PAIRINGS The Pairing Thread

[Admiral "Bull" Halsey]

The only logic for Vaike!Owain is that it exists only to compensate for Owain's mentality and his 'sword-hands'... : /

But the main issues I think is the lack of proc-skills (Luna, Vengeance, etc.)

Edited September 29, 2015 by Formerly Colm

[Radiant head]

I assumed Donnel was the worst because of his mods, but then again, it's super tempting for me to go for Donnel Owain for that armsthrift.

Edited September 29, 2015 by Radiant head

[Czar_Yoshi]

I thought people liked Vaike!Lissa.

People also like Fred!Gerome, but that doesn't stop it from being a bottom-of-the-barrel pair. Vaike gives Owain some of the worst mod clash in the game with only Hero to show for it.

After a long period of inactivity I returned to this game and I decided to run a lun+ (to apotheosis) save with all the worst possible pairings. I went, of course, for Chrom!Maiden (or, well, I'm going for it, I'm still at the second chapter), I am planning Vaike!Lissa, Ricken!Yarne and Virion!Nah but I don't really know what could be considered 'really bad' and I'm a bit rusty on the Awakening department.

May I ask who would you pair with the remaining ladies to 'ruin the kids' as much as possible?I

I'm so used to my usual pairings (see Chrom!Maribelle, Henry!cherce, etc) that I don't really remember so much about other couples...

Ricken gives Yarne his +Hit skill, don't do that. Since Yarne is otherwise set and will have good mods no matter what you do, it might be best to use him to pawn off a really important dad that most everyone wants.

Fred!Gerome and Stahl!Kjelle are musts, of course (Kellam!Kjelle might be worse, but he can hurt others more). Donnel!Severa will be really bad, with Peg/Merc overlap and only a +2 Spd mod. Brady is another Vaike candidate, though Kellam could work too. Definitely put Gregor on Inigo, they've got total class overlap. Henry would work out on Noire, due to DM overlap, no extra Spd and no Tomefaire. For Morgan, use +Lck/-Spd and Tiki.

[Xenomata]

...children with bad fathers is one thing...

...but what about NO kids?

Because no matter what you do, the children will always be superior to their parents in one way or another. Sure Gregor!Inigo gets no new classes, but his mods aren't taking a blow. Yeah Donnel!Owain is absolutely terrible, but his base luck goes above what is needed for 100% Armsthrift. Stahl!Kjelle doesn't get anything she needs, but suddenly she can become a viable enough Sniper. Henry!Noire can be given Axefaire, and suddenly her ability to be a War Cleric goes up.

Yeah those are all stupid ideas, but it goes to prove my point (I think): even if you do the absolute worst thing you can do to a kid, you can't make them horrid enough to be laughingstock. There is always another way.

But when you don't have ANY kids (and purposely not use Lucina), you are being forced to use these units who either:

A) have undesirable mods

B) have undesirable class sets

C) are always surpassed by their children in one form or another

D) cannot be fixed by doing something different

[Rydia]

Ricken gives Yarne his +Hit skill, don't do that. Since Yarne is otherwise set and will have good mods no matter what you do, it might be best to use him to pawn off a really important dad that most everyone wants.

Good to know. What about Libra then? Low Str stat, even if the sorcerer class offers hex and Anathema he won't get anyhing really good from him and it also has a low-ish spd and Yarne won't benefit at all from War monk, sage and Dark knight...

Fred!Gerome and Stahl!Kjelle are musts, of course (Kellam!Kjelle might be worse, but he can hurt others more). Donnel!Severa will be really bad, with Peg/Merc overlap and only a +2 Spd mod. Brady is another Vaike candidate, though Kellam could work too. Definitely put Gregor on Inigo, they've got total class overlap. Henry would work out on Noire, due to DM overlap, no extra Spd and no Tomefaire. For Morgan, use +Lck/-Spd and Tiki.

Fred!Gerome, Sthal!Kjelle and Donnel!Severa are sold and... those are all great suggestions, thank you! And I guess I will run Kellam on Maribelle because Vaike fits with Lissa (Even Gregor may work but I already have the Lissa-Greg S support from another random run for supports). Thanks for all the suggestions and- since I will run fem!avatar (+spd/-skl) I will probably give her no husband. Or eventually a partner for logcollection's sake but avoid to use him.

...children with bad fathers is one thing...

...but what about NO kids?

That would be interesting but I just returned to the game, I may save that-

But when you don't have ANY kids (and purposely not use Lucina), you are being forced to use these units who either:

A) have undesirable mods

B) have undesirable class sets

C) are always surpassed by their children in one form or another

D) cannot be fixed by doing something different

OKay, this is really tempting and may require lots of extra preparation, it will 100% be my next run (I will allow S supports but not collect the kids). There are so many first gen characters who'd drag me down in Apo that it will be super fun. Thank you for the suggestion, man!

[Radiant head]

How is Fred!Cynthia, where Chrom is off the table, but I still want a physical Cynthia? I know Fred isn't great for her speed, but does it significantly hurt her?

I would probably run something like (off the top of my head) LB, Galeforce, Luna, Aegis, and maybe Lancefaire

Edited September 29, 2015 by Radiant head

[Xenomata]

Avatar notes: Speed Asset, Luck Flaw. Final class: Swordmaster

Warning, everything under the spoiler will be a bit descriptive, aka long. I mostly paired everyone up by what they can offer to the other unit. Yeah I know I have two Paladins, Heros, Sorcerers, Sages, and Berserkers, whereas only one Bow knight, Dark Flier, and Falcon Knight are to be found, but there isn't anything wrong with the classes I selected for them, at least as far as I know.

[spoiler="Child Unit's pairings]

Out of what I have down, I have only made one pair official.

Inigo x Noire.

Stahl!Inigo: Paladin. Galeforce, Swordfaire, Astra, Luna, and Filler. Filler can be Vantage, Armsthrift, or Limit Breaker.

Gaius!Noire: Falcon Knight. Galeforce, Lancefaire, Astra, Luna, and Lifetaker. Lifetaker can be replaced with Limit Breaker.

Front Unit: Noire. Inigo's base Str cap is higher, but Noire is not limited by restrictions on movement due to the terrain, and can cross over mountains, which Paladins can't. Paladin provides boosts to Str, Skl, Spd, and Def when the back unit of a pair-up, compared to FK's larger boosts to Spd and Res, so Noire's stats wind up being higher than Inigo's in most all cases.

All other pairings following this point are in the works.

~Brady and Nah.

Lon'qu!Brady: Sage. Galeforce, Tomefaire, Astra, Luna, and Renewal. Renewal can be replaced by Limit Breaker if needed.

Avatar!Nah: Sorcerer. Galeforce, Tomefaire, Ignis, Astra, and Lifetaker. Lifetaker can be replaced with Limit Breaker, Armsthrift, or Anathema.

Front Unit: Brady. Brady's stat caps as a Sage and as the son of Lon'qu leave his Defense below 30 without Armsthrift, a problem Nah does not have. This is only to exploit Sorcerer's pair-up bonuses however. Nah in all cases is much tankier than Sage could ever be, no thanks to Nosferatu and Aversa's Night, and could even have much higher power thanks to most Dark Magic having higher base might pre-forging, and also thanks to Sage's magic boost. Nah is much tankier, and Brady is faster and more likely to hit.

~Yarne and Kjelle.

Virion!Yarne: Berserker. Axefaire, Hit Rate +20, Lifetaker, Acrobat, and Movement +1. Movement +1 can be replaced with Limit Breaker.

Donnel!Kjelle: Paladin. Galeforce, Lancefaire, Astra, Luna, and Renewal. Renewal can be replaced with Limit Breaker.

Front Unit: mixed bag. Yarne provides Kjelle the speed boost she needs from not having much to begin with, as well as a good amount of power. However, Yarne also acts similarly to Noire above, providing the ability to move freely on the map, just without the ability to go over objects or over pits, and he isn't shy of power himself, just lacking in Galeforce. Only thing he misses is an attack skill, and while I do have Lethality in his skill bank, I'd rather not try to use it.

~Owain and Cynthia

Libra!Owain: Sage. Galeforce, Tomefaire, Astra, Vengeance, and Renewal. Renewal can be replaced with Limit Breaker.

Chrom!Cynthia: Dark Flier. Galeforce, Tomefaire, Aether, Luna, and Renewal. Renewal can be replaced with Limit Breaker.

Front Unit: Owain. Generally speaking, he will be stronger than Cynthia thanks to Dark Flier pair-up bonuses, plus he can use staves. Cynthia however does have the advantage of larger field of movement and Aether/Luna procing.

~Lucina and Gerome

Sumia!Lucina: Bow Knight. Galeforce, Aether, Luna, Dual Strike+, and Bowfaire. Dual Strike+ can be replaced with Limit Breaker.

Henry!Gerome: Berserker. Axefaire, Anathema, Lifetaker, Dual Support+, and Strength +2. Dual Support+ can be replaced with Limit Breaker, Strength +2 can be replaced with All Stat +2.

Front Unit: Lucina. Gerome I feel can't run his only attack skill properly without any other skills to back it up, and Lucina simply looks better overall after Berserker pair-up bonuses are applied, if the fact that Galeforce and Aether/Luna procing is a thing doesn't make it impressive enough.

~Laurent and Morgan.

Gregor!Laurent: Sorcerer. Tomefaire, Magic +2, Anathema, Astra, and Sol. Magic +2 can be replaced with All Stat +2. Magic/All Stat +2 and Sol can be replaced with Vantage and Vengeance. Magic/All Stat +2/Vantage can be replaced with Limit Breaker. any skill can be replaced with Armsthrift.

Nowi!Morgan: Hero. Galeforce, Sword/Axefaire, Ignis, Astra, and Lifetaker. Lifetaker can be replaced with Limit Breaker or Armsthrift.

Front Unit: Morgan. Laurent's lack of Galeforce hurts him, but beyond that, Morgan receives a boost to being a wall, a boost to her magic for powering up Ignis, and is generally capable of holding her own once she gets a boost to her defensive ability. In hindsight Nah would probably be better here, but Brady needed her more.

Leftover unit: Severa.

Explaination: Severa's caps as an Axefaire Hero are, simply put, better than Morgan in everything but Defense (by 3 points) and Resistance. As such, I feel that she can work just fine without a husband, especially since most of the others needed certain aspects to come from their spouse, whereas Severa shouldn't be suffering too badly. I mean, Berserker Vaike or Falcon Knight Cordelia should be more than capable pair up partners, right? Even the Avatar could work just fine... maybe...

How is Fred!Cynthia, where Chrom is off the table, but I still want a physical Cynthia? I know Fred isn't great for her speed, but does it significantly hurt her?

I would probably run something like (off the top of my head) LB, Galeforce, Luna, Aegis, and maybe Lancefaire

She gets absolutely nothing new in terms of classes. Chrom already gives Cynthia Cavalier, and Wyvern Rider is very unappealing in terms of classes and skills...

Her Strength and Speed leave her on-par with Donnel!Kjelle, but with a superior Skl modifier. But that isn't really an issue.

The thing she misses most, in my opinion, is Aether. Her only attack skill before inheritance is Luna, so she really needs something to proc it with. Gaius, probably the second worst Cynthia you can make, at least gives her Astra, and Henry, the best option if Chrom is taken, gives Vengeance. Frederick giving absolutely nothing is kinda painful to both Cynthia and the player.

...in my opinion.

[Radiant head]

I was more worried about the mods than any of that. I figured Fred is the worst in the sense that his and Sumia's mods clash too much, especially hurting spd, but I honestly don't think Cynthia desperately needs stuff that isn't provided from Sumia.

The lack of Aether sucks, but I want to do a play through without Chom x Sumia because I've already done it twice in a row.

Edited September 29, 2015 by Radiant head

[Xenomata]

I was more worried about the spd mod than any of that. I don't think Cynthia "needs" much from a father, and Aether always felt like icing on the cake.

If it's Speed your worried about, Gaius is always an option. Problem is, he kinda sorta gives Kjelle/Noire the Pegasus Knight class.

Another option is Speed Asset Avatar, but that sacrifices the ability to have a Str or Mag asset.

Honestly, there isn't any risk to going for Chrom/Sumia. They have so few potential marriage options anyways, and letting them affect Lucina and Cynthia leaves all the other children alone to get what they need from other fathers. Besides, it's not like because Sumia!Cynthia has a whole one point more in Magic over Strength means she has to be a magic oriented class. Her Strength is completely neutral in fact, so you can always leave her in Sniper, Paladin, Falcon Knight, without her doing any worse than enemy versions of each class.

[Czar_Yoshi]

...children with bad fathers is one thing...

...but what about NO kids?

Then you still have Sumia and Cordelia. Those two, paired with Chrom and Robin and with a few staffbots and Olivia to provide support, can still take Apo no sweat.

Good to know. What about Libra then? Low Str stat, even if the sorcerer class offers hex and Anathema he won't get anyhing really good from him and it also has a low-ish spd and Yarne won't benefit at all from War monk, sage and Dark knight...

There's that +Hit again. Top-tier Yarne is still top tier.

How is Fred!Cynthia, where Chrom is off the table, but I still want a physical Cynthia? I know Fred isn't great for her speed, but does it significantly hurt her?

She's slow, but not moreso than Donnel!Kjelle. The sacrifice doesn't do wonders for her Str, either (she's stuck with just +1). Class-wise, she can scrape together 75 Spd as a Falco with no All+2 and a Paladin support, or can settle for 69 with Wyvern Lord and the same set. Paladin with All+2 will hit 69 as well with a +0 support, if Cynthia needs to take one of those.

The thing she misses most, in my opinion, is Aether. Her only attack skill before inheritance is Luna, so she really needs something to proc it with. Gaius, probably the second worst Cynthia you can make, at least gives her Astra, and Henry, the best option if Chrom is taken, gives Vengeance. Frederick giving absolutely nothing is kinda painful to both Cynthia and the player.

Gaius!Cynthia would be really good if not for Kjelle wanting him more. She has a +6 Spd mod, making her the only non-Morgan unit in the game to have both GF, TF and enough Spd to reach 75 as a DF with All+2 and a +0 support.

Unfortunately she's brought back to earth by her 5-skillslot syndrome, because to properly take advantage of that she needs to run her Luna/Astra procstack, and ends up wanting LB/GF/TF/Luna/Astra/All+2, which doesn't fit. Can't take off All+2, it's the whole point of the set. Can't take off Astra, since it gives much more average damage than TF- but if you take off TF, then she ceases to be special: suddenly any old +6 Spd DF will do. But Lon'qu!Severa is the main one that comes to mind, and since she uses Vengeance instead of Luna/Astra, she's suddenly got room for TF and nothing to put there.

This is actually one of the places where you might consider dropping GF, if having all that at once is that noteworthy. Though then you run into Lon'qu!Noire, who does the same thing (Wyvern Lord with LB/All+2/Luna/Astra/Lancefaire). Sigh.

Sumia!Lucina: Bow Knight. Galeforce, Aether, Luna, Dual Strike+, and Bowfaire. Dual Strike+ can be replaced with Limit Breaker.

DSt+ is one of the best skills in the game, far better than LB. Never remove it unless you're doing a challenge that specifically bars DSes, replace BF instead.

[ShadowGuy1]

How does Cherche relate on the good waifu character for Morgan and Gerome. I used Skil minus Luck most of the time. I wanna see how well it makes Gerome and Morgan.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Gerome will fare the best of the three, as he gets his Berserker and Hit+20 too. His Str/Skl mods, at +5/4, are more or less Yarne tier too, so he's happy.

On Morgan's end, Cherche doesn't give any special skills so it's all about mods. While the +5/4 Str/Skl are nice for her as well, unlike Gerome she cares about Spd and will fare poorly with that +0.

Cherche herself isn't cut out to lead Robin in Apo- she's got no proc, no GF, no Faire and negative Spd. She'll be OK in non-Apo postgame once you have her decked out with LB and the like, but everyone is at least OK there.

Regarding ingame performance, Cherche has fairly good bases and can be worth the investment on Hard or vanilla Lunatic, but has trouble on Lunatic+. She comes late, though, so Moran and Gerome likely won't arrive on time to do anything useful.

[Radiant head]

So is Stahl basically the only option if you wanted to keep Owain in the Myrmidon line?

[Admiral "Bull" Halsey]

Well stalh doesnt have any backbones and his mods are okay...and he gives owain luna.

[Zoran]

No-Rally/No-DLC Apotheosis run update: I won! On my first try, even.

The turn limit got a little tight on the last stage, but Lucina was an absolute champion, killing all four Sorcerer mooks and all four Sniper mooks. My Sniper swarm failed to beat Anna in one turn, but they regrouped for the next turn just fine. Morgan took care of the Invincisorcs, and Cynthia did work against the Nightmare Sniper.

Edited September 30, 2015 by Zoran

[Czar_Yoshi]

So is Stahl basically the only option if you wanted to keep Owain in the Myrmidon line?

Typically you wouldn't want to keep Owain in the Myrmidon line, since SMs are really bad and Assassins are redundant with the metagame (they easily give you the thresholds normally obtained through careful pairs and calculations, but don't have any of the perks other classes can bring to the table such as high Mov/Str).

Stahl probably still is the best father for the job, though. But keep in mind his real strength as a father for Owain is in end class diversity; if you absolutely know you'll be sticking to SM/Assassin then Fred could be superior (he offers +1 Skl, but shouldn't change Owain's Spd thresholds and has a lot more availability).

[Radiant head]

Was just wondering hypothetically.

If I want to specifically run Owain as a Dark Knight, is Ricken still the ideal father?

[Czar_Yoshi]

Probably. Him or Libra.

[Xenomata]

The difference between Ricken!Owain and Libra!Owain is largely in skills offered to Owain.

Ricken gives Luna, which proc combos nicely with Astra.

Libra gives Vengeance, which while it isn't quite as nice as Luna, it's still a good skill, especially since Owain can switch from Astra/Vengeance to Vantage/Vengeance at any point (especially since he, naturally, has the Vantage skill from the get-go)

Otherwise, their class sets don't have much impact on Owain due to him already having the class he needs to end in and the appropriate faire (Sage and Tomefaire).

Both give Owain the Dark Knight class, but I feel he fares better elsewhere since he can't really mix attack, and his skill/speed aren't quite as good as Sage. Does offer Lifetaker though, and Dark Knight isn't a bad class otherwise.

Libra gives Dark Mage/Sorcerer, which can be an alternative to Sage, especially if running V/V, but Owain does sacrifice some speed and skill he can't get back without Rally skills and a skill-based pair-up such as Sage or Bow Knight. Then again, getting up to 50 to give Vengeance 100% activation isn't that hard to begin with...

Everything else the two fathers give are either redundant or things Owain already had. Ricken's Archer classline is largely wasted on Owain, the Cavalier classline only offers Luna and nothing else, and Libra doesn't even give much to begin with. Their mods are similar enough that you won't see that big a difference between the two Owains in classes they share. Finally, Owain already has most of what he needs from his natural classes and Lissa (Galeforce, Weaponfaire skill, Astra, health recovery skill, a good class to end in), and the two fathers are just the last ingredients that people change all the time (Luna or Vengeance)

The only real way to determine which is better is to determine if you want to use Ricken elsewhere, because Libra doesn't give much of anything to other children anyways, whereas Ricken does. Arguably, Ricken is the better father, but Libra has no opportunity cost to throwing him on Owain, and the two are quite similar anyways.

I use Libra!Owain personally because when thinking about it, I decided that screw it, whats the difference, Libra has blonde hair. I also already have a lot of Luna/Astra children, which isn't bad mind you, but my personal preferences demand at least a little variety, even if the most common thing was pretty much the best thing anyways.

[Zoran]

Astra should never be run alongside Vengeance. The appeal of Vengeance is that (in most endgame settings) it has 100% activation rate, so its damage is completely predictable. Combining it with Astra means that sometimes you might end up getting more or less damage than you were anticipating.

[Admiral "Bull" Halsey]

TBH, I find Astra to be unreliable on special occasions (expecially for Enemy/Counter & in Apotheosis...)

Edited October 1, 2015 by Formerly Colm

[Xenomata]

Astra should never be run alongside Vengeance. The appeal of Vengeance is that (in most endgame settings) it has 100% activation rate, so its damage is completely predictable. Combining it with Astra means that sometimes you might end up getting more or less damage than you were anticipating.

Yeah, there's also the factor that if you are doing Vengeance's highest points of added on damage, it mean that the unit in question is going to be at high risk of death, and being forced to go after the enemy without Vantage means you are leaving things in the hands of RNG, at least if there's a chance for you to avoid an attack. Otherwise, your down a unit.

...basically, the slot that Astra is using would be better spent on Vantage.

The only way it would work otherwise is if the 2.5x damage done by Astra were able to outdamage Vengeance or even do equal damage no matter how much damage Vengeance is adding on, which might be possible if the weapon being used was super powerful, which most Brave weapons aren't. At the very least, Astra can be used for early in the map or after the unit is healed (because Fortify won't leave them alone)

Edited October 1, 2015 by Xenomata

[Rizziah]

I saw we were talking about worst pairings, and that's always something that's interested me. From a pure skills stand point (so not taking modifiers into effect), here's a draft I made for the most scrub squad of kids I could see, and was wondering if it could be "improved".

Chrom x Maiden

Lissa x Lon'qu (I guess if you want him to be a really good Taxi it's okay)

Sully x Frederick (No new classes)

Miriel x Libra (Priest and War Cleric, and that's it)

Sumia x Gauis (Everyone else is taken)

Maribelle x Ricken (It would be Chrom, but he's off destabilizing the royal genes with the local village girls)

Panne x Vaike (Yay, not activating Sol)

Cordelia x Donnel (No new classes)

Nowi x Virion (It's pretty much the same as Maribelle x Ricken)

Tharja x Henry (Troub is a nice class, but not enough here)

Olivia x Gregor (No new classes)

Cherche x Kellam (The only ones left are Stahl and Kellam, pretty easy decision. Plus Donny can't be in two places at once).

Edited October 1, 2015 by GoldenMapleLeaf

[Czar_Yoshi]

Yeah, there's also the factor that if you are doing Vengeance's highest points of added on damage, it mean that the unit in question is going to be at high risk of death, and being forced to go after the enemy without Vantage means you are leaving things in the hands of RNG, at least if there's a chance for you to avoid an attack. Otherwise, your down a unit.

...basically, the slot that Astra is using would be better spent on Vantage.

You've got it backwards. Not running Vantage isn't going to leave you in the hands of the RNG- your own moves are. If you leave a unit somewhere where they have a chance to be killed by the RNG, it was preventable.

Vantage itself does nothing except change the move order in battle. Thus, running Vantage will give you no difference in the outcome of the battle unless you kill the foe before they can attack you. Without either 100% DS or very careful planning, this will likely be a random event. Thus, using Vantage without proper care will either do nothing, or give you a chance to be killed (and in the event it does nothing- aka both you and the foe survive battle- it will have caused you to attack before taking additional damage, which lowers your Vengeance output and makes you weaker).

Vantage is not a filler skill. It's not something you tack on "just because", and it's not something you should use just because AC and some other people blew the community's mind with it a long time back when everyone was bad at the game. It's something you should only use after you have a good answer to the question "what situation am I bringing Vantage for in which it will perform better than a standard GF/Faire/Proc(stack) set?"

If you desire Vengeance to be even stronger (aka safely attacking at HP too low to survive a hit) for all four hits, then let the enemy move first on EP, have their hit knock you down to 1 HP, and then go ham (if they miss/get DGed, that's fine then because you're still not dead). Otherwise, attack on player phase: unless they have Vantage+, you still get 6 hits before they get to attack, same as if you were using Vantage.

As for the slot Astra is using, it would be better spent on Agg. While the average damage increase from a single proc to a procstack can be comparable to Agg, procs don't occur in the back which is where Owain will be spending at least half of his time (2/3rds, if he's not married to Nah). Challenge runs notwithstanding, Owain should always be running LB/GF/Agg/Faire/proc.

Maribelle x Ricken (It would be Chrom, but he's off destabilizing the royal genes with the local village girls)

Cordelia x Donnel (No new classes)

Brady has a full skillset from Maribelle, though, and only cares about mods. Ricken delivers (for Mag, at least) and is one of Brady's better fathers.

Donnel gives Severa Troubadour, Valkyrie and War Cleric.

Edited October 1, 2015 by Czar_Yoshi

[Rizziah]

Right, but that's why I specified in terms of skills. Didn't mean to imply they were the worst overall.

Forgot about that second thing though.