody would care for it.

Without rallies, I use Morgan and Severa instead of Ursula and Micaiah. I just substituted rallies for mods + other bonuses (such as having a real spouse instead of Nino supporting Ursula, having Olivia alive, etc). The numbers are very simple, it's just that prepping 1 HP vengeance requires toying with different mag/def/spd values.

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Yeah, meant that one shot for every map and if anyone dies, game over. Currently running a Lunatic/Classic ingame run with this rule and it's been fun so far. Was thinking of changing it so that once i reach a point in the ingame where avatar can roll everything no problem, i would start grinding my team so that i can clear all the DLC with this rule aswell. And after seeing your post, started wondering if i should add even more challenge when i do Apo.

Iron Mans are interesting and totally doable (including with death on anyone = full restart instead of merely losing them), but if you've never done Apo before there are still one or two things that could sneak up on you, especially if lowmanning. I'd advise doing it once first just to get a feel for that, and then it would definitely work.

Hm, so a VV build would not work right without Lucina/Chrom and Dual Strike+, so unless I'm mistaken only the FeMU could run VV with Chrom. Since he's already married and I'm not restarting, Lucina/Husband is the only chance I have for it. Owain is the only second gen guy I was planning on using who can S rank Lucina, so if I want a VV to even be an option, Owain needs a dad with vengeance. Alright, that narrows it down to Henry/Libra. I'll have to think on that, but at least I know more of this works. Thanks for the heads up!

Well... Only if you really want a VV unit. They're not required and actually tend to be fairly poor team players outside of a few fairly specific challenge run brackets, since typically your stats are either high enough that you don't need to do an EP sweep to get rid of units (Apo has very few enemies per wave, and they're very spread out, so you can't just soak up kills like RaR3 or something), or you can't meet the thresholds for making it work.

Typically I advise not using them unless you know what you want them for and that they'll work. They're not plug-and-play.

So, I beat the game for the first time a week ago, so now I'm trying a new run on hard with the goal of trying some new pairings. Currently, the ones I've decided on are Robin/Chrom, Sully/Vaike, Sumia/Gaius, Panne/Gregor, Cordelia/Stahl, Nowi/Donnel, and Cherche/Frederick.

Those are set in stone.

What isn't is the rest. The other ladies are unpaired, with the eligible bachelors being Virion, Ricken, Lon'qu, Libra, and Henry (Kellam is on his own).

Now, I'm not concerned with galeforce, so who should I pair with whom for fun builds?

Just a warning, Fred!Gerome is... Kinda useless. If fun builds is your goal, he's not your friend.

What people find to be fun is pretty subjective, but I prioritize high movement for casual play. The more places on the map you can go, the more options you have, and options are fun. Galeforce is in the same boat since it effectively doubles your movement range, and Armsthrift is similar too because it lets you spam flashy legendary weapons that are a pain to replace.

Anyway, I see Lissa, Miriel, Maribelle, Tharja and Olivia still free. Of those, I'd advise using Ricken x Lissa, Lon'qu x Miriel, Henry x Maribelle, Libra x Tharja, and Virion x Olivia, though Virion and Libra can be switched easily if you like.

Hey Czar, you know what I'd love to see? A video of you tackling apotheosis, preferably in a challenge run, using one of your teams. I'd be curious to know how you go about it.

I'd love to stream Awakening too, but unfortunately my capture card is broken and I'm too lazy to get it fixed. Loopy's even offered to do it for free (and do it while they're still out of stock for everyone else), but I haven't gotten around to sending it in.

Even if/when I do get it fixed, I've already got a DK64 101% run in the queue for streaming so I wouldn't start until that's done and over with. And that could be stuck there for quite a while because my home internet is bad and I might not be able to do anything with it over the summer.

Really? I know you do challenge runs, is this without LB & Rallies and whatnot?

Just curious, since I assumed that VVDS+ was pretty much the only way to consistently nab consistent kills on the tougher enemies (i.e. Aegis+).

There's very little you can outright 2HKO, especially without LB. The draw of unpaired V(V) is that there's no DGs that can mess it up, so you can use it for things like taking a hit on EP to set up, then striking back to soften up something else for the kill next PP. It's a lot harder to work with than regular VV because you can't just leave your HP at 1 for the whole map so easily and have to be able to set it up on the fly, but it's also extremely versatile and has a fairly low opportunity cost to your team since it only takes one unit slot to use, and can double as a Staffbot when not VVing.

I haven't used them much with everything on the table since kills never require setups and enemies never survive, but the moment reasonably high kill rates are off the table, it becomes a thing. Also unlike VVDSt+ units, they're great team players too. The only barrier really is that they take the most in-map work out of pretty much anything you could field in Apo to use.

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For Gerome? He wants Virion or Stahl for maximum ingame versatility. Your Stahl is currently busy, but Inigo likes Fred too so you could swap Virion and Fred easily.

You could also swap Fred onto Owain and give Gerome Ricken. The mods will be pretty strange but the ending classes work out nicely.

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Henry's also a good option for Gerome's father. Not only does white hair REALLY suit him, Henry's anathema allows him to be a good (but not the best, because he can't get it and hit+20) berserker. This is an especially useful option if you need a berserker and Yarne is taken for Morgan breeding purposes.

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So I’m going to start a run with randomised pairings soon, and I plan to tackle both braves- and non-braves-Apo with it.

I’m actually surprised by the number of pairings that turned out well, but as there are still some weird ones included, I thought I’d ask for some advice on class/skill-selection (mainly important for the no-braves-playthrough). And while I think that I do have a good idea about how things work already, some fine-tuning or help for the rather bad pairs would be appreciated.

Anyways, onto the concrete pairings and my thoughts on them:

Sumia!Lucina x MU!Owain

Well, I sadly got no MU x Child-pairing, but it’s beautiful incest at least.

Avatar’s asset isn’t fully decided on yet, but I think +Mag/Spd with Def-flaw sounds nice. Obviously, Mag would be better for raw damage, but Spd might be important for doubling stuff – depending on classes chosen though. For Owain, Sage seems to be pretty standard here, while Lucy would probably like to run Sniper (for 3 range) or Dark Flier (magic attacks and useful Spd-bonus for Owain that might allow him to go for the extra Mag from the respective MU).

Skillsets are probably (LB/GF/Agg/Tomefaire/Ignus) and (LB/GF/Faire/2 out of Luna, DS+ and Aether).

Lissa!Morgan x Stahl!Inigo

Not bad either, I guess, as Inigo gets his Luna.

Inigo will go physical and has a lot of options with Sniper/Hero/Zerker/Assassin and some more, but I’m not sure what compliments Morgan best here. The Str-boni of some of the classes seem kinda wasted when she goes magical, which she probably should (Sage/Dark Flier/Valk, I dunno).

Skills are pretty straightforward though, standard Luna + Faire for Inigo, while Morgan should pack (LB/GF/Tomefaire/Ignus/Filler). Prockstacking with another Luna might work nicely here.

Chrom!Cynthia x Lon’qu!Brady

And pretty much ideal fathers for both of them. :)

There isn’t really much to decide here, Brady will most likely go standard Sage with Cynthia as Dark Flier (Sniper would be an option as well, but there are others who are probably more suited for that).

Ricken!Severa x Henry!Laurent

The rather seldom seen magical Severa makes her appearance here.

She could just go Dark Flier for another obvious pair with him as Sage, but Sniper exists as possibility as well – it seems I really have a lot of potential Snipers in this run. Laurent also has the option to use Berserker, but I’m not too fond of that class on him even when he has neutral strength. Could help Severa with her Speed though.

Regardless, skillsets will probably be (LB/GF/Faire/Luna/maybe AS+2 as filler cause she’s quite slow for being Severa) and (LB/Agg/Tomefaire/Anathema/AS+2 or Dual Sup+).

Gaius!Noire x Frederick!Gerome

I’m actually really happy that I got Noire with GF, but that Gerome is… taken directly from the recommended pairings two years ago. And sucky on top of that.

Well, standard Sniper stuff for Noire here (LB/GF/Luna/Bowfaire/either AS+2 for stats or Anathema to help Gerome hit), but I’m really not sure what to do with him because he has neither Zerker nor any good utility from Dark Mage/Archer. Nice strength mod, but no good Faire to go along with this whatsoever. I guess he could just do something like (LB/Agg/As+2/Str+2/Dual Sup+) as Warrior/Hero?

Donny!Nah x Virion!Yarne

Yarne is good, but Nah… Well, she has GF at least?

Anyways, he can do his regular Berserker stuff (LB/Agg/Axefaire/Hit+20/AS+2), but Nah… Due to her total lack of physical Faires, maybe Sage/Dark Flier/Valk with (LB/GF/Tomefaire/AS+2/Mag+2 or Spd+2 or Dual Sup+)? And she’s slow on top of that no matter what she does. Ugh.

And, last of all, Libra!Kjelle, forever alone.

Well yeah. No GF and no husband is pretty terrible. And she doesn’t even make an exceptional staffbot or anything (no Falcon Knight or Valkyrie). Should I even use her?

By the way, as non-GF-Noire has been discussed quite a bunch of times already but I’ve never seen really much about Kjelle without GF, are there good builds for her under these circumstances at all? She could go VV, I guess, but no partner makes this pretty impossible for her in this case as well…

... And finally we reached an end. All in all I think that I actually got pretty lucky considering the pairs have all been randomised, so things should work out quite nicely regardless of that.

To conclude it: Tons of internet cookies for anyone who even bothered to read this all and answered. You’re awesome, guys. :)

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Asset: +Spd on Morgan with All+2 will give you that 75 Spd Valkyrie with a +0 support, and you can also have a 75 Wyvern or non-All+2 75. On Owain's side, he gets to 75 as a Grandmaster with a DF support and no All+2, while getting Lucina there as well. +Mag, on the other hand, removes Morgan's +0 magical options, but Hero/BK Owain can still get her Sage/DF to 75 with no All+2. Owain takes it much better, still having enough Spd to hit 75 as a Sage with a DF support and no All+2.

Flaw: -Def is the obvious choice, but it is worth nothing that +Spd/-Str will give Owain and Morgan a +5 Lck mod, which means 100% AT with no LB, if you care about that during early postgame. -Str however will give them -4 Str mods, which are completely unpalatable as Paladins and the like, locking them to magical classes and lowering Owain's potential as a Grandmaster.

Lucina: will see much more average damage from dropping TF and using both Luna and Aether, even considering that they don't work in the back.

Cynthia: it's hard to find someone more suited to Sniping than someone with an Aether/Luna procstack and a Sage husband...

Laurent: will want his Berserker if Severa brings out an All+2 Paladin or Sniper (Paladin is worth considering because you don't have a lot of good 8-Mov candidates here). In the event DF x Sage is ran, All+2 won't change Severa's Spd bracket (she'll have 70 without it).

Gerome: since you're stuck with a bad pair, you might as well make the most of it and play it how it used to be played- Sol, PavGis, DG+, LB, and have Noire take a kill with GF, then switch to Gerome to tank EP.

Seriously though, make him a General and give him as much Atk-boosting stuff as possible.

Nah: her Spd is regrettable, but she still hits 69 cleanly as a BK with no All+2 and a Berserker support- I'd say that's her best bet at physical.

Kjelle: nope, don't use her. You need space for staffbots in case Noire or Nah derp and since you're short on Mov, anyway.

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Well... Only if you really want a VV unit. They're not required and actually tend to be fairly poor team players outside of a few fairly specific challenge run brackets, since typically your stats are either high enough that you don't need to do an EP sweep to get rid of units (Apo has very few enemies per wave, and they're very spread out, so you can't just soak up kills like RaR3 or something), or you can't meet the thresholds for making it work.

Typically I advise not using them unless you know what you want them for and that they'll work. They're not plug-and-play.

Huh. Again, never run it myself, but the way you see the build mentioned so often, I figured it would be a big help on some later stages I hadn't seen. I mean, why else would the build be known, right? Good to know it's not a must or anything.

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Huh. Again, never run it myself, but the way you see the build mentioned so often, I figured it would be a big help on some later stages I hadn't seen. I mean, why else would the build be known, right? Good to know it's not a must or anything.

No, it's definitely not a must if you're going in with Limit Breaker & Rallies (and potentially Braves).

VVDS+ is mostly prominent in challenge runs (i.e. no Limit Breaker, no DLC, etc.) where there's simply no other way to achieve the damage output to kill the tougher enemies in a reasonable amount of time (since there is a time limit in Apotheosis Secret Path Wave 5).

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Surely there are other ways.

There are only 14 enemies in the 5th wave (5 Snipers, including Nightmare Sniper #2), 6 Sorcerers (including 2 Invincisorcs), 2 super-Berserkers, and Anna.

EVEN IF you needed 3 rounds of combat against each of those 14 [which you won't, particularly against some of the weaker ones], a team of 6 combat units launching 1 round of attack each per round (i.e., ignoring Galeforce) would still give you 42 attacks during that time. 14 x 3 = 7 x 6

Now, granted, you might not have 6 combat pairs (maybe 5 is more reasonable) and you may need to use movement or rescues to get into position, but the enemies aren't going to need 3 rounds of attacks each either AND we've totally ignored extra turns from Galeforce.

Moreover, as some of the calculations I've done earlier in this thread show, its entirely possible for a no DLC team to wipe out even powerful opponents like Anna (or even the Berserkers) in 1 round of combat. More realistically, you'd probably need two pairs to contribute a round of combat, but they can do that on the same turn… which means that the second pair would get to trigger their Galeforce and then add in an extra attack (after getting healed by a staff user if needed).

Sure, turns would be tight, but unless I'm significantly overlooking something it should be totally reasonable to beat it without V/V DS even without DLC.

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Huh. Again, never run it myself, but the way you see the build mentioned so often, I figured it would be a big help on some later stages I hadn't seen. I mean, why else would the build be known, right? Good to know it's not a must or anything.

It's as well-known as it is because a long time ago some now-famous players used it to own the scrubs on Gfaqs who were pushing the old meta and blew everyone's minds.

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Surely there are other ways.

There are only 14 enemies in the 5th wave (5 Snipers, including Nightmare Sniper #2), 6 Sorcerers (including 2 Invincisorcs), 2 super-Berserkers, and Anna.

EVEN IF you needed 3 rounds of combat against each of those 14 [which you won't, particularly against some of the weaker ones], a team of 6 combat units launching 1 round of attack each per round (i.e., ignoring Galeforce) would still give you 42 attacks during that time. 14 x 3 = 7 x 6

Now, granted, you might not have 6 combat pairs (maybe 5 is more reasonable) and you may need to use movement or rescues to get into position, but the enemies aren't going to need 3 rounds of attacks each either AND we've totally ignored extra turns from Galeforce.

Moreover, as some of the calculations I've done earlier in this thread show, its entirely possible for a no DLC team to wipe out even powerful opponents like Anna (or even the Berserkers) in 1 round of combat. More realistically, you'd probably need two pairs to contribute a round of combat, but they can do that on the same turn… which means that the second pair would get to trigger their Galeforce and then add in an extra attack (after getting healed by a staff user if needed).

Sure, turns would be tight, but unless I'm significantly overlooking something it should be totally reasonable to beat it without V/V DS even without DLC.

I haven't bothered doing calcs for non-DLC stuff, so you could very well be right.

I'm just basing this off my knowledge that most of the non-DLC challenge runs I've seen have involved VVDS+ in some way.

Out of curiosity, how do you survive Anna Aether & Helswath Berserker? Dodgetanking is possible (?) against Anna I presume, but Hawkeye enemies will be a pain. They do hefty damage even with Limit Breaker involved, but I haven't run the calcs so I don't know how close you get to dying.

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Use 60 Spd so you don't get doubled by Thronie, and fight at range. He's only got 99 Atk so you'd need less than 30 Def to die, which isn't happening even without Rally. Surviving him is no biggie, it's killing him that's the problem.

Anna goes down either to dodgetanks (mostly used to get her off her Throne) or Vengeance Longbows. She has only 55 Def and no shields so she goes down pretty quickly even with no DLC/Rally.

If you're using Rally but no DLC, then it's pretty simple to hit Anna's survival thresholds as well (for no doubling and one Aether). It's also possible to get doubled and survive two Aethers with 76 Def, something Manakete Kellam!Nah!Morgan is able to reach in a no DLC/Rally setting with a General support and Def tonic (Def+2 and Defender are still on the table so plain Nowi!Morgan could do it too with both of those, and Donnel!Nah!Morgan can do it with just Def+2). However Manaketes aren't so good at striking back, so I don't recommend including one (and using up Avatar making it) unless you have additional uses for a Deftank.

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