PAIRINGS The Pairing Thread

[xirei]

If you're magical, the class caps and pairup bonuses of Sage and Grandmaster, the best hard support options for a dark flier royal family girl (Grandmaster is weaker but gets her to 75 speed), mean that your pair is less in need of DS+ than one of the royal sisters who's running Sniper + berserker. Thus, if you're running magical, marry Cynthia, not Lucina, because you definitely want one of the royal sisters to be a berserker-backed sniper, and that pair will be more in need of DS+ than the magical pair. Morgan will be identical no matter which sister you marry.

So just to be clear I want to pair MaMu(Grandmaster) x Cynthia(DF) and Lucina(Sniper) x Berserker if my goal is to run VVDS+ on Lucina? But if I wanted another VVDS+ pair I would want to marry Lucina and pass that down?

Thanks for the help, do you have any suggestions for the rest of the pairings? I'm a total noob at this

[Alastor15243]

So just to be clear I want to pair MaMu(Grandmaster) x Cynthia(DF) and Lucina(Sniper) x Berserker if my goal is to run VVDS+ on Lucina? But if I wanted another VVDS+ pair I would want to marry Lucina and pass that down?

Thanks for the help, do you have any suggestions for the rest of the pairings? I'm a total noob at this

Oh if you're doing VVDS then definitely marry Lucina. But in general, you want to take two husbands, work out which pair with those stats would have the lower DS rate, and make sure the lower DS pair has DS+.

And you can't pass down DS+, only Aether/Rightful King can be passed down from Chrom or his children to Morgan.

[MelonGx]

The following idea increases more VV100%DS tanks:

MaMU (+Skl) x Sully / Sumia / Cordelia = 2 Skl+7 daughters @ Sage

LB, Vantage, Vengeance, All+2, Skl+2

Skl = 43+7+10(LB)+10(Rallies)+2(Tonic)+2(All+2)+2(Skl+2)=76

Boys to pair-up (LB, Weaponfaire, All+2, Skl+2, anything)

Assassin: 48+x+26+6(Pair-up bonus)=80+x, x=4

Sniper: 48+y+26+7=81+y, y=3

Hero: 46+z+26+7=79+z, z=5

(If no Skl+2, then x=x+2, z=z+2)

But there is a problem to choose the boys suitable for this idea.

Gerome can't achieve Skl+3 Sniper without Barracks.

Virion/Stahl!Laurent is OK but Laurent is already set for Lucina.

If Chrom!Cynthia exists then Virion!Yarne is also used.

Edited June 22, 2015 by MelonGx

[Vascela]

I've never needed more than two 1 hp vengeance sages, and that's considering the "challenge" runs that I do. What's your exact purpose for those setups? With one post talking about Aether, and another talking about vvds+, I'm getting mixed signals as to what you want.

[bodybagfor8bucks]

Quick question if you had to bench two kids, one male and one female, who would you choose? Im making a new team for a new apo run and I am deciding to cut Nah and either gerome or yarne. I personally believe that owain is worth keeping just for galeforce ddespite the few negative criticisms he gets.

Edited June 23, 2015 by bodybagfor8bucks

[Ownagepuffs]

Probably Noire and Gerome.

[Czar_Yoshi]

How do you typically build a team? Do you focus on creating the strongest children first and then pair them between each other, or try to create the best pairings and find children to work with each other? I'm trying to get started on teambuilding but I have no idea where/how I should begin. What are some typical strategies for attackers and supports?

I come up with some base- a theme, goal, or predetermined pairing or two that I want to build the team around ("beat Apo" isn't a very useful goal), and go from there. There's no One Team that you can get from following a formula from the very start.

Once I have my base and know what size I want my team to be, I size up my requirements. If the conditions I want my team to meet are lenient enough that I think everyone can meet them, I throw fathers on semirandomly, just making sure I get my goal on each unit, and then shuffle fathers around in mutually beneficial trades until everyone has what they need. Typically I assign child pairs when switching one of their fathers, but they're a good deal more flexible than the parents and sometimes all but one or two wait to the end to be done.

On the other hand, if my requirements have some strict goals that not everyone can or needs to hit, I focus on the different tasks that need accomplishing and try to build pairs for each one. I usually go about this by treating differently fathered versions of the same child as separate units valued in terms of power and opportunity cost (for example, having a Virion!Severa means I can't get a Virion!Yarne), and then getting the lowest cost pair that can do each job, in order of hardest job to easiest job, while still making sure that all my pairs are good for general combat. Once that's done, I look over how much leeway I have and sometimes swap similar fathers that will still get the job done but provide a boost elsewhere, but those swaps are usually fairly complex.

My current general strategy focuses on hitting 75 Spd and then maximizing Mov and Atk. 220 Hit is another benchmark, as is 160 combined Skl (but that's not something everyone goes for). Doing this ensures that a pair will be able to do anything you might ask them to do that another pair could reasonably do as well, giving you a large amount of freedom in the map itself. You can also step down to 69 Spd- the next highest significant Spd threshold- if you feel like you'd have to make significant sacrifices to hit 75.

Not everyone plays this way, but it works well for me and is suited for answering the most common types of questions I answer ("I ship X and Y, how do I make them/their children as good as possible?").

As for general skillsets, female leads use LB/GF/Faire/Proc and either another proc or All+2 (Lucina uses DSt+ in place of her Faire). Males with GF use LB/Agg/GF/Faire/Proc, and males without use LB/Agg/Faire/All+2/+Hit skill. Females without GF do all sorts of things and there's no general formula. These are more of guidelines than hard rules and it's totally fine to break them, but if you're going to do that make sure you know why you want to.

Need a beginning point for your team, and have no gameplay goals? That's what aesthetics are for.

Love this. Just wondering why you omitted some populars like Fred for Inigo or Henry/Libra for Yarne.

Same reason I usually do: the list is from memory and changes every time.

Forgetting Avatar and Morgan is just a derp, though. I'll do them when I'm more awake.

Before this, I'd like to say I'm sorry for asking about my pairings so much, I just want to try some new things and you guys are always reliable and help out. So thank you, and I'm sorry

Anyway, this is mostly just adjusting to changing to avatar x Sumia

Chrom!Inigo @ Paladin (GF, AT, Luna, Aggressor) X Vaike!Nah @ Hero (AT, Luna, Axefaire, Deliverer)

~Typical Hero x Paladin pair. Inigo kills something, then switches to Nah and kills something else

Gaius!Kjelle @ Paladin (GF, Luna, Astra, Lancefaire) X Henry!Gerome @ Berserker (Anathema, Axefaire, Aggressor, AS+2)

~Again, she can hit 75 speed and has a reliable and powerful hard support in Gerome

+Spd-Def!Avatar!Cynthia @ Wyvern Lord (GF, AT, Luna, Axefaire) X Virion!Yarne @ Berserker (H+20, Axefaire, Aggressor, AS+2))

~She can pretty easily hit 75 speed with 46 regularly and a berserker support. They'll be a pretty great team

Donnel!Noire @ Sniper (GF, AT, Luna, Bowfaire) X Ricken!Owain @ Sage (GF, Luna, Aggressor, Tomefaire)

~Sniper x Sage normal. I figured the weakest sniper would want the sage that could do the most damage

Sumia!Morgan @ Valkyrie (GF, AT, Luna, Tomefaire) X Lon'qu!Brady @ Sage (GF, Luna, Aggressor, Tomefaire)

~Morgan I think still hits 75 with a massive 51 base and sage support, and she serves as an extra staffbot if needed. Brady is Brady

Stahl!Severa @ Assassin (GF, AT, Luna, Bowfaire) X Gregor!Laurent @ Sage (AT, Aggressor, Tomefaire, Anathema)

~Again I think she hits 75 with a sage support, and has amazingly high skill and a good support partner for damage

As for Lucina, I think she'd be best off paired with Chrom for Apo, with her as a paladin and him as either a sniper or a bowfaire!bow knight. I think her DS+ will allow them to hit 100% so they can still be a reliable offensive pair.

Alright, so I always say this is my final setup, but chances are I'll find something I don't like about it and be back (Sorry!)

No need to apologize- I'm under no obligation to be here, and if I found helping people to be boring in the least I'd pack my bags and leave. Questions give me stuff to do and a reason to keep coming back.

Inigo: Since he has Nah as a ferry, he's not obligated to remain in Paladin (especially since you're not packing a Faire). You could run anything you want on him (though Nah won't hit 69 Spd without a +Spd pairup). Notably, Hero in Inigo reaches 75 Spd.

Cynthia: If she's going to be packing Axes, she may benefit from swapping husbands with Kjelle to get a Hex boost. Her Hit will be OK, but not fabulous.

Noire: Be warned that both her and Owain will fail to hit 69 Spd (and Noire can't even if you give her All+2). That's a really slow pair, and not what you want for a Double Bow user. I'd strongly recommend getting a better Sniper.

Morgan: She's fast enough to upgrade to DF for more Skl and flight, actually. I'd recommend doing that and switching from Luna to Ignis, unless you just like Valkyries. Brady hits 75 either way so he doesn't care what she does.

Severa: She could be your team's Sniper. As-is, she'll hit 69 perfectly with a Sage and no All+2. It's also possible to swap Virion and Stahl here, since Gregor!Laurent has high potential to switch to physical and you could then run another Wyvern x Berserker set if you want (and Yarne can probably use the Str more than Severa). More Severa Skl, too. Her and Laurent might even be within range of 100% DS if you wanted to reach for it.

Lucina: DSt+ doesn't stack with itself, so her and Chrom at A with one of them using it will have the same DS as someone with S and no DSt+. Chrom is still an exceptionally good unit, but Lucina may see more use out of a Gerome S support. It's up to you, though.

So just to be clear I want to pair MaMu(Grandmaster) x Cynthia(DF) and Lucina(Sniper) x Berserker if my goal is to run VVDS+ on Lucina? But if I wanted another VVDS+ pair I would want to marry Lucina and pass that down?

Before trying to get a ton of VV pairs, figure out whether you even want one. It may be famous, but it's neither necessary nor even that great (in general). VV pairs don't play well with the rest of your team, tend to feel extremely redundant on non-challenge runs, and can be difficult to use safely. I never recommend throwing one in "just because"- only use one if you already know what you need it to fight and why it's a good option to get the job done.

Probably Noire and Gerome.

Same here. Noire and Nah have very similar roles but Noire is just a little less interesting to me, and Laurent does everything Gerome does but better.

[Bunselpower]

Question, what,if anything, is the added effect of dual support plus on supports above an S support? In other words, what more does it do that a Max support pair don't already receive?

[Alastor15243]

Question, what,if anything, is the added effect of dual support plus on supports above an S support? In other words, what more does it do that a Max support pair don't already receive?

Supports "above" an S support? Are you asking if there's any benefit to having DSp+ if you've already got enough high supports paired up and adjacent to you to achieve the maximum support bonus possible? If so, then no. If that was a mistake and you're asking if there's any benefit to using DSp+ when you've already achieved an S support, then yes, it does raise the bonus further because you need a bunch of high support people adjacent to get the maximum bonus.

[Bunselpower]

The second one was worded pretty much exactly as I meant it, but I'll try again.

What are the dual support bonuses for a married pair without DuSu+?

What are the dual support bonuses for a married pair with DuSu+?

I want to make sure I'm reading and interpreting the chart correctly, I'm interested in the differences.

[Alastor15243]

It sounded like you were under the impression it's possible to get a letter support higher than an S support.

Anyway, without DSp+ it's +15 hit, +10 avoid, +10 crit and +10 dodge. WITH DSp+ it's +20 hit, +15 avoid, +15 crit and +15 dodge.

And to clarify, dodge is your critical avoid.

[xirei]

Thanks for the great explanation, definitely really useful in getting me started. I have a quick question though- when people are saying they need to hit 75 Spd or 220, what are the exact calculations to get there? Can you walk me through some examples, ie for reaching 75 Speed- Unit A x Unit B= Unit A's max stats (from class + inheritance) + Support level (2) + B's stats (3) + Rallies (10) + Tonics (2) + B's support class + A's skills + B's skills (Which ones count btw, I know the faires do?). Are those everything, or did I miss some?

Also what would I need to do to calculate Attack? I know there's some variables I'm missing

[Bunselpower]

I can actually help you somewhat here, as I'm calculating stuff now.

http://old.serenesforest.net/fe13/calculation.html

Another question for the group at large, 220 hit, I assume, is the magic number for 100 percent hit rate for all or at least most of the enemies, right?

[Alastor15243]

Thanks for the great explanation, definitely really useful in getting me started. I have a quick question though- when people are saying they need to hit 75 Spd or 220, what are the exact calculations to get there? Can you walk me through some examples, ie for reaching 75 Speed- Unit A x Unit B= Unit A's max stats (from class + inheritance) + Support level (2) + B's stats (3) + Rallies (10) + Tonics (2) + B's support class + A's skills + B's skills (Which ones count btw, I know the faires do?). Are those everything, or did I miss some?

Also what would I need to do to calculate Attack? I know there's some variables I'm missing

The base universal support bonus (+3) plus tonics (+2) plus rallies (+10 or 14 if it's luck) + limit breaker (10) adds up to 25. So you add 25 to whatever this page says your unit's speed is here: http://old.serenesforest.net/fe13/class_max.htmlalong with your partner's additional speed bonus, if any, and see if that adds up to 75.

[MelonGx]

I've never needed more than two 1 hp vengeance sages, and that's considering the "challenge" runs that I do. What's your exact purpose for those setups? With one post talking about Aether, and another talking about vvds+, I'm getting mixed signals as to what you want.

Just to show that it exists.

Sage x Sniper hasn't got enough total power to deal with NS/Zerker/etc. But 3 VV100%DS tanks can reduce the time on Wave 1 for time attack.

For 100%DS Chrom!Cynthia, you can save Lucina pair for tanking, just to use Cynthia for Longbow shooting.

[Vascela]

Status update for me, I finished all calcs up to wave 5. Technically I've "done" the calcs for the recurring mobs. All that's left is turn management + Anna, and then the actual run.

[Admiral "Bull" Halsey]

Speaking of Assets/Flaws, I often choose +Mag/-Luck for my FeMU (whenever I start a new save). For some reason, I feel that its consistent but that's just me : /

[MelonGx]

Status update for me, I finished all calcs up to wave 5. Technically I've "done" the calcs for the recurring mobs. All that's left is turn management + Anna, and then the actual run.

Well, we don't have any emulator which can perform TAS.

Generally speaking, ending up the turn to KO enemy in enemy phase is faster than controlling Double-Gales to KO enemies on player phase.

Edited June 24, 2015 by MelonGx

[Czar_Yoshi]

He's planning a console run, not a TAS. But by eliminating all sources of RNG through careful planning, you can still get TAS-like control over your run.

[Bunselpower]

OK, since my last attempt sparked a two page long rabbit trail, I'm going to try again, this time with a shuffling of what I had last time. These are the ones I have pretty much lined up (you know, unless you guys tell me I'm off and then I'll change it).

Lon'qu X Cordelia

Stahl X Panne

Henry X Cherche

Gaius X Sully

Chrom X Sumia

Libra X Olivia

Gregor X Miriel

Avatar X Cynthia/Lucina

Ricken X Lissa

Virion X Maribelle

And here are some plans for pairs I have been tossing around

Lucina X Inigo

Kjelle X Yarne/Gerome

Severa X Gerome/Yarne (leaning Yarne for warrior bow faire option)

Avatar X Cynthia

And the two unmarried as of yet are Nowi and Tharja, with a pool of Frederick, Kellam, Donnel, and Vaike from which to choose. I was really wanting a double bow sniper with Noire, but Vaike seems to do more for Nah than Noire, giving her a much needed faire and the Hero class to use it. I'm leaning towards that, with Frederick going towards Tharja. Is there a preference here? Or is there an alignment that I'm not seeing that would help?

Secondly, I have a tentative plan to pair myself with Cynthia, allowing Lucina to pair with Inigo. Looking at it, Inigo is very versatile with how he can support, and gets Galeforce. Here's a question, is there a reason why the extra point in magic and skill would push Laurent as the go to pair for Lucina? Inigo gets everything that he does, and has the bonus of Galeforce just in case I'm feeling like doing that. I didn't realize just how good Libra actually is for Inigo.

Thank you in advance for all helpful comments, you guys are awesome.

[Alastor15243]

OK, since my last attempt sparked a two page long rabbit trail, I'm going to try again, this time with a shuffling of what I had last time. These are the ones I have pretty much lined up (you know, unless you guys tell me I'm off and then I'll change it).

Lon'qu X Cordelia

Stahl X Panne

Henry X Cherche

Gaius X Sully

Chrom X Sumia

Libra X Olivia

Gregor X Miriel

Avatar X Cynthia/Lucina

Ricken X Lissa

Virion X Maribelle

And here are some plans for pairs I have been tossing around

Lucina X Inigo

Kjelle X Yarne/Gerome

Severa X Gerome/Yarne (leaning Yarne for warrior bow faire option)

Avatar X Cynthia

And the two unmarried as of yet are Nowi and Tharja, with a pool of Frederick, Kellam, Donnel, and Vaike from which to choose. I was really wanting a double bow sniper with Noire, but Vaike seems to do more for Nah than Noire, giving her a much needed faire and the Hero class to use it. I'm leaning towards that, with Frederick going towards Tharja. Is there a preference here? Or is there an alignment that I'm not seeing that would help?

Secondly, I have a tentative plan to pair myself with Cynthia, allowing Lucina to pair with Inigo. Looking at it, Inigo is very versatile with how he can support, and gets Galeforce. Here's a question, is there a reason why the extra point in magic and skill would push Laurent as the go to pair for Lucina? Inigo gets everything that he does, and has the bonus of Galeforce just in case I'm feeling like doing that. I didn't realize just how good Libra actually is for Inigo.

Thank you in advance for all helpful comments, you guys are awesome.

Seeing how you have two +hit berserkers in Yarne and Gerome (you also technically have one in Laurent), you DEFINITELY want to make the most use of them, namely finding two girls who can reach 75 speed in high-power classes with a berserker support. Lucina and Cynthia can do so in Sniper, and both Gaius!Kjelle and Lon'qu!Severa can do this with wyvern lord if they use AS+2 (Severa also has the option to reach 75 speed without any additional help as a hero). You DEFINITELY want either Lucina or Cynthia to be a sniper, because snipers are extremely good units, you want at least one, and Lucina and Cynthia are by far the best snipers in the game. As such, I'd personally advise against pairing Inigo with Lucina, I'd go with Gerome or Yarne or maybe even Gregor!Laurent as a berserker (though be warned you should only do this if your party is abnormally physical-heavy in terms of girls, because otherwise one of your magical girls will lack a solid hard support. Work out who's magic and who's not first).

I've heard good things about Frederick!Noire I believe, not sure, and Vaike!Nah is quite good.

[Bunselpower]

The way I was looking at it was this. Kjelle and Severa basically have no desire or even option to ever be magical or anything. So I wanted to give them the most physical supports I have, namely Gerome and Yarne. And if Laurent is going to be considered as a berserker support, then Inigo deserves the same consideration, as he would be less of a waste than Laurent because of Laurent's potency as a magic support. Either way, there isn't enough pure physicality to go around. (well that looks weird written out)

UNLESS, there is another configuration that will let me get a plus hit to Yarne without crapping out his mods too much so I can get Stahl over to Inigo. Libra and Virion seem like the only options, and Virion is currently giving a nice speed boost to Brady.

[Alastor15243]

The way I was looking at it was this. Kjelle and Severa basically have no desire or even option to ever be magical or anything. So I wanted to give them the most physical supports I have, namely Gerome and Yarne. And if Laurent is going to be considered as a berserker support, then Inigo deserves the same consideration, as he would be less of a waste than Laurent because of Laurent's potency as a magic support. Either way, there isn't enough pure physicality to go around. (well that looks weird written out)

UNLESS, there is another configuration that will let me get a plus hit to Yarne without crapping out his mods too much so I can get Stahl over to Inigo. Libra and Virion seem like the only options, and Virion is currently giving a nice speed boost to Brady.

This is why I highly dislike making Inigo magical. He's pretty much the only decent option for a physical galeboy if you're not going female avatar, and physical galeboys are quite useful. And from what I've heard, Inigo does NOT want to be a berserker, it's a pretty crappy class for a galeboy, since it has low skill and won't proc very often. Anyway, depending on what you want Stahl on Inigo for, Frederick might be a suitable substitute, I've used Frederick!Inigo the last two times on my no-brave runs to great effect.

[xirei]

I've made a few modifications to my team, here are the pairings I have now:

Physical:

Gaius!Kjelle X Virion!Yarne

Lon'qu!Severa X Henry!Gerome

Stahl!Inigo X Vaike!Nah

Magical:

Sumia!Lucina X AvatarM(+Mag/-Def) VVDS

Sumia!Lucina!MorganF(+Mag/-Def) X Ricken!Owain

Sumia!Cynthia X Libra!Brady

Donnel!Noire X Gregor!Laurent

Can anyone point out any problems with these pairings, as well as what classes they should be to get the best performance? Thanks!

[Czar_Yoshi]

So I wanted to give them the most physical supports I have, namely Gerome and Yarne.

Just sayin' but your Gerome has a +2 Mag mod and Tomefaire. That's hardly physical-locked.