Jump to content

Recommended Posts

For just the rta low man (FeMU x Chrom + 7 others), there is one turn to spare. This was vvds+.

For both zero condition and no dlc/no rally, it took every turn. These two were yes vv/no ds+.

I thought I crunched those turns to the best of my ability. The number one thing I overlooked was the amount of resources it took for movement. Even though sniper pack was just one end phase to kill with v/v, the zerkers needed to be poked the exact same turn all while keeping my rescue count intact and in safety. I needed to v/v a low hp sorc and v/v Anna in the same end phase of a certain turn.

If you dropped v/v, you not only take a hit to your damage (consistent or not, it would've outdamage anything else, so you probably won't ko the snipers in one turn), you also take a hit on unit count. Increasing the combat units decreases the rescue bot count which effectively limits movement when you need to travel to all 4 sides of the map.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 7.9k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

As noted, surviving the Helswath Berserkers is pretty easy - 60 speed, 30 defense

Surviving Anna in a non dodge tank build [assuming you aren't doing the high defense strategy Czar noted] needs 66 speed and 48 defense, assuming triangle neutrality.

Stat booster skills, like Speed +2, Defense +2, Defender, etc., that get generally ignored otherwise end up quite useful for threshold breaking in theory-crafting for a no Dlc but rally allowed player phase focused run. (I haven't completed the map under these conditions yet… I still need to build my characters, but I've done calculations).

Example:

Assassin Donnel Kjelle - Speed +2, Defender, Defense +2, Galeforce, Luna

32 defense (31 +1 mod) +2 (Def +2) +1 (Defender) + 3 (Berserker pair-up) + 4 (Rally Spectrum) + 4 (Rally Defense) + 2 (Defense tonic) = 48 defense

48 speed (46 + 2 mod) + +2 (Spd +2) +1 (Defender) + 8 (Berserker pair-up) + 4 (Rally Spectrum) + 4 (Rally Defense) + 2 (Speed tonic) = 69 speed

Will certainly survive Aether. Can double Helswath Berserker as well and can attack at range.

Consider one of the +5 Str beserkers (Stahl!Yarne, Henry!Gerome, etc.), both of whom have major hit skills that aren't hex/anathema (to be provided by another unit), i.e., Hit+20 or Lancebreaker/Axebreaker.

From 55 str as a berserker after that mod, 5 from axefaire, 12 from Brave Axe, 4 from 4 might forges, 1 from weapon rank, and 10 from rallies/tonics, we've already gotten up to 87 attack. Throne Berserker has 67 defense. That's (87-67)/2 = 10 damage per hit.

If it's Gerome, we can also add in Strength +2. This makes us get 11 damage per hit instead.

Kjelle is doubling the Berserker, so her Brave bow can get 4 hits, which can trigger up to 4 pairs of dual strike hits (up to 8 hits).

So Gerome himself can contribute dual strikes (at 87% proc chance) for potentially up to 88 damage to the Helswath Berserker in dual strikes alone. It has 99 HP, so that reduces it to 11 HP.

This has totally ignored Kjelle.

My calculations with Kjelle with a Brave Bow (10 Might + 5 forges +2 weapon rank = 17 added attack), 41 strength after mods, 10 from rallies/tonics, 1 from defender, and 10 from Berserker Gerome, yields 79 attack. ((79-67)/2)/2 = 3 damage per hit. 4 hits gives 12 damage.

3 x 4 + 8 x 11 = 12 + 88 = 100 Damage. Berserker dies. Moreover, at 87% dual strike, Gerome is more likely than not going to get all four dual strikes the first time: he has a ~57% chance of doing so (.87^4 x 100%).

And I've also ignored that Kjelle has Luna.

The throne defense doesn't get halved, but the rest of it should be [unless Helswath's defense also isn't halved and I haven't realized it]. Half of 64 is 32. +3 from throne defense gives 35.

((79 - 35)/2)/2 = 11 damage.

Maximum possible damage: 11 x 4 + 11 x 8 = 132

Kjelle will have a 64% Luna rate.

(3 + 11 + 11 + 11) + (11 x 6 + 0 x 2) = 102.

So even if one of the dual strike pairs from Gerome is is missed [and he's more likely to get them all to begin with], Kjelle can still get the kill anyways if she triggered three Lunas.

So even the Helswath Berserker on the throne can be killed in 1 round of combat without DLC and without Vantage/Vengeance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You have to understand that I was working with 100% conditions instead of 64% and 87% conditions. I don't doubt the realm of possibility for a second, and I still think the feat should be applauded for when you actually complete your run.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What do you think are the ideal number of staff bots I should use for my run?

I'm planning to run a full 20 unit deployment and another of my self-imposed rules is using only the 49 characters who can form supports among those 20.

I NEED 2 rally bots for my calculations to work, and since I have plans for Morgan/Severa as combat units that requires the Male Avatar/Robin to be one of the ralliers. I was thinking Maribelle would make a good candidate for the 2nd rallier.

And of course, it makes sense to include Olivia, as she is the Dancer and can give any attacker or staff user an extra action.

A 10 combat unit setup (5 pairs) would thus imply 7 dedicated staff bots outside of the Ralliers + Olivia, although that assumes that Chrom is in one of the combat pairs. (Although seeing that with Sumia the two of them can double the Invincisorc and have a better dual strike rate for overcoming his Miracle, this might not be a bad thing).

I have (in a prior run on a different file) gone up to Wave 3 with a 10 combat unit, 7 staff, 2 rallier, 1 Dancer configuration. There was at some times some mobility issues in keeping everyone close enough to the rallier, but I could probably manage it better with more practice.

A 12 combat unit setup (6 pairs) could allow for more enemy kills per turn, but reduces Rescue mobility (5 staff users + 2 ralliers + Olivia), I'd imagine. But you're probably more experienced in these matters as all your runs are no-DLC.

In any event, as I've started a fresh file to do this, I won't be there for a long time… I'm only on Ch. 13 right now in the new file, so this is just theory crafting right now to properly plan ahead.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maribelle and Lissa should be able to get the female rallies. Since you are already have some calcs on the zerkers, you should identify who you want to go where regarding a 5 pair clear vs a 6 pair clear. Have a general look on which pairs are taking care of the left soldiers vs right soldiers in wave 4, who is taking care of the fliers/sages, etc.

That would determine if you needed an extra pair or not. Or you can just wing it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm lining up the sisters Morgan and Severa with husbands to be determined to have sufficient resistance to survive a combat the Celica's Gale Sages on the right. Although I'd need to use a Recover or a bunch of Fortifies to heal them up afterwards. Unless I get a lucky Dual Guard or if I finish them off beforehand (still need to work a calc to determine how realistic this is). Although I suppose that I could save some effort by having their pair-up partners take the lead and then kill a second Sage before healing the lot of them with Fortifies.

Dark Knight/Dark Knight pair-ups with 61 speed [won't double the Forseti sage, but will double the others] and 56 resistance.

The Celica Sages have 70 attack, right? After Luna+, they'll do 42 damage per hit to my leading Dark Knight sisters (Morgan/Severa), which will give a surival at 1/85 HP.

Healing is Mag/2 + 8 +3 from A-rank bonus + 5 from Healtouch if applicable, right?

So then a Tomefaire 0 mod sage would have 51 magic (25 healing) + 8 (from staff) + 5 from heal touch + 3 from rank bonus… that's 41 healing…

If they had a +1 mod or Magic +2 instead of a 0 mod, then I'd get up to 42 healing, with the mod being preferable here as it lets them run other skills in the slot.

So after all the units have taken their attacks, I could repair that damage from range with 2 Healtouch Fortify Stave Sages who meet this requirement, right? And they'd heal from 26 range.

Luckily, Lissa already meets this requirement (+2 magic mod) and it wouldn't be hard to produces others who do as well. Like Libra.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If the Sages are an issue, you could pair one with Laurent, have him use my 100% crit VV strat to wipe the floor with them, and then SS him back to Berserker for Wave 5. His Hit might be an issue since he won't have room for Lancebreaker on the crit build, though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You forgot valflame. Valflame + tomefaire means a magic boost of 10.

While this is true, there is only one Valflame that will be considered for the purposes of this run (using two would mean that I used a resource that is only obtainable via DLC).

I don't object to training for the run with Paragon [removing it before starting the map], as anyone can get enough experience given sufficient time/grinding, so this speeds up the process.

But no amount of in game grinding can produce a second Valflame.

So while I'd consider using one Valflame, the others wouldn't have it available.

Oh, CzarYoshi, is this the crit build you were suggesting (copied-and-pasted from your post)?

QUOTE BEGINS

Gregor!Laurent (Wrath/Gamble/Focus/Vantage/Vengeance) x Avatar (Solidarity/Anathema/DS+/filler).

Laurent's Skl: 38(Sorc) +4(mods) +10(Rally) +7(Sage pairup) +2(tonic) =61. Base crit: 30.

Crit: 30(base) +20(Wrath) +10(Focus) +10(Gamble) +10(Solidarity) +10(Anathema) +15(DS+) +50(Ruin) =155, exactly enough for 100% crit rate on all the mooks. Damage is obviously going to be a concern however, because I dropped LB.

44(Sorc) +3(mods) +10(Rally) +9(Sage pairup) +9(Ruin) +2(tonic) +42(Vengeance) =119.

To kill a non-Aegis+ 80 HP foe with a crit, I need to do 27*3 damage, or 54 before Dragonskin. The highest Res of any non-Aegis+ foe with 55 Lck is on Wave 4's Sage boss, 55. 119 -55 =64, so I'm actually 15 damage over target. Laurent can take a fairly suboptimal Vengeance boost and still sweep.

Hitrate is also a concern here, mainly due to the lack of LB but also because Sorcs aren't the most accurate units around. Fortunately I can afford a +25 Hit forge on Ruin.

Laurent's Lck: 45(base) +0(mods) +14(Rally) +3(Sage pairup) +2(tonic) =64. 61*3 +64 /2 =123 base Hit.

123(base) +20(DS+) +85(Ruin) -5(Gamble) +10(Anathema) =233 Hit. The highest Avo of any 55 Lck non-Aegis+ foe is 120 (that Sage again) so no worries there.

So far, this isn't really that different from normal VV except that it doesn't work on Anna or anything with Aegis+, which are pretty major drawbacks. It does, however, have a few perks that make it noteworthy.

END QUOTE

To be honest, I was considering Gregor or Lon'qu!Laurent anyways, so this could actually work. Moreover, I was even considering marrying Laurent off to female Morgan anyways. So she could provide the Solidarity and Anathema that he needs.

Of course, I'd need to retool the skill build from what I was originally planning to use her with, but there is some merit to this idea.

Fortunately, in terms of skills there are no inheritance requirements, so I don't have to commit to it.

ADDENDUM:

On that note, even if I don't use the crit build, second-sealing to a Berserker for the Wave 5 could have some merit…. Laurent has the class, after all, and it does give Morgan (with her current build) a sufficient speed to survive Anna.

Edited by astrophys
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey, calculations just got me wondering about this... a while ago, like before I knew about hacks (not sure if it was before hacks became a thing), I saw a picture on miiverse that showed owain on exponential growth attacking an entombed, and Owain's battle stats for the fight listed 100 damage, 100% accuracy, and 100% critical. This is completely and totally impossible to have all at once, right? I'm not crazy?

Edited by Alastor15243
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Speaking of calculations, I was thinking about the idea that Laurent could class change mid battle (if needed) to let Morgan hit different thresholds for the end.

And I came to the conclusion that Frederick would help Laurent hit a threshold.

Basically, fathers who give him a Wyvern (for Lancebreaker and Strength+2) and a positive strength mod would be key to getting him to hit a threshold.

Morgan - Dark Knight from my earlier calculations:

45 Mag, +3 Magic from Berserker Laurent, +5 tome faire, +2 Weapon rank, + 8 or 9 from Celica's, +1 Defender, +10 rally/tonic = 74 or 75 magic

40 strength + 10 from laurent + 1 from Defender + 10 from rally/tonic = 61 strength --> Ignis adds 30 attack.

74+30 = 104.

104-58 = 46.

46/2 = 23 damage per Ignis activation. (due to Dragonskin, the extra point from 75 magic wouldn't matter)

So that could be 46 damage from two Ingis attacks. We need to do 53 damage more over 4 dual strikes to one-round Anna potentially.

This will need us to do 13.25 (and thus 14) damage per attack.

14*2 + 58 = 86 strength target.

NEED: 86

- 50 from Berserker base

NEED: 36

- 10 from rallies/tonics

NEED: 26

-12 from Brave axe (before forge)

NEED: 14

-1 from A rank

NEED: 13

-1 from Weapon triangle advantage vs. Anna

NEED: 12

-5 from Axefaire

NEED: 7

- 2 from Strength + 2

NEED: 5

- 5 from max weapon Forge

NEED:

0

BUT Modifiers haven't been accounted for yet:

Frederick!Laurent: +1; Virion or Lon'qu!Laurent: -1

Frederick NEEDS: -1

Virion or Lon'qu!Laurent NEEDS: 1

So Virion and Lon'qu would fall 1 point of strength short and end up 1 HP of damage short for killing Anna assuming the ideal possible outcome (which is not necessarily likely) of Ignis, Dual Strikes, Ignis, Dual strikes.

Laurent could use: Tomefaire, Axefaire, Lancebreaker, Strength +2, and then some filler (maybe Magic+2).

He could start the battle as a Dark Knight (to help Morgan meet survival thresholds) and then after finishing his job on the 4th round or at the start of the 5th round Second seal into Berserker to give Dual-strike support to Morgan.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh, CzarYoshi, is this the crit build you were suggesting (copied-and-pasted from your post)?

Sort of. You'd have to modify it a bit since you have no Rally Heart- Sage@WW gives +5, putting you at 66. You could then drop both Heart and a +Skl pairup (so DK would work) and still hit the 60 Skl required for it to work.

That build can sweep all of Wave 1, Wave 2's Tricksters, Ikeadin (I think I forgot about him when making my initial calcs, as he takes 2 more Atk to KO than Forseti Sage who I listed as the toughest target), Wave 4's Pavise Soldiers, and Wave 4's Sage squad. Are those targets worth enough to you to dedicate a Morgan pair to taking them down?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, Morgan was ALREADY being built around defeating Ikeadin and the Sage Squad. It was the entire point of going with:

Dark Knight Morgan (Defender, Speed+2, Tomefaire, Ignis, Galeforce) x Dark Knight arbitrary husband

This combination allowed for 59 defense and 56 resistance and 61 speed; enough the double Ikeadin and the regular sages while surviving (barely) and activated Aether or the Luna+ Celica's gale.

If I went with Lon'qu Laurent (+5 skill) then the Sorc would have 38+5 skill. Sage Morgan would give +7, and rally (Skill + spectrum) would give 8. Tonics would give 2. So that would also give 60 skill. 30 Crit, +50 from ruin. 80 crit

Then Gamble (10), Focus (10), Wrath (20), Vantage, Vengeance + Solidiarity (10) + Dual support+S-rank (15) + Anathema (effectively +10 by lowering dodge by -10). = 100 crit rate

And he'd also have +1 magic relative to Gregor!Laurent.

So this could also work… interesting. Fortunately, Lon'qu is free.

(Only Chrom/Sumia [preference], Avatar/Cordelia [preference], and Panne/Stahl [for Hit+20 Support berserker Yarne with +5 strength mod] are currently married).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Its given me something to think about.

While, of course, its not doing anything like 1-rounding Anna, that was going to be inconsistent anyways and I have other units (even the other sister herself) that could do that.

And even if I don't use that build, it might be a decent idea to do Lon'qu!Laurent to preserve the option.

On that note, as you've probably noticed, while your Rally Heart allowed example allowed for either Gregor or Lon'qu as the father, in this no-DLC (i.e, no rally heart) version, Lon'qu proves essential for that 1 extra skill to get away with a Sage support and still have the requisite 60 skill as a sorcerer after pair-up and rallies.

Gregor!Laurent in the no-DLC scenario would hit it with +8 skill classes supporting him [like Hero], but that would sacrifice more magic power in the pair-up, which in turn requires a larger Vengeance boost (only getting 3 magic instead of 9 in pair-up, in addition to naturally having 1 less magic, for a total of 7 less) to obtain the same results as a Sorcerer (need to be 14 HP lower).

On that note, if one is willing to trade 2 magic power (and thus require 4 more damage for the strategy to work correctly), Grandmaster could also function in the same core role as the Sage: Give the required +7 skill while also giving a magic boost (but only +7 instead of +8).

The advantage of doing so would be the ability to get Laurent to hit 62 speed (40 + 5 mod + 7 pair-up + 8 rallies + 2 tonics) instead of 58. In practice, given that Vantage or player-phase first strikes as appropriate would be allowing the enemy to be killed in one shot before they attacked, this would be basically unnecessary (Laurent doesn't necessarily need to avoid being doubled because of this), but if for some reason you wanted to retain the ability to double the fodder enemies (such as healing up for some reason and then having Morgan and Laurent trade off turns fighting in front as conventional combatants ) this could enable it.

Naturally, if you were doing this with the DLC rally heart, even Sage pair-up would let you hit 60 to do this, as you'd get 58+2 =60. But Grandmaster would be how to do this in no-DLC.

But I think that Sage and Sorcerer would be sufficient.

ADDENDUM:

It occurs to me that an alternate would be to use Sumia!Lucina as a Sniper….

45 Speed Sniper (40+5) + Assassin Support (9) + rally/tonic(10) + Speed +2 gives 66 speed. All the Sages except the Forseti Sage (62 speed) are doubled. But the funny thing is that the Foresti Sage would be far less dangerous as he doesn't have the double-attacking property, and 64 magic + 2 weapon rank + 14 from Foresti = 80 attack. Which means even with Luna+, he's not inflicting a kill, so he can be battled at a range of 2 without dying.

But anyways, an assassin generically has 48 skill, and its pair-up bonus gives +7. But 52 skill (from +4 skill Lucina) Sniper + 48 skill already gives 100 skill. 20 from rallies/tonics on both brings us to 120, allowing DS+ to give 100% dual strike rate.

So Lucina could have: Speed +2, Galeforce, Dual Strike+, Luna, choice of Bowfaire or Aether (I'd guess Aether for better burst damage chances?).

I suppose I could run a configuration like this:

Sumia!Lucina x husband TBD (to be determined)

Cordelia!Morgan* x husband TBD

Avatar!Severa* x huband TBD

Assassin Gaius!Noire x Stahl!Yarne*

Assassin Kjelle x Henry!Gerome

Avatar - -rally bot

Maribelle - rally bot

Olivia - Dancer

Chrom - Convoy Bot [use his turn to convoy and trade weapons/staves/items to key units, rather than making the attackers waste their own turns convoying from him]

6 Staff Bots - In a combination of Healtouch units and Hex/Anathema Units.

Also, if 3-range Sniper Lucina could provide a solution to the Sages, then Severa and/or Morgan no longer need to build around surviving combat against them (they still can, of course, to provide a redundant backup).

Of course, Lucina would take 2-3 turns to take them all out, and its a timed round…. Dancing for her would let her kill three on one turn.

ADDENDUM #2

To avoid double posting, I'm adding onto the end of my last post:

So, this is what I have as of this morning:

PAIRINGS SET IN STONE:

1. Chrom x Sumia

----> Lucina recruited

----> Cynthia still needs to be recruited

2. +Mag/-Def Avatar x Cordelia

-----> Neither Morgan nor Severa have been recruited yet

3. Stahl x Panne

------> Yarne has not been recruited yet

4. Gaius x Tharja

------> Noire has not been recruited yet

1 st GEN PAIRINGS PLANNED:

5. Henry x Cherche

6. Donnel x Sully

(1st GEN) PAIRINGS TO BE DETERMINED:

7. _____ x Nowi

8. ____ x Miriel

9. ____ x Olivia

10. ____ x Lissa

11. ____ x Maribelle

PARENTS REMAINING:

Frederick, Virion, Vaike, Kellam, Lon'qu, Ricken, Gregor, Libra

2nd Gen Pairings Planning:

1. Morgan x _______ [perhaps with a magical unit; Laurent was discussed in CzarYoshi's crit build, but there are other options]

2. Severa x _______

3. Kjelle x Gerome/Yarne (an Assassin that with pair-up/skills/rallies will reach or exceed 69 speed w/ a +5 str mod Berserker)

4. Noire x Yarne/Gerome (an Assassin that with pair-up/skills/rallies will reach or exceed 69 speed w/ a +5 str mod Berserker)

5. Lucina x _______ [perhaps with an Assassin so that I can get a 66 SPD, 48 Def Sniper Lucina with Speed +]

6. Cynthia x _______

Likely the forever alone 2nd gen due to pairing imbalance: Nah

Any suggestions?

Edited by astrophys
Link to comment
Share on other sites

How well they'll do sort of depends on what you want them for, but...

Henry x Maribelle: strong in postgame/DLC. Brady will be on the slow end, but that's all right.

Virion x Cherche: Gerome will make a good Warrior on higher difficulties and DLC. It's good.

Ricken x Cordelia: magical Severa isn't very common because physical Severa is so good, but Ricken!Severa can still do it well. This will also work.

Donnel!Nah!Morgan: partially depends on your Asset/Flaw. Postgame/DLC, Donnel!Nah has a really limited skill pool and won't work out well as a wife for your Avatar. Her mods are also pretty bad so Morgan won't get the best inheritance. Ingame, she'll be very strong once you get her going, but since Nah's paralogue is one of the hardest child paralogues (so you're likely to do it last), you won't get Morgan for a very long time. Donnel is also a net drag on your team on difficulties high enough for Morgan's stompiness to be fully appreciated. She'll still be fun once you get her, though.

Chrom!Inigo!Morgan: again, Asset/Flaw dependant. Postgame Chrom!Inigo's mods are good enough for him to do his thing, but they're not good enough to make the most of Morgan's potential. Inigo himself will be a very capable husband for Avatar, though, with a strong set of classes and skills and lots of options. Ingame, how good he is depends entirely on how willing and capable you are to power level Olivia to pass him GF and good stats- if he starts off good, he'll stay good, if he starts off bad, he's not worth it.

Anna!Morgan: Asset/Flaw. Anna doesn't have a lot to offer Avatar as a wife, both ingame and postgame. Her mods aren't particularly good either, and because her bases are very low for her level she won't grow much and Morgan will start weaker than normal. I don't advise this.

Virion!Nah: only worth it if you have the Bride DLC (Smash Brethren 2) and are aiming for postgame. Virion!Nah's class set is tiny so she has very few options, and he doesn't give her anything that will be particularly helpful in Manakete during the main story. She does have a few minor uses for making teams for Apo, but I doubt you'd find them significant.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Since people might not have seen that I made addenda to my prior post, I'll restate it here:

These are what I've been preparing for a no-DLC Apotheosis, as I noted in my prior posts/calculations.

PAIRINGS SET IN STONE:

1. Chrom x Sumia

----> Lucina recruited

----> Cynthia still needs to be recruited

2. +Mag/-Def Avatar x Cordelia

-----> Neither Morgan nor Severa have been recruited yet

3. Stahl x Panne

------> Yarne has not been recruited yet

4. Gaius x Tharja

------> Noire has not been recruited yet

1 st GEN PAIRINGS PLANNED:

5. Henry x Cherche

6. Donnel x Sully

(1st GEN) PAIRINGS TO BE DETERMINED:

7. _____ x Nowi

8. ____ x Miriel

9. ____ x Olivia

10. ____ x Lissa

11. ____ x Maribelle

PARENTS REMAINING:

Frederick, Virion, Vaike, Kellam, Lon'qu, Ricken, Gregor, Libra

2nd Gen Pairings Planning:

1. Morgan x _______ [perhaps with a magical unit; Laurent was discussed in CzarYoshi's crit build, but there are other options]

2. Severa x _______

3. Kjelle x Gerome/Yarne (an Assassin that with pair-up/skills/rallies will reach or exceed 69 speed w/ a +5 str mod Berserker)

4. Noire x Yarne/Gerome (an Assassin that with pair-up/skills/rallies will reach or exceed 69 speed w/ a +5 str mod Berserker)

5. Lucina x _______ [perhaps with an Assassin so that I can get a 66 SPD, 48 Def Sniper Lucina with Speed +]

6. Cynthia x _______

Likely the forever alone 2nd gen due to pairing imbalance: Nah

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey, calculations just got me wondering about this... a while ago, like before I knew about hacks (not sure if it was before hacks became a thing), I saw a picture on miiverse that showed owain on exponential growth attacking an entombed, and Owain's battle stats for the fight listed 100 damage, 100% accuracy, and 100% critical. This is completely and totally impossible to have all at once, right? I'm not crazy?

Let's assume Sage Libra!Owain (personal favorite), who has 60 Mag and 54 Skill after Limit Breaker.

Owain's skills: LB/Tomefaire/Gamble/filler

Pairup partner's skills: Anathema/Solidarity/DualSupport+/filler

Owain's weapon: Katarina's Bolt with +3 Mt/+15 Crit --> 14 Mt, 45 Crit.

60 Mag w/ LB

+14 Mt Katarina's Bolt

+2 weapon rank bonus

+9 with Sage pairup

+2 Tonics

+10 Rallies

+5 Tomefaire

= 102 Atk.

54 skill w/ LB

+7 Sage pairup/+2 Tonics/+10 Rallies = 73 skill --> 36 base Crit

+45 crit Katarina's Bolt

+20 from supports

+10 from Solidarity

+10 from Anathema

+10 from Gamble

= 131 Crit.

Level 30 Entombed has 1 Res and 30 Luck - do the math. 100% hit is a given.

Note that Owain can increase his Crit even further with Wrath, and can increase his displayed Atk a LOT further with Aggressor, Special Dance, Barracks surge, etc.

EDIT: decrease the Mt forge by 1 so it comes out to exactly 100 damage lol

EDIT2: for a self-sufficient build that doesn't rely on the presence of anyone besides his pairup partner

I think the highest amount of crit you can get from supports without having anyone adjacent is +15. The absence of rallies also reduces -5 crit. But you can now use Focus to get an additional +10.

Taking the skillset mentioned above and adding in Focus+Wrath while dropping Tomefaire gives Owain 151 crit when he is under half HP, without the help of allies other than his pairup partner. This gives him 100% listed crit against probably every enemy in the game outside of Apotheosis. Attack will be a bit lower than before, but enemies will not have enough Res to drop the listed damage to below 27 before the crit multiplier. Use Vantage in the last filler slot and go nuts. (Vulnerable to Longbows and maybe Aegis)

Edited by Bovinian
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If Nah is meant to be alone and space permits (more Staffbots are good, especially in challenge runs), she might find some use as a TF/Mag+2 Mire poker with Libra as her father. Against a handful of targets the extra damage could give you a much higher (or 100%) chance of an OHKO.

GKs are usually bad, but you might be able to consider one on Cynthia- with a +3 support she'll hit 60 Spd and have a lot of Str to show for it. No LB means plenty of room for Hit+20 as well to alleviate GK's Hit problems.

I also don't advise using quite so many Assassins. 60 Spd is your big threshold- there are really only four enemies you want more for (Anna for Aether survival, three Berserkers possibly for doubling- but not required). You're in a much bigger shortage of Atk (and potentially Mov), so consider swapping some of them to something else. Keeping some is a good idea, just not that many (for example, I see Paladin Kjelle hitting 60 comfortably with a Berserker support, even with Donnel as her father- she'll be gaining 2 Str and 2 Mov over Assassin with that).

Speaking of Kjelle... Donnel!Kjelle would need both Spd+2 and Defender to hit 69 with a Berserker. I don't think that's a good use of skillslots unless it achieves a 100% ORKO.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So this is what I am looking at for pairings/final pairings and classes. This would easily suffice for main game and is workable for apo, as far as I can tell. Any glaring flaws that make it unworkable?


+Spd - Def MaMU


Henry!Brady(Sage) x Cordelia!Morgan F (Valkyrie)

Morgan F: GF, Deliverer, Luna, Lancebreaker

Brady: Aggressor, GF, Anathema, Luna


Stahl!Yarne (Berserker) x Sumia!Lucina (Sniper) (could mess w/ pairings and do VV, but I don't like it that much, and it's hardly necessary with a fully spec'd team.)

Lucina: Aether, DS+, Luna, GF

Yarne: Hit +20, Luna, Aggressor, Axefaire


Frederick!Inigo (Berserker) x Gaius!Noire (Sniper)

Noire: GF, Luna, Anathema, Bowfaire

Inigo: Axefaire, Aggressor, Deliverer, GF


Gregor!Laurent (Sage) x MaMU!Severa (Valkyrie)

Severa: GF, Deliverer, Luna, Lancebreaker

Laurent: Aggressor, Tomebreaker, Anathema, Luna


Ricken!Owain (Sage) x Chrom!Cynthia (Dark Flier)

Owain: GF, Hit +20, Aggressor, Tomefaire

Cynthia: GF, Luna, Tomefaire, Aether


Vaike!Gerome (?) - Donnel!Kjelle (?)

Kjelle: ?

Gerome: ?

Edited by Nicholai
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Honestly you COULD just run that team, and you'd be perfectly fine for Apotheosis. It's a solid shell, a lot of magical pairs make it very easy.

That being said, I'll give my personal advice here for Apotheosis:

Henry!Brady(Sage) x Cordelia!Morgan F (Valkyrie)

Morgan F: GF, Deliverer, Luna, Lancebreaker
Brady: Aggressor, GF, Anathema, Luna

Lancebreaker is mostly unnecessary on Morgan. You have guaranteed kill on Anna, and it's impossible for you to die to her as long as you're fighting her from full HP, so I'd run Tomefaire to increase her damage when she's in the Support role. Ignis > Luna in general as well, though you can run whatever you want (it's a slight advantage for Ignis).

Brady would probably run Tomefaire in place of Anathema for higher damage as well. If you really want to run Anathema, I'd recommend replacing Deliverer on Morgan; she's already an 8 Move unit and will have 10 Move after Rallies.

Stahl!Yarne (Berserker) x Sumia!Lucina (Sniper) (could mess w/ pairings and do VV, but I don't like it that much, and it's hardly necessary with a fully spec'd team.)

Lucina: Aether, DS+, Luna, GF
Yarne: Hit +20, Luna, Aggressor, Axefaire

Lucina looks great!

Luna is mostly useless on Yarne for Apotheosis purposes. He's not going to be in the Lead role at all to use it, so run either Swordbreaker (basically to counteract WTD) or AS+2 (filler, slightly more damage, Hit, etc.).

Frederick!Inigo (Berserker) x Gaius!Noire (Sniper)

Noire: GF, Luna, Anathema, Bowfaire
Inigo: Axefaire, Aggressor, Deliverer, GF

For double Galeforce pairs (Galepairs), you generally run a proc on each pair because most of the time you won't have 100% DS (a Sniper-Berserker pair will likely have around ~94%). A proc activation (i.e. Luna) will help make up for a missed DS and help secure kills more consistently.

Basically, I'm recommending Inigo replace Deliverer with Luna :P

Gregor!Laurent (Sage) x MaMU!Severa (Valkyrie)

Severa: GF, Deliverer, Luna, Lancebreaker
Laurent: Aggressor, Tomebreaker, Anathema, Luna

Like Morgan, Severa would likely want to run Tomefaire in place of Lancebreaker. Deliverer is fine, while Ignis is another option if you want to procstack excessively.

Tomebreaker & Luna are both pretty much useless on Laurent; he's not going to be the Lead to use Luna, and none of the Tome-wielding enemies have enough Avoid for it to be worth it. I'd just run Tomefaire & Dual Support+ / AS+2.

Ricken!Owain (Sage) x Chrom!Cynthia (Dark Flier)

Owain: GF, Hit +20, Aggressor, Tomefaire
Cynthia: GF, Luna, Tomefaire, Aether

Cynthia is great.

Like Inigo, Owain's going to want to run a proc (Luna) in place of Hit+20.

Vaike!Gerome (?) - Donnel!Kjelle (?)

Kjelle: ?
Gerome: ?

Of course, with Vaike!Gerome & Donnel!Kjelle, a physical option is going to be preferable.

I'd personally run something like:

Donnel!Kjelle @Falcon Knight [Galeforce | Luna | Astra | Lancefaire]

Henry!Gerome @Berserker [Aggressor | Axefaire | Hex | Anathema]

Hits 75 Speed (doubles everything),

Another option for Kjelle is Swordfaire Assassin with AS+2 (replacing Astra & Lancefaire), and running Henry!Gerome as Wyvern Lord with the same skill setup. This also hits 75 Speed, with Kjelle losing mobility as an Assassin but damage output increasing.

Edited by burgerkong
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Morgan and Severa: Lancebreaker isn't going to be doing them much good since they'll be blicking everything before it can touch them and should never get OHKOed anyway. They'd really like to procstack Ignis and Luna (or use All+2 if you're +Mag instead of +Spd), and if you really think you have a spare non-combat skillslot, AT could save money since they're likely to be some of your most-used units. They're also both lacking Tomefaire, which will significantly impact their offenses, especially without a procstack. Deliverer is nice but since they already have 8 Mov, they won't be hurting for Mov anyway.

Brady: no TF will hurt his output as well. Since Tomes can't get WTD they don't usually have Hit problems, so his pair should be fine without Anathema.

Yarne: Luna does nothing in the back so he can't use it. If your Hit is fine you could switch to All+2, and if it's not, Prescience is a good option. He'll rarely get to be up front to use it, but can also take a Deliverer inheritance and act as Lucina's ferry in a lull.

Inigo: Berserker isn't his best class, to be honest (he'd want to go Libra to be the best Berserker he can be). The lack of +Hit skills and reliable procs hurts him too much- he'd rather be in a higher-Skl class like Hero. If you do want to use him as a Berserker, he'll want a proc (Luna) to use when up front. Deliverer is the best thing to put this over, since double Galepairs always end their turn with the girl up front so he won't get to use it to ferry her into combat ever.

Laurent: see Yarne, Luna won't have any effect on him. Anathema also won't do too much unless you just like crits, but all he'd be running over it anyway is a few minor +Atk skills.

Owain: he needs Atk, not Hit. Trade Hit+20 for Luna.

Gerome and Kjelle: they're in an unfortunate spot as leftovers and can't compliment eachother well at all. Gerome is probably going to be a Berserker (Hero is a higher-Hit option), which leaves Kjelle able to take any class she has (except General, Falco and Assassin) and remain in the same Spd bracket. You might as well go as a Wyvern Lord or Paladin (Luna/Astra/LF/GF as skills).

I'd personally run something like:

Donnel!Kjelle @Falcon Knight [Galeforce | Luna | Astra | Lancefaire]

Henry!Gerome @Berserker [Aggressor | Axefaire | Hex | Anathema]

Hits 75 Speed (doubles everything),

Another option for Kjelle is Swordfaire Assassin with AS+2 (replacing Astra & Lancefaire), and running Henry!Gerome as Wyvern Lord with the same skill setup. This also hits 75 Speed, with Kjelle losing mobility as an Assassin but damage output increasing.

I think the Falco set will have much higher damage output than the Assassin set. Trading Astra for All+2 is already not made up for by the +2 Str and +3 Skl from Assassin, and then Gerome is losing 4 Atk on each of his DSes...

Edited by Czar_Yoshi
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lancebreaker is mostly unnecessary on Morgan. You have guaranteed kill on Anna, and it's impossible for you to die to her as long as you're fighting her from full HP, so I'd run Tomefaire to increase her damage when she's in the Support role. Ignis > Luna in general as well, though you can run whatever you want (it's a slight advantage for Ignis).

That's perfect. With so many skills and an uncertainty on what it takes to ORKO, I just threw on what gives me the best chance. Thinking a damage skills like tomefaire is better if I can survive an aether activation, though. If ignis takes into account boosts from every source, then I can see how it has an edge. I assumed it didn't, and hadn't looked it up. That's why I come here :D

Brady would probably run Tomefaire in place of Anathema for higher damage as well. If you really want to run Anathema, I'd recommend replacing Deliverer on Morgan; she's already an 8 Move unit and will have 10 Move after Rallies.

The reason for this was to be able to move the aura wherever it was needed, if it was needed. Deliverer was just kind of the only skill-boosted way of getting that much mov. It'll most likely be unneeded, though, so I might change it around. Dual proc on Morgan can never hurt.

Luna is mostly useless on Yarne for Apotheosis purposes. He's not going to be in the Lead role at all to use it, so run either Swordbreaker (basically to counteract WTD) or AS+2 (filler, slightly more damage, Hit, etc.).

I didn't want to force mega support on Yarne, as he can double basically everything. He's best in the back, of course, but I think there's value in offensive utility. That said, breakers - specifically the sword variety - solve hit issues more than just hit +20. I'll have to reconsider the value of Luna on such a good support.

For double Galeforce pairs (Galepairs), you generally run a proc on each pair because most of the time you won't have 100% DS (a Sniper-Berserker pair will likely have around ~94%). A proc activation (i.e. Luna) will help make up for a missed DS and help secure kills more consistently.

The Inigo set was a mistake from when I was considering Lon' qu as his father. I meant to have given him Luna over deliverer.

Basically, I'm recommending Inigo replace Deliverer with Luna :P

I'm responding as I go down the reply, so this advice made me laugh. I mean, in a good way.

Like Morgan, Severa would likely want to run Tomefaire in place of Lancebreaker. Deliverer is fine, while Ignis is another option if you want to procstack excessively.

You can probably tell be now, but I do love my hyper mobility. Lead breakers aren't that good, I know, but I had them there b/c Anna scared me. I'll definitely swap those.

Tomebreaker & Luna are both pretty much useless on Laurent; he's not going to be the Lead to use Luna, and none of the Tome-wielding enemies have enough Avoid for it to be worth it. I'd just run Tomefaire & Dual Support+ / AS+2.

Like Yarne, I felt like Laurent is kind of a god and could make dank memes happen on enemy phase with VV. What do you think about something like that? Is seems silly and tough to set up, especially when I'll already have enough offensive to clear the field.

Cynthia is great.

Anything that can stack aether is easy to build :P

Like Inigo, Owain's going to want to run a proc (Luna) in place of Hit+20.

I hate Owain. I wish he never got to fight in front. Anyway, this is great advice...

Of course, with Vaike!Gerome & Donnel!Kjelle, a physical option is going to be preferable.

I'd personally run something like:

Donnel!Kjelle @Falcon Knight [Galeforce | Luna | Astra | Lancefaire]

Henry!Gerome @Berserker [Aggressor | Axefaire | Hex | Anathema]

Hits 75 Speed (doubles everything),

Another option for Kjelle is Swordfaire Assassin with AS+2 (replacing Astra & Lancefaire), and running Henry!Gerome as Wyvern Lord with the same skill setup. This also hits 75 Speed, with Kjelle losing mobility as an Assassin but damage output increasing.

So, basically, I don't really want to pull henry from Brady because he'll lose those magic mods. Ricken kind of has to go to Owain because he's sort of a trash unit without him.

I just bolded my stuff b/c I don't want to bother with the quote system. Thanks for the advice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

CzarYoshi makes a good point about Assassins… noted.

Kjelle would be able to get to the Anna Survival defense threshold with the use of three and also get the speed to fight the Berserker…. but you make the good point that she's already wasting a lot of slots. I'll rethink her…

But wouldn't 65 speed be useful against the 3 "Invincisorcs" (i.e. 99 luck Sorcerers with Miracles). You know, for doubling them?

Although I suppose a Sniper Sumia!Lucina x assassin (hits 66 speed just with speed+2) could be useful against them instead. And conveniently, that also provides 100% DS assuming a non-negative SKL mod assassin and tonics/rallies, regardless who is up front.

A Lucina with:

Speed +2, Galeforce, Dual Strike+, Luna, Aether OR Bowfaire

Might be of use as a Sniper…

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...