PAIRINGS The Pairing Thread

[Radiant head]

Oh right, but then I have to choose between Axefaire and DG+.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Lucina shouldn't be running a Faire, she's already got LB/GF/DSt+/Aether/Luna. Even if she had SF, though, her primary Sword classes- Paladin, GL and BK- all have another weapon type she already gets a Faire for, so she wouldn't even use it much if she had room for it.

Stahl can give Gerome DG+, but it's not a very good skill- he'd much rather have an extra +Hit skill.

[Ebony]

Actually, who should I pair up with Noire then? Should I use Donnel on -anybody-?

[Rizziah]

Donnel on a case by case basis -

Kjelle/Noire/Nah: Well covered. Kjelle's most optimal choice, but the others have their merits, mostly Noire.

Severa: Only gets Troub. Shit.

Owain: Physical dad on a magical child with classes he doesn't want. Bad.

Laurent: See above. Bad.

Brady: Brady wants good mods. Donnel's mods are bad. Shit.

Yarne: Hero and Bowknight are good classes that go to waste. No skills he wants or needs. Shit.

Gerome: See above, but take out Hero. Shit.

Inigo: See above, but Inigo already has all of Donnel's possible classes. Shitty shit shit.

The gap between the Galeless girls and everybody is huge, as you can see.

[Lucina's Husband]

Who make the best husbands for Female My Unit and with which Asset/Flaw? I'm planning to marry this Morgan to Lucina, who'll probably be Sumia's daughter, though I've seen the case for Chrom! Inigo! Morgan.

[Ebony]

Kjelle/Noire/Nah: Well covered. Kjelle's most optimal choice, but the others have their merits, mostly Noire.

Yeah I was gonna say, Noire looks interesting. Plus... really... really precious with that purple hair... and if I do that, it'll be Donnel x Tharja and Gaius x Kjelle.

[Bunselpower]

Alright czar, how would you pair Vaike and Donnel with Noire and Nowi? I.e., does Nah's jump justify using Vaike there, and how much does that hurt Noire? I guess Donny would give a DF, which means both could be a hard support for Brady, but I'm assuming that Noire would do it infinitely better? Or maybe Brady wants to get matched up with a GaleGirl like Cynthia? I do hate to waste the great potential for a Double Bow Sniper though, I like that weapon and class.

Also, Ebony, just saw you're from Missouri. That's awesome, I am too. Go Cards (...or maybe Royals...?).

[Lucina's Husband]

Alright czar, how would you pair Vaike and Donnel with Noire and Nowi? I.e., does Nah's jump justify using Vaike there, and how much does that hurt Noire? I guess Donny would give a DF, which means both could be a hard support for Brady, but I'm assuming that Noire would do it infinitely better? Or maybe Brady wants to get matched up with a GaleGirl like Cynthia? I do hate to waste the great potential for a Double Bow Sniper though, I like that weapon and class.

Also, Ebony, just saw you're from Missouri. That's awesome, I am too. Go Cards (...or maybe Royals...?).

Ooohh, I've been talking over such pairings with czar. As a Hero, Vaike! Nowi can actually give Virion! Brady the speed jump he wants to reach that magic 75. She also gives a boost to skill which is always nice. Her own speed is so low, I still think she'd be kind of a waste of a Galeforce unit. Donnel! Noire can run Valkyrie reasonably well and compensate for her low Skill with Vengeance as her proc.

Vaike! Noire is totally viable as well, but I think these two pairings will let you hit the stats you need.

The list I've been tinkering around with is quite similar to yours.

Robin x Lucina

Chrom x Sumia

Libra x Lissa

Gaius x Tharja

Donnel x Sully

Lon'qu x Cordelia

Henry x Cherche

Virion x Maribelle

Frederick x Olivia

Panne x Stahl

Miriel x Ricken

Vaike x Nowi

Robin @Grandmaster X Sumia! Lucina @Dark Flier

Libra! Owain @ Sage x Sumia! Lucina! Morgan @ Valkyrie

Lon'qu! Severa @Wyvern Lord x Henry! Gerome @Berserker

Chrom! Cynthia @Sniper x Stahl! Yarne @Berserker

Virion! Brady @Sage x Vaike! Nah @Hero

Donnel! Kjelle @Wyvern Lord x Frederick! Inigo @Paladin

Gaius! Noire @ Dark Knight or Sniper x Ricken! Laurent @Sage

[Byleth]

benching Gregor is not a good idea just saying...

[Radiant head]

Yeah, might as well swap Ricken for him.

Lucina shouldn't be running a Faire, she's already got LB/GF/DSt+/Aether/Luna. Even if she had SF, though, her primary Sword classes- Paladin, GL and BK- all have another weapon type she already gets a Faire for, so she wouldn't even use it much if she had room for it.

Yeah I was talking about aesthetics. Otherwise I would have actually done it instead of just calling it tempting.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Radiant head

[Czar_Yoshi]

Regarding Donnel:

You shouldn't consider using him on anyone but a girl who can inherit GF from him, he just doesn't work. You might have a little luck with him fathering Owain ingame, but never postgame.

Of the three that can feasibly use him, Kjelle fares the best, though since she's the best to begin with that's not saying much. Donnel!Kjelle tends to just do the same things as Gaius!Kjelle, though down one speed bracket. Kjelle has absolutely nothing to gain from dropping GF, so she should always use one of Gaius or Donnel.

Noire also gets bumped down a speed bracket, though she tends to play differently: Gaius!Noire is usually a 69 Spd DK or 75 Spd BK, Donnel!Noire is a 69 Spd Sniper. She'll mostly be a slower, weaker Vaike!Noire with GF to compensate. Since her mods with Donnel are pretty uninspiring and she has a lot of versatility to gain from using a non-GF dad, but is still capable of running a full set with him, Donnel!Noire is roughly on par with the other good non-GF Noires: Vaike, Lon'qu, Ricken and sometimes Fred.

Nah can't really be good with either Gaius or Donnel, and only a small handful of fathers (Vaike and Henry) can make her noteworthy without GF, so use one of those if possible. And if not, a bad Nah with GF beats a bad Nah without GF, so she probably should take Donnel if he'd be hitting the bench otherwise and all her other options are poor (wherever Vaike and Henry are tied up, Donnel won't be trading himself for them any time soon).

benching Gregor is not a good idea just saying...

Though he does make a good Laurent, the number of children he's good on is actually fairly small, and it's easy for him to wind up with nobody who wants him.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Czar_Yoshi

[PM ME MARIANNE ART]

donnel is pretty awful on everyone except Kjelle and is okay on Noire

Gregor is okay for most people but stellar on Laurent

[CoolCoolCool]

Quick question. Libra!Yarne (-2 str but anathema) or Fred!Yarne (swordbreaker)?

[Shadow Mir]

Quick question. Libra!Yarne (-2 str but anathema) or Fred!Yarne (swordbreaker)?

Er, are there any other options?

[Rizziah]

Quick question. Libra!Yarne (-2 str but anathema) or Fred!Yarne (swordbreaker)?

Might wanna check the modifiers again. Libra!Yarne has a +3 STR mod. Also swordbreaker (and other breaker) skills are made redundant by Hawkeye and the fact Yarne is going to be all the way in the back.

Libra!Yarne all the way. Hexathema barbarian is pretty good, and this is the pairing I do myself.

[Byleth]

so for more optimize team, which one is better?

Gaius!Kjelle & Donnel!Noire

OR

Donnel!Kjelle & Gaius!Noire ??

Also quick question about proc stacking skills, if I have a unit who has 50+ Skl and has access to Vengeance and Astra, can I procstacking them? or Vengeance will always active due to Skl% x 2 activation rate?

and is Sage/Sniper pair up good?

[Bunselpower]

Once again czar, a perfectly articulate response. Vaike will stay with nowi and donnel will father noire since noire will likely be supporting. That seems to even out the pairs better.

FE Newbie, based on what he was saying, and what he's said in the past, gaius kjelle is the cream of the crop when it comes to kjelle. The benefits to kjelle seem to outweigh the detriment to noire.

And unless I'm mistaken, you will still activate Astra a fourth of the time, just on the times it doesn't activate, you'll get vengeance. And as far as I know, Astra is used to stabilize damage on guys that have non guaranteed procs, like luna, and vengeance is so good because it gives you the guarantee so using Astra is kind of a waste because you're already planning for vengeance because you know exactly what you'll get.

And I'm not sure on the pair up, but looking at the pair bonuses, I'm gonna say no.

[CoolCoolCool]

Might wanna check the modifiers again. Libra!Yarne has a +3 STR mod. Also swordbreaker (and other breaker) skills are made redundant by Hawkeye and the fact Yarne is going to be all the way in the back.

Libra!Yarne all the way. Hexathema barbarian is pretty good, and this is the pairing I do myself.

Meant -2 str compared to Fred, sorry I wasn't clear. I thought breaker skills were still good on supports, just not as good as reliable accuracy increasing moves (e.g. anathema). Think I will go Libra!Yarne though, thanks.

Only other option is Kellam unless I shift stuff around.

[CrazyFiasco]

Would this be a good skillset on Gaius!Noire? Her ending class is going to be Assassin.

Galeforce

Luna

Swordfaire

Bowfaire

Vengeance

Any changes that need to be made?

[Lucina's Husband]

Who make the best husbands for Female My Unit and with which Asset/Flaw? I'm planning to marry this Morgan to Lucina, who'll probably be Sumia's daughter, though I've seen the case for Chrom! Inigo! Morgan.

???

Also, CrazyFiasco, two faires is kind of redundant even on a dual-attacking class like Assassin. And Luna + Vengeance is also redundant since only one will proc at a time. With your high skill stat and Kjelle's access to a variety of procs, I'd recommend Galeforce/Luna/Astra/Bowfaire/Limit Breaker. If you don't want/can't buy the DLC, then I guess a filler like Swordfaire, Pass (works well with a bow user), Strength +2, or even Counter (also works well with a bow user).

[Zoran]

Noire also gets bumped down a speed bracket, though she tends to play differently: Gaius!Noire is usually a 69 Spd DK or 75 Spd BK, Donnel!Noire is a 69 Spd Sniper. She'll mostly be a slower, weaker Vaike!Noire with GF to compensate. Since her mods with Donnel are pretty uninspiring and she has a lot of versatility to gain from using a non-GF dad, but is still capable of running a full set with him, Donnel!Noire is roughly on par with the other good non-GF Noires: Vaike, Lon'qu, Ricken and sometimes Fred.

I remain convinced that Gaius!Noire is best as a Sniper with LB/GF/Astra/Luna/All+2. Sure, she's eclipsed in that role by Chrom!Cynthia and Sumia!Lucina because of Aether and their 1 extra Speed, but it's still by far the most potent thing she has going for her. Procstack Snipers are rare and valuable units, and it never hurts to have more of them. Plus Cynthia and Lucina are great in other classes besides Sniper, so they may not be filling that role in your team.

So pick Gaius!Noire if you want a fast Sniper, and pick Gaius!Kjelle if you want a fast Wyvern Lord (LB/GF/Astra/Luna/All+2). The current fad at SF is to emphasize 75 Speed to an extreme degree, but that only actually matters against two enemies in the whole game. I prefer Gaius!Noire because doubling Anna at range 3 is very useful, whereas doubling her at range 1 usually is not. Nightmare Sniper is easy to kill regardless.

If you're willing to accept not doubling Anna & NS, then Donnel!Kjelle does everything that Gaius!Kjelle does and gets Hero access to boot. For Noire, on the other hand, Donnel is a lot worse.

[PM ME MARIANNE ART]

so for more optimize team, which one is better?

Gaius!Kjelle & Donnel!Noire

OR

Donnel!Kjelle & Gaius!Noire ??

Also quick question about proc stacking skills, if I have a unit who has 50+ Skl and has access to Vengeance and Astra, can I procstacking them? or Vengeance will always active due to Skl% x 2 activation rate?

and is Sage/Sniper pair up good?

Before I get to the big stuff, sniper x sage is very good, not as good as sniper x berserker, but still damn good.

Now that question seems to be the popular debate in this thread and some people take either side. It's not really a question of Gaius!Kjelle and Donnel!Noire or Donnel!Kjelle and Gaius!Noire, but the real question that should be asked is: which one gets Gaius? Gaius is just so much better than Donnel in every way that the question is who gets to have him as their dad.

Czar and many others go with Gaius!Kjelle because 75 speed wyvern lord, and I definitely see where they're coming from and I understand as an incredibly viable option, but I disagree. There are two enemies that you need 75 speed to double, and that's nightmare sniper and Anna. The thing is, I feel like it's way more efficient to just smack those two with longbow/double bow snipers with 75 speed (such as Lucina/Cynthia). Doubling them at one range doesn't seem as good as weakening them greatly or even killing them at 3, then picking them off if necessary.

The difference between Gaius!kjelle and Donnel!Kjelle is all in the speed, but if you take my previous point into account, her speed isn't really going to matter. the difference between Gaius!Noire and Donnel!Noire is much more significant. As in, one is basically top tier and the other is meh. Gaius!Noire makes her an incredibly useful unit, and Donnel!Kjelle does the same things as Gaius!kjelle, except is a bit slower.

I remain convinced that Gaius!Noire is best as a Sniper with LB/GF/Astra/Luna/All+2. Sure, she's eclipsed in that role by Chrom!Cynthia and Sumia!Lucina because of Aether and their 1 extra Speed, but it's still by far the most potent thing she has going for her. Procstack Snipers are rare and valuable units, and it never hurts to have more of them. Plus Cynthia and Lucina are great in other classes besides Sniper, so they may not be filling that role in your team.

So pick Gaius!Noire if you want a fast Sniper, and pick Gaius!Kjelle if you want a fast Wyvern Lord (LB/GF/Astra/Luna/All+2). The current fad at SF is to emphasize 75 Speed to an extreme degree, but that only actually matters against two enemies in the whole game. I prefer Gaius!Noire because doubling Anna at range 3 is very useful, whereas doubling her at range 1 usually is not. Nightmare Sniper is easy to kill regardless.

If you're willing to accept not doubling Anna & NS, then Donnel!Kjelle does everything that Gaius!Kjelle does and gets Hero access to boot. For Noire, on the other hand, Donnel is a lot worse.

This actually sums up my thoughts pretty well, except my preferred build for Noire is Dark Knight with GF/Luna/Astra/Swordfaire. DK gives her an extremely valuable role in No brave runs in that she can efficiently attack the thronie/helswath berserkers from a range without fear of counter or aegis+.

I miss Alastor, he's the one who taught me all this

[Vascela]

and is Sage/Sniper pair up good?

Hell yes it is. My first "notable" run was fueled by how strong (and at the time, pretty low key) Sage/Sniper is. Three range magical dual strike alone make it top-of-the-line. I do think it's better than Sniper/Zerker, but that's my bias due to FeMU x Chrom being a stomp comp.

Snipers in general eliminate any potential problem revolving "I can't do X" and answers it with "did you try using a Sniper?" And now you throw Sage in the mix: absolutely phenomenal.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Also quick question about proc stacking skills, if I have a unit who has 50+ Skl and has access to Vengeance and Astra, can I procstacking them? or Vengeance will always active due to Skl% x 2 activation rate?

You can do that (you'll have 25% Astra and 75% Vengeance), but it's not a good idea because half of the point of procstacks is to decrease the chance of procing nothing (it'll be 0 whether you use Vengeance or something/Vengeance), and the whole point of Vengeance is that its damage output is 100% predictable, and adding randomness to that ruins it.

I remain convinced that Gaius!Noire is best as a Sniper with LB/GF/Astra/Luna/All+2. Sure, she's eclipsed in that role by Chrom!Cynthia and Sumia!Lucina because of Aether

Aether and Astra have pretty similar damage outputs (I did the math a few pages back, tl;dr Aether is better when your Atk is less than twice the foe's Def, Astra is better when it's more than that), actually. Of course, Aether gives a tiny bit of healing that's hard to quantify, but Atk-wise they're about the same.

I miss Alastor, he's the one who taught me all this

He's been in and out a lot before, I'm sure he'll be back eventually.

Czar and many others go with Gaius!Kjelle because 75 speed wyvern lord, and I definitely see where they're coming from and I understand as an incredibly viable option

Since not everyone probably does, though (or maybe never thought about it), I might as well reiterate why I place emphases where I do.

Apo is a pretty easy map. It has quite a reputation left over from the olden times where it stomped many Nostanks, but at the end of the day the only thing required to "trivialize" it is Player Phase Offense- a focus on attacking instead of defending. Once you're playing that way, everything else- Procs, GF, 8 Mov, Rescue, Pairup/DSes (to an extent), any Spd above 60, LB/Rallies, even having the enemy data and anything else is just icing on the cake that makes that process of killing stuff on your terms smoother, more likely to work and easier to make up for mistakes. It's almost like, beyond the initial mindset change from what Normal through Lunatic drum into you, that there's no point to optimization.

I do it anyway, and I assume the same is true for most of you, because I find it fun (funner than actually playing the game, even). But to optimize, you have to play by a set of rules, which is the meta. Since the usual purpose of a meta is to provide guidelines for a) beating the game, and b) doing so safely/efficiently/whatever, and what Apo requires for that is fairly minimal, I prefer to write my own rules instead of playing by the game. It's very unnecessary, but so is playing the game in the first place- I do it for fun.

This tends to work out pretty well for the sake of giving advice, because my rules don't let you get away with anything remotely close to what wouldn't work ingame. An additional benefit is that planning your team by a visible set of guidelines (and the ability to have it appraised while still on paper, which isn't usefully possible under the game's rules) can be a bit of a confidence booster for people who may have heard of the fearsome, unconquerable Secret Apotheosis (the map's reputation is the other big thing that must be overcome, according to the game's rules).

That said, why do my rules focus on what they do (Spd thresholds)? The biggest factor is that you can very cleanly define how much does what. It's hard to do this with Atk, since enemies have different HP caps, varying Weapon Triangle positions, and the player has to contend with varying DS/Hit rates, different levels of Atk on leads and supports, damage variance for procs, and especially multipliers (from Braves hitting multiple times). It's not pretty- I've done win% calcs for several challenge run setups in the past, and they're not something I want to do in my head. Spd is something that's fairly easy to calculate (including its effects) on the fly, but still has enough sources of variance to be strategically interesting, as well as having its noticeable thresholds at just the right place where one has to deliberately try to reach them, but they don't require (major) sacrifices to reach. Things like 160 Skl and 30 Def tend to be a bit too extreme to be useful on a unit-by-unit basis.

Yes, I pick and choose which part of the game I place unnecessary emphasis on based on which one is the most fun, and then encourage others to do so as well. Technically, that makes me a fraud (though the same goes for most of you), but I doubt many of the people this thread has helped care. Neither do I, as it's fun.

I prefer Gaius!Kjelle because in the context of my rules, she can do everything I could expect of any of my best units (she hits the highest Spd threshold without sacrificing Mov, Atk or choice in supports), and in multiple ways- she's missing nothing. Playing by the game's rules, Gaius!Kjelle, Donnel!Kjelle, Vaike!Kjelle and all manner of Kjelles are going to perform more or less just as good as any other Kjelle, and that performance will depend on whether she is used by the player to attack stuff, or to be attacked by stuff. Though I would like it if Kjelle had a broader scope of what she can do within my rules, I'll take a more limited Kjelle with meaning over an unfettered Kjelle without it any day of the week.

These debates- particularly centering around Kjelle and Noire, but being about anything, really- tend to occur because different people (who have put a good deal of thought into the game) play by slightly different rules. Personally, I wouldn't have it any other way, because otherwise we'd eventually settle on an "optimal" team, and that wouldn't be fun (though I've often considered making my version of the rules a little more substantial).

[Ebony]

I'm simply playing Lunatic/Lunatic+. Unfortunately where I live, I don't have any wifi, so this locks me out of any and all DLC. :T