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2 minutes ago, Zoran said:

For what it's worth, Lucina!Morgan starting in Tactician has the distinct advantage of coming with Veteran.

That's a good point.

But I'd rather have my Galeforce sooner.

Thanks for the help though, I appriciate it.

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1 hour ago, Lampy said:

Hmmm... That sounds tempting, to say the least. But then, other units can take advantage of it as well... So I think I'll just let Laurent have Lucina (I actually paired them up together in my last file, not knowing that. But that wasn't a good run since Lonq'u and Vaike were bench dads alongside Fred) and marry Robin to Cynthia instead, partially to make my life easier since I won't have to second seal Morgan to get Galeforce (That's just me being lazy). That, and I don't really like the Robin x Lucina pairing aesthetically. Dunno why but I never did.

I'll go +Mag -Def because the mods Morgan gets are more appealing to me.

And you'd have to reclass to get tactician which is in my opinion more of a work around because you're likely going to want to have Robin hand down something else instead of Veteran.  You'd be losing out in the long run, even to get Galeforce.  You'd be wasting a second seal, especially since Cynthia will likely have other skills on the bottom other than Aether when you're getting Morgan, if you wanted Morgan with Aether.  Lucina is like Chrom she hands it down by default.

8 minutes ago, Zoran said:

For what it's worth, Lucina!Morgan starting in Tactician has the distinct advantage of coming with Veteran.

That's pretty much why I have M!Robin marry Lucina.  Veteran saves me having to waste time grinding like to get galeforce then getting veteran. 

5 minutes ago, Lampy said:

That's a good point.

But I'd rather have my Galeforce sooner.

Thanks for the help though, I appriciate it.

Far better to have veteran than Galeforce.  Veteran makes getting Galeforce easier than just getting Galeforce.

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13 minutes ago, TheSilentChloey said:

And you'd have to reclass to get tactician which is in my opinion more of a work around because you're likely going to want to have Robin hand down something else instead of Veteran.  You'd be losing out in the long run, even to get Galeforce.  You'd be wasting a second seal, especially since Cynthia will likely have other skills on the bottom other than Aether when you're getting Morgan, if you wanted Morgan with Aether.  Lucina is like Chrom she hands it down by default.

Far better to have veteran than Galeforce.  Veteran makes getting Galeforce easier than just getting Galeforce.

Preeeetty sure any of Chrom's kids pass down Aether/RK regardless of their bottom skill on the list.

And if I'm wrong... I can just move it to the bottom. It's not that hard.

As for Veteran, I have access to Paragon Scrolls, which are easy to get, so I don't need Veteran.

Edited by Lampy
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2 hours ago, Lampy said:

Preeeetty sure any of Chrom's kids pass down Aether/RK regardless of their bottom skill on the list.

And if I'm wrong... I can just move it to the bottom. It's not that hard.

As for Veteran, I have access to Paragon Scrolls, which are easy to get, so I don't need Veteran.

Which requires DLC.  I seriously wouldn't waste something like that on Morgan when she can get veteran from the start and be that much easier to level up without having to waste a second seal for it.  If I recall correctly, Lucina is the only one that regardless of what skills she has she'll always hand down Aether.  Chrom's other children do not hand down RK or Aether (unless it is in the last slot).  

As far as Morgan is concerned having Veteran will save you grinding time and doesn't require DLC or a second seal if Lucina or Olivia are her mother.  I would suggest that veteran is more useful in this case, however the final choice is up to you, especially since you are going to such lengths that are even more constricting than just having a tactician Morgan from the get go.

 

At any rate, I'm open to suggestions for my M!Robin (+mag/-str) Apo team (HM).

 

Maribelle!Lucina x M!Robin

Chrom!Brady x Gaius!Noire/Henry!Cynthia

Lon'qu!Owain x Gregor!Severa/Vaike!Severa

Lucina!Morgan x Libra!Laurent/Ricken!Laurent/Gregor!Laurent

Virion!Gerome/Stahl!Gerome x Henry!Cynthia/Vaike!Nah/Libra!Nah

Ricken!Inigo/Libra!Inigo/Virion!Ingio x Vaike!Nah/Libra!Nah/ Henry!Cynthia (though not likely to do so)

Frederick!Yarne x Donnel!Kjelle

And thus begins the balancing act.

 

Edited by TheSilentChloey
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3 hours ago, TheSilentChloey said:

Which requires DLC.  I seriously wouldn't waste something like that on Morgan when she can get veteran from the start and be that much easier to level up without having to waste a second seal for it.  If I recall correctly, Lucina is the only one that regardless of what skills she has she'll always hand down Aether.  Chrom's other children do not hand down RK or Aether (unless it is in the last slot).  

As far as Morgan is concerned having Veteran will save you grinding time and doesn't require DLC or a second seal if Lucina or Olivia are her mother.  I would suggest that veteran is more useful in this case, however the final choice is up to you, especially since you are going to such lengths that are even more constricting than just having a tactician Morgan from the get go.

We are two different people. I already bought this DLC when I was desperate on ending my grinding session im my last playthrough.

Okay, I checked and you were right about Chrom's other kids not passing down Aether/RK if it's not in the 5th slot so I'll give you that. But I don't think of moving it is as such a hassle.

So no, I'm not going to marry Lucina over Cynthia just for an easy access to a skill that sees limited use when I can just assign her a skill that functions simillarly without having to reclass at all, over quick Galeforce.

Sorry if I came off as harsh, that's what I'm like when I wake up.

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4 hours ago, TheSilentChloey said:

At any rate, I'm open to suggestions for my M!Robin (+mag/-str) Apo team (HM).

 

Maribelle!Lucina x M!Robin

Chrom!Brady x Gaius!Noire/Henry!Cynthia

Lon'qu!Owain x Gregor!Severa/Vaike!Severa

Lucina!Morgan x Libra!Laurent/Ricken!Laurent/Gregor!Laurent

Virion!Gerome/Stahl!Gerome x Henry!Cynthia/Vaike!Nah/Libra!Nah

Ricken!Inigo/Libra!Inigo/Virion!Ingio x Vaike!Nah/Libra!Nah/ Henry!Cynthia (though not likely to do so)

Frederick!Yarne x Donnel!Kjelle

And thus begins the balancing act.

 

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10 hours ago, TheSilentChloey said:

 

Maribelle!Lucina x M!Robin Good

Chrom!Brady x Gaius!Noire/Henry!Cynthia Either's good, though considering I see Noire only listed here you should probably go with Noire.

Lon'qu!Owain x Gregor!Severa/Vaike!Severa Depends on Owain but I think I'd take Vaike!Severa

Lucina!Morgan x Libra!Laurent/Ricken!Laurent/Gregor!Laurent I'm partial to Gregor Laurent myself.

Virion!Gerome/Stahl!Gerome x Henry!Cynthia/Vaike!Nah/Libra!Nah Stahl!Gerome (more classes) x Henry!Cynthia or Libra!Nah 

Ricken!Inigo/Libra!Inigo/Virion!Ingio x Vaike!Nah/Libra!Nah/ Henry!Cynthia (though not likely to do so) Ricken!Inigo x Henry!Cynthia or Libra!Nah

Frederick!Yarne x Donnel!Kjelle Good

And thus begins the balancing act. Decide whether you want a double galepair or two single galepairs with Gerome and Inigo. You won't deploy all these pairs in Apo so feel free to concentrate your power as you see fit. 

 

FWIW stacking Paragon and Veteran is they way to go, and the best way to play Apotheosis is through only fighting on the player phase. (Done by deploying a Sage per combat pair to rescue anyone out of harm's way. Also, Rescue tech in Apotheosis is ridiculously strong.)

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19 minutes ago, Bane said:

 

Quote

Maribelle!Lucina x M!Robin Good

Chrom!Brady x Gaius!Noire/Henry!Cynthia Either's good, though considering I see Noire only listed here you should probably go with Noire.

Lon'qu!Owain x Gregor!Severa/Vaike!Severa Depends on Owain but I think I'd take Vaike!Severa

Lucina!Morgan x Libra!Laurent/Ricken!Laurent/Gregor!Laurent I'm partial to Gregor Laurent myself.

Virion!Gerome/Stahl!Gerome x Henry!Cynthia/Vaike!Nah/Libra!Nah Stahl!Gerome (more classes) x Henry!Cynthia or Libra!Nah 

Ricken!Inigo/Libra!Inigo/Virion!Ingio x Vaike!Nah/Libra!Nah/ Henry!Cynthia (though not likely to do so) Ricken!Inigo x Henry!Cynthia or Libra!Nah

Frederick!Yarne x Donnel!Kjelle Good

And thus begins the balancing act. Decide whether you want a double galepair or two single galepairs with Gerome and Inigo. You won't deploy all these pairs in Apo so feel free to concentrate your power as you see fit. 

FWIW stacking Paragon and Veteran is they way to go, and the best way to play Apotheosis is through only fighting on the player phase. (Done by deploying a Sage per combat pair to rescue anyone out of harm's way. Also, Rescue tech in Apotheosis is ridiculously strong.)

 

So here is what I'm thinking:

Maribelle!Lucina x M!Robin

Chrom!Brady x Gaius!Noire

Lon'qu!Owain x Vaike!Severa 

Lucina!Morgan x Gregor!Laurent

Stahl!Gerome x Henry!Cynthia

Ricken!Inigo x Libria!Nah

Frederick!Yarne x Donnel!Kjelle

Alternatively I could swap Morgan and Cynthia's husbands (I think).  Would that also be viable?

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48 minutes ago, Bane said:

FWIW stacking Paragon and Veteran is the way to go

I doubt it will make a big difference.

I seriously wish I haven't brought up the convinience factor.

Sumia!Lucina!Morgan and Chrom!Cynthia!Morgan are, in the end of the day, the same thing. It's a matter of aesthetics, and I personally prefer Cynthia's personality over Lucina's.

The only difference is that Cynthia lacks Dual Strike+ but Robin doesn't have to be the unit who gets to take advantage of that.

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20 hours ago, Lampy said:

I doubt it will make a big difference.

I seriously wish I haven't brought up the convinience factor.

Sumia!Lucina!Morgan and Chrom!Cynthia!Morgan are, in the end of the day, the same thing. It's a matter of aesthetics, and I personally prefer Cynthia's personality over Lucina's.

The only difference is that Cynthia lacks Dual Strike+ but Robin doesn't have to be the unit who gets to take advantage of that.

As I said in my previous post you do you.  From an optimization stand point it doesn't matter.  However people are merely suggesting alternative builds for Morgan.  Which you do not have to do because this is your Morgan to mold as you wish.  I still consider veteran to be better and like Lucina because of personal bias, thus will always do Robin x Lucina for Morgan's benefit.

Quote

So here is what I'm thinking:

Maribelle!Lucina x M!Robin

Chrom!Brady x Gaius!Noire

Lon'qu!Owain x Vaike!Severa 

Lucina!Morgan x Gregor!Laurent

Stahl!Gerome x Henry!Cynthia

Ricken!Inigo x Libria!Nah

Frederick!Yarne x Donnel!Kjelle

Alternatively I could swap Morgan and Cynthia's husbands (I think).  Would that also be viable?

 

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5 hours ago, TheSilentChloey said:

As I said in my previous post you do you.  From an optimization stand point it doesn't matter.  However people are merely suggesting alternative builds for Morgan.  Which you do not have to do because this is your Morgan to mold as you wish.  I still consider veteran to be better and like Lucina because of personal bias, thus will always do Robin x Lucina for Morgan's benefit.

I don't think I noticed that.

Regardless, I'm really sorry I reacted that way... I should stop getting mad over people's opinions, especially when they're trying to help me.

I try to stay out of internet fights, so I really didn't mean to start one. I should keep my temper in check.

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13 hours ago, Lampy said:

I don't think I noticed that.

Regardless, I'm really sorry I reacted that way... I should stop getting mad over people's opinions, especially when they're trying to help me.

I try to stay out of internet fights, so I really didn't mean to start one. I should keep my temper in check.

I think that seems to be something we all do from time to time.  Words alas can not be taken the way we always intend them to as no one else can read our minds.

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So I'm pushing around ideas for Maribelle!Lucina and could do with a second or third opinion. I'm looking at Apotheosis, both no-holds-barred (where choices don't matter that much) and no-braves (where they actually might).

Being, well, Maribelle!Lucina, we're not finishing her in a physical class (sorry, Snipers and Parallel Falchion). So our options are Sage and Dark Flier (44 speed), and Valkyrie (45). Aesthetically, I like the idea of finishing her in Valkyrie, but let's not rule out any of her options right now.

My dilemma proceeds thusly: You all probably know this already, but Maribelle!Lucina in any of her caster classes isn't hitting 75 Speed (doubles Anna, NS) with a male +Mag support without undesirable effects, and giving her a physical unit means wasted +Str (unless Hero/Bow Knight/Swordmaster), and if he's ever in front, he'll be wasting her +Mag pair up and getting Dual Strikes without Tomefaire backing them. And that's before even getting into the question of whether Maribelle!Lucina wants to hit 75 Speed - she's hardly going to be the only member of the army making this benchmark, and taking a physical support means she's not going to do that much to Nightmare Sniper (Aegis+ on her attacks and 70 def on her physical support's).

So we're looking at a number of options, each about as unattractive as the other...

(1) We use a physical hard support without +Str. Setting aside fanciful notions of Swordmasters for now, we're probably looking at Hero and Bow Knight, and Heroes just do more damage on Dual Strikes. The strongest of these is Vaike!Gerome@Axefaire Hero (I suppose you could make an argument for Bowfaire BK on fliers, but screw that). +3 Spe on pair up means we finish in Valkyrie for 75 speed. As a Hero (rather than a Berserker) Gerome can carry Str+2, putting him 4 Str behind Henry!Gerome@Berserker (who's carrying Anathema). 2 damage per hit after Dragonskin... is not so bad, I don't think...

(1.1) We go Dark Flier x hard support Assassin. The +4 Speed support lets Lucina run 75 Speed Dark Flier, rather than forcing her into Valkyrie (she can carry Sage as well, but we probably already have Owain and Brady in Sage). +2 Str is wasted but she still gets +2 Skl so for Lucina herself it's not far off +3/+3 on a Hero support. Unfortunately, the Assassin in question (optimal is probably Stahl!Gerome@Bowfaire) is going to be weak on dual strikes... I'm thinking pass on this.

(2) We carry a Berserker, either the aforementioned Henry!Gerome or a Stahl!Yarne (both hit 55 Atk with accuracy skills). Again, we finish in Valkyrie. Downsides: Wasted +Str, no +Skl for Valkyrie's relatively low Skill and Lucina procstack. Upsides: She wasn't gonna get +Mag anyway, so might as well maximise her Dual Strike damage. One other interesting option that opens up here is that both of them are hitting 75 speed as Berserkers with Valkyrie's +2 Spe support, something that Vaike!Gerome@Hero fails to do (he is 1 point short after AS+2). That opens up switching to Berserker as the lead against Nightmare Sniper as an option to score brave magical dual strikes on his lower Res (doesn't matter in no braves). But again, Mari!Lucina has no room for Tomefaire, so I'm rating this possibility as "an option if desperate, but avoid otherwise".

(3) We give her a caster hard support. Some variant of Laurent is probably optimal here - in practice, though, I'm more likely to toss said Laurent to Cynthia and go for a Tomefaire Gerome variant. Caster support means she's ditching 75 Speed Valk builds to go for 69 Speed Dark Flier or Sage. In exchange, she gets the Sage's +4 Mag support (putting her at +6 over Valk as a DF and a whopping +10 as a Sage), and the stopping power of Sage dual strikes. If her support is sufficiently fast (Virion!Gerome and Gregor!Laurent both are, but Libra! and Henry!Gerome are not), they can lead against and double Nightmare Sniper. Again, Lucina misses Tomefaire, so it's still not an amazing option. But it's better than before...

(4) We give her a galeboy. Robin-M exists, so Morgan-M is out. Brady is her brother and can't get an S support, so he's out. Owain is her cousin and can't get an- wait... let's not go there, shall we? That leaves Inigo who's a philanderer, but he'll have to do. I'm 90% sure this is not an option I want to take anyway due to effects on the rest of the army and the fact that Lucina has a dual proc and no faires, but it's worth fleshing out.

(4.1) Physical Inigo (say, Fred-fathered) can go Axefaire Hero, but is likely to be unacceptably weak as a lead due to no +Str support from Mari!Lucina's Valkyrie and no Faire on her dual strikes. This might work anyway no-holds-barred, but I'm thinking of taking this setup through no-braves so it's probably a bad idea.

(4.2) A Caster Inigo (Libra for Vengeance or Kellam let's say Ricken for Luna), on the other hand, will lead decently; won't be able to double Nightmare Sniper but that's not a major issue, but at least he gets Mag from her. This actually sounds like a surprisingly solid option, despite Lucina's faireless Dual Strikes. Might be better with Ricken!Owain instead of Caster Inigo, but... no.

(5) We do physical Lucina. Not on the table, or we'd be carrying Sumia! or Olivia!Lucina.

Any thoughts? How important is reaching 75 Speed here? Better option, worse option, forgotten option?

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On 10/16/2017 at 10:11 PM, TheSilentChloey said:

 

So here is what I'm thinking:

Maribelle!Lucina x M!Robin

Chrom!Brady x Gaius!Noire

Lon'qu!Owain x Vaike!Severa 

Lucina!Morgan x Gregor!Laurent

Stahl!Gerome x Henry!Cynthia

Ricken!Inigo x Libria!Nah

Frederick!Yarne x Donnel!Kjelle

Alternatively I could swap Morgan and Cynthia's husbands (I think).  Would that also be viable?

 

So I had a look at the pairings that I have and have thought of some alternatives that I am not sure would be viable for Apo.  So with the above parents sort of set here is the alternate list (making a note that these are pairings that are swapped over only)

Gaius!Noire x Stahl!Gerome Virion!Gerome (since I wanted Virion to at least be a father and give him a decent ending :/ damn me! Although I don't think Gerome will mind because he gets a hit boost all the same which he needs)

Chrom!Brady x Henry!Cynthia

OR

Lucina!Morgan x Virion!Gerome

Henry!Cynthia x Gergor!Laurent

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If you haven't locked in Fred!Yarne then Virion!Yarne is a solid option. Not using Stahl is a bit of a shame, but whatever. Virion!Gerome is also more suited to going support Sage than Stahl!Gerome due to... a single point improvement in magic. Your team composition looks extremely magic-heavy and for some reason Gerome is always getting pushed towards the caster girls so it might not be a terrible idea anyway.

From your base setup, I don't think Henry!Cynthia@Dark Flier x Stahl!Gerome@Bowfaire Warrior is doing that much. If you do Virion!Gerome@Sage that might work out better for you there. In any case it looks like you're giving Henry!Cynthia a Sage or a Gerome who can go to Sage so she's going to be more or less the same in all compositions.

Regarding the first setup, Chrom!Brady x Henry!Cynthia will stomp units well enough but it feels like a bit of a waste of speed. Brady in particular reaches 74 speed with this setup which is rather a shame - I personally might trade out his Tomefaire to All Stats +2 depending on how much I needed that extra unit at 75 speed to bring down NS and Anna. Your units don't look particularly fast in general so this is probably something I would do if I were you, yes.

Gaius!Noire@Sniper reaches 69 speed with Virion!Gerome@Bowfaire Warrior in her pocket and is well suited to dealing with all kinds of mooks, especially Nightmare Sniper's nightmare minions with Counter/Luna, but not having a Sage support means she's no longer as well equipped to deal with the Wave 4 Berserker boss, which is the whole point of hitting 69 Speed. Again, Virion!Gerome has a usable support Sage setup; Noire loses his 5 Str pairup but I'm inclined to say this is a good option anyway and you can always go back to Bowfaire Warrior if you don't like it.

The second setup... Maribelle!Lucina!Morgan probably wants Mag/Def or Spe/Def. In either case I'm not convinced she wants Gerome in Bowfaire Warrior, which is Virion!Gerome's flagship set. She'll do decently if he goes Sage.

Henry!Cynthia x Gregor!Laurent is perfectly fine.

 

tl;dr you have so many caster- and Aegis-hitting units (I think only Yarne x Kjelle and Severa hit Pavise with Str weapons) that Virion!Gerome@Sage will probably work out fine for you here and I definitely recommend you do Virion!Gerome over Stahl (give him to Panne if she's still free). Under that assumption all your setups should be fine. I'm personally not a fan of giving him Warrior in any of these cases (Mag lead x Physical support runs into all sorts of enemy targeting issues) but they'll be decent skirmishers. That said keep an eye out for enemies with Aegis+ because 3/4 of your units hit Aegis; if Severa or Kjelle aren't nearby you might be in trouble.

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23 hours ago, soly said:

 

Spoiler

So I'm pushing around ideas for Maribelle!Lucina and could do with a second or third opinion. I'm looking at Apotheosis, both no-holds-barred (where choices don't matter that much) and no-braves (where they actually might).

Being, well, Maribelle!Lucina, we're not finishing her in a physical class (sorry, Snipers and Parallel Falchion). So our options are Sage and Dark Flier (44 speed), and Valkyrie (45). Aesthetically, I like the idea of finishing her in Valkyrie, but let's not rule out any of her options right now.

My dilemma proceeds thusly: You all probably know this already, but Maribelle!Lucina in any of her caster classes isn't hitting 75 Speed (doubles Anna, NS) with a male +Mag support without undesirable effects, and giving her a physical unit means wasted +Str (unless Hero/Bow Knight/Swordmaster), and if he's ever in front, he'll be wasting her +Mag pair up and getting Dual Strikes without Tomefaire backing them. And that's before even getting into the question of whether Maribelle!Lucina wants to hit 75 Speed - she's hardly going to be the only member of the army making this benchmark, and taking a physical support means she's not going to do that much to Nightmare Sniper (Aegis+ on her attacks and 70 def on her physical support's).

So we're looking at a number of options, each about as unattractive as the other...

(1) We use a physical hard support without +Str. Setting aside fanciful notions of Swordmasters for now, we're probably looking at Hero and Bow Knight, and Heroes just do more damage on Dual Strikes. The strongest of these is Vaike!Gerome@Axefaire Hero (I suppose you could make an argument for Bowfaire BK on fliers, but screw that). +3 Spe on pair up means we finish in Valkyrie for 75 speed. As a Hero (rather than a Berserker) Gerome can carry Str+2, putting him 4 Str behind Henry!Gerome@Berserker (who's carrying Anathema). 2 damage per hit after Dragonskin... is not so bad, I don't think...

(1.1) We go Dark Flier x hard support Assassin. The +4 Speed support lets Lucina run 75 Speed Dark Flier, rather than forcing her into Valkyrie (she can carry Sage as well, but we probably already have Owain and Brady in Sage). +2 Str is wasted but she still gets +2 Skl so for Lucina herself it's not far off +3/+3 on a Hero support. Unfortunately, the Assassin in question (optimal is probably Stahl!Gerome@Bowfaire) is going to be weak on dual strikes... I'm thinking pass on this.

(2) We carry a Berserker, either the aforementioned Henry!Gerome or a Stahl!Yarne (both hit 55 Atk with accuracy skills). Again, we finish in Valkyrie. Downsides: Wasted +Str, no +Skl for Valkyrie's relatively low Skill and Lucina procstack. Upsides: She wasn't gonna get +Mag anyway, so might as well maximise her Dual Strike damage. One other interesting option that opens up here is that both of them are hitting 75 speed as Berserkers with Valkyrie's +2 Spe support, something that Vaike!Gerome@Hero fails to do (he is 1 point short after AS+2). That opens up switching to Berserker as the lead against Nightmare Sniper as an option to score brave magical dual strikes on his lower Res (doesn't matter in no braves). But again, Mari!Lucina has no room for Tomefaire, so I'm rating this possibility as "an option if desperate, but avoid otherwise".

(3) We give her a caster hard support. Some variant of Laurent is probably optimal here - in practice, though, I'm more likely to toss said Laurent to Cynthia and go for a Tomefaire Gerome variant. Caster support means she's ditching 75 Speed Valk builds to go for 69 Speed Dark Flier or Sage. In exchange, she gets the Sage's +4 Mag support (putting her at +6 over Valk as a DF and a whopping +10 as a Sage), and the stopping power of Sage dual strikes. If her support is sufficiently fast (Virion!Gerome and Gregor!Laurent both are, but Libra! and Henry!Gerome are not), they can lead against and double Nightmare Sniper. Again, Lucina misses Tomefaire, so it's still not an amazing option. But it's better than before...

(4) We give her a galeboy. Robin-M exists, so Morgan-M is out. Brady is her brother and can't get an S support, so he's out. Owain is her cousin and can't get an- wait... let's not go there, shall we? That leaves Inigo who's a philanderer, but he'll have to do. I'm 90% sure this is not an option I want to take anyway due to effects on the rest of the army and the fact that Lucina has a dual proc and no faires, but it's worth fleshing out.

(4.1) Physical Inigo (say, Fred-fathered) can go Axefaire Hero, but is likely to be unacceptably weak as a lead due to no +Str support from Mari!Lucina's Valkyrie and no Faire on her dual strikes. This might work anyway no-holds-barred, but I'm thinking of taking this setup through no-braves so it's probably a bad idea.

(4.2) A Caster Inigo (Libra for Vengeance or Kellam let's say Ricken for Luna), on the other hand, will lead decently; won't be able to double Nightmare Sniper but that's not a major issue, but at least he gets Mag from her. This actually sounds like a surprisingly solid option, despite Lucina's faireless Dual Strikes. Might be better with Ricken!Owain instead of Caster Inigo, but... no.

(5) We do physical Lucina. Not on the table, or we'd be carrying Sumia! or Olivia!Lucina.

Any thoughts? How important is reaching 75 Speed here? Better option, worse option, forgotten option?

 

You could marry M!Robin and roll +mag/-def and Grandmaster. Lucina will need All stats+2 to hit 75 speed in any of Sage, Valkyrie and Dark Flier but you get +mag,+skill and+speed all at once. Otherwise consider marrying a Sniper with Vengeance. You mentioned you aren't using braves and one of the best non-brave weapons is the Longbow because of its increased hit range. You'll never hit 75 speed and you'll need All stats +2 to hit 69 speed with Lucina and double Throne Zerker, but maybe you can leave that guy to somebody else and just Longbow him down. 

 

3 hours ago, TheSilentChloey said:

Gaius!Noire x Stahl!Gerome Virion!Gerome 

Chrom!Brady x Henry!Cynthia

OR

Lucina!Morgan x Virion!Gerome

Henry!Cynthia x Gergor!Laurent

 

1 hour ago, soly said:
Spoiler

 

If you haven't locked in Fred!Yarne then Virion!Yarne is a solid option. Not using Stahl is a bit of a shame, but whatever. Virion!Gerome is also more suited to going support Sage than Stahl!Gerome due to... a single point improvement in magic. Your team composition looks extremely magic-heavy and for some reason Gerome is always getting pushed towards the caster girls so it might not be a terrible idea anyway.

From your base setup, I don't think Henry!Cynthia@Dark Flier x Stahl!Gerome@Bowfaire Warrior is doing that much. If you do Virion!Gerome@Sage that might work out better for you there. In any case it looks like you're giving Henry!Cynthia a Sage or a Gerome who can go to Sage so she's going to be more or less the same in all compositions.

Regarding the first setup, Chrom!Brady x Henry!Cynthia will stomp units well enough but it feels like a bit of a waste of speed. Brady in particular reaches 74 speed with this setup which is rather a shame - I personally might trade out his Tomefaire to All Stats +2 depending on how much I needed that extra unit at 75 speed to bring down NS and Anna. Your units don't look particularly fast in general so this is probably something I would do if I were you, yes.

Gaius!Noire@Sniper reaches 69 speed with Virion!Gerome@Bowfaire Warrior in her pocket and is well suited to dealing with all kinds of mooks, especially Nightmare Sniper's nightmare minions with Counter/Luna, but not having a Sage support means she's no longer as well equipped to deal with the Wave 4 Berserker boss, which is the whole point of hitting 69 Speed. Again, Virion!Gerome has a usable support Sage setup; Noire loses his 5 Str pairup but I'm inclined to say this is a good option anyway and you can always go back to Bowfaire Warrior if you don't like it.

The second setup... Maribelle!Lucina!Morgan probably wants Mag/Def or Spe/Def. In either case I'm not convinced she wants Gerome in Bowfaire Warrior, which is Virion!Gerome's flagship set. She'll do decently if he goes Sage.

Henry!Cynthia x Gregor!Laurent is perfectly fine.

 

tl;dr you have so many caster- and Aegis-hitting units (I think only Yarne x Kjelle and Severa hit Pavise with Str weapons) that Virion!Gerome@Sage will probably work out fine for you here and I definitely recommend you do Virion!Gerome over Stahl (give him to Panne if she's still free). Under that assumption all your setups should be fine. I'm personally not a fan of giving him Warrior in any of these cases (Mag lead x Physical support runs into all sorts of enemy targeting issues) but they'll be decent skirmishers. That said keep an eye out for enemies with Aegis+ because 3/4 of your units hit Aegis; if Severa or Kjelle aren't nearby you might be in trouble.

 

 

Solid advice. I also don't remember if Aegis triggers on dual strikes? If it does and you're running Bowfaire!Warrior!Gerome you can just switch to Axes for the enemies it matters on.

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Lucina, unfortunately, is basically locked to Limit Breaker/Galeforce/Luna/Aether/Dual Strike+ and will probably never have room to carry AS+2 in any relevant build with Limit Breaker. You have the option to drop a proc, but I feel like that's a significant downgrade. Without AS+2, I feel like it's a waste of Robin's +Spe/Skl/Mag potential and she'll get better results from a Sage. If you're suggesting marrying a Galeboy Sniper, Lucina's Dual Strikes will be relatively weak due to lacking a Faire, so I don't consider it an attractive option. It's probably hard support or bust on this one, I think...

Aegis does not trigger on Dual Strikes. There's always the possibility of Gerome leading with an axe against enemies with Aegis, but as he'll likely be built as a hard support I think it's not a favourable option.

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I had success with Sage Maribelle!Lucina for no dlc/no braves. She hard supported Sage Morgan who lead V/V. That situation gives her more slots to play with (she skips Aether/Luna, and no dlc skips LB/AS+2). Especially when you have LB, 100% DS is easily accessible. Personally, I don't find 75 Spd to be something you need. But I understand it can be hard to pass up double damage on those bulky/high damage bosses.

The biggest issue is a statement like "basically locked to... never..." It isn't very truthful because skills like procs [and sometimes even galeforce] could be replaced by something. How bad do you want to reach 75 Spd? Do you really think lacking a faire makes her dual strikes lacking (especially when LB is a straight double damage upgrade from a faire in a no dlc world)?

Just some things for you to think about.

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True enough (I think I saw that run, by the way, it was very impressive - Skl+2 on a Laurent!Morgan-M, I think it was?).

I just feel like Lucina is a top-tier procstacking lead due to guaranteed Dual Strikes and possibly the best dual proc combination in the game, and that precisely because of this, she's often not going to be performing quite as well in the support position - her potent dual procs aren't doing anything for her there. If we take Aether/Luna/DS+/Limit as given skills, she can either take Galeforce and further cement her position as an amazing lead, or take something like Tomefaire which lets her go to the backline, and in this case I think most people will agree that Galeforce is a better option.

There's always the option to drop Aether, Luna, Dual Strike+, or Limit Breaker, but I'm of the opinion that this isn't a good option. Losing Luna drops her stable proc, losing DS+ drops her signature 100% dual strike rate, and whole challenge runs are played around losing Limit. That leaves Aether, which is a hyper-potent second proc (but probably the one to drop, if required). I'm therefore going to opine that in a no-holds-barred scenario, Lucina should be aiming to lead 100% of the time with Limit/Galeforce/Aether/Luna/Dual Strike+, and (again, in such a no-holds-barred scenario) any step away from this setup is suboptimal for a procstacking setup.

Obviously, optimisation changes massively when you start talking about no DLC, no DLC/no braves, or even the use of Vantage/Vengeance which is a ball game all its own (the entirety of the above assumes that we're using Luna/Ignis/Aether/Astra stacks). But I do, at least, think that for the no-braves run I'm prepping for, this is probably a skillset I don't want to deviate from.

I'd love to hear your opinion on all this - much of what I know is secondhand from this thread. And stomping Apo no-holds-barred isn't that useful.

Regarding the 75 speed benchmark, I do think it's something that people tend to just see that it exists and push to get. The reality is that it really only exists for Mister Nightmare Sniper and Anna, so having more than, say, 2 units carrying 75 speed is redundant - and if they aren't properly set up, it's no use anyway. I'm beginning to think this is the case for Mari!Lucina who doesn't care for getting physical DSes on Nightmare Sniper. With that said, it's at least extremely useful for at least those two units to push for 75 speed, so if I'm looking at the rest of my unit setup and seeing that they're all slow, I might want to do so anyway. (This is definitely not the case, these units are incredibly fast, I can totally see why people do no-limit runs.)

Truth be told, I kind of want to run LQ!Gerome as a Levin Sword Trickster support to Mari!Lucina@Valkyrie now. It's probably actually bad, but I simply can't get the idea out of my head.

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Yeah, if you're going to be procstacking, I would say LB/Aether/Luna/DS+/GF is probably the way to go. She's one of the best procstackers because she gets Aether/Luna. She also just so happens to be one of the best hard supports because she has DS+ (which is what Robin or Morgan want for V/V). Maribelle!Lucina (at least in no dlc) really shines because of both her mag mod and mag+2 skill (those stats add up for certain kills). Of course, once you throw in LB, there's a lot of leeway that lets Sumia perform that same role (where Maribelle's Mag lead becomes negligible and Sumia's Spd lead is just as useless). What's important here is that you're analyzing the stats you need and want. For example, in a V/V world, 75 Spd is hot garbage. If you double someone, that means someone else gets to attack you (and you're at 1 HP). So the only Spd stat you could want is to double enemies who don't attack back (read: Mire Fliers) or for a setup (eg; Ricken!Severa's Spd stat in no dlc/no rally). Do note that once you decide on a final Spd stat through pairings, it becomes quite hard to manipulate a Spd stat higher than your original calcs. So make sure you're happy with your team before you spend hours grinding your team (and it's too late to change your mind).

Knowing that you want Lucina to be a lead procstacker, the fantastic top-of-the-line Sniper/Sage (something FeMU x Chrom love to pull off) seems slightly less-than-useful. Now I will say this: you don't need a proc to lead Sniper/Sage because the whole point is to generate damage through magical dual strikes. If Chrom proc-less + FeMU with a v/v setup (FeMU doesn't run mag+2 in no dlc/low deploy), then FeMU is supporting with just tomefaire. Now throw in children mods and double faire's damage (a la LB), and you're doing great damage. Don't sell your damage short because you only have LB. It isn't only LB because it has ridiculous advantages relative to faire. Sure, supporting is better with a faire (as is supporting with Agg). So keep it in the back of your mind that a star V/V Sage with only a faire in raw mag can [and will often]  excel as a support for a Sniper.

I should also let you know you can take this opinion very lightly because I don't have any DLC besides Apo. That's the real reason why all my challenge runs have the no dlc "modifier"... I can only guess that LB and Agg are going to pull more weight than you think (because they add +10 or 20 Atk depending on the gender). That fire power is something I can't tie with my own experiences. But I will say that a faire (without either LB or Agg) will get the job done if you play your cards right. I don't know how to measure how easier/simpler or even how many mistakes that DLC allows you to make over a no dlc counterpart. I don't have my no dlc/no braves .txt file with me (I think it had a few unimportant miscalcs), but from what I remember it was basically Rexcalibur and Long Bows carrying majority of the weight. I can't speak for Levin Sword Tricksters, but holy guacermole that sounds astronomically terribad. But if it's what you want to do, I say you should do it. Just keep in mind that if you sink so many resources into it--and you fail--it will be a huge regret. So don't fail!

Tl;dr do your last paragraph

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8 hours ago, Vascela said:

What's important here is that you're analyzing the stats you need and want.

*snips*

Fantastic advice on all counts, thank you!

8 hours ago, Vascela said:

Tl;dr do your last paragraph

yessir

In all seriousness on this topic, I'm not as concerned about opportunity cost as I ought to be. In a procstacking world, Severa doesn't particularly want Lon'qu (Enter the Vaike!); Brady's already been given Chrom, and Laurent is getting Gregor for unrelated reasons (no-braves runs gives him the option of taking Armsthrift Mjolnir for 100% dual strikes with certain Sniper leads). That means Lon'qu is free... to go to Gerome.

Sacrilege! LQ!Gerome is remarkably incapable of Gerome's standard no-holds-barred hard support setups - he loses Axefaire Berserker and Bowfaire Warrior. That said, Gerome has natural access to Priest and Sage, which gives him a standard Sage support setup for Mari!Lucina - and Lon'qu doesn't hurt his magic. Libra, Henry or Ricken would obviously be better here, but Lon'qu also passes access to Myrmidon and Thief lines, opening up the amazing, wonderful, probably utter trash option of Swordfaire Levin Sword Trickster in a no-braves setting. If that doesn't work out (and I'm not particularly hopeful, to be honest), LQ!Gerome is likely to be perfectly serviceable, though not exemplary, as a Hero, Sage or Assassin with a relevant -faire. And he gets jet-black hair to go with his armor so there is that.

In other words, it's hopefully going to be fine, no regrets, contingency plans exist and so will this weirdo Gerome variant =D

I'm gonna do it, I'm actually gonna do it... this is a bad idea, but it will be so great...

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1 hour ago, soly said:

I'm gonna do it, I'm actually gonna do it... this is a bad idea, but it will be so great...

I've seen other people in this thread swear by Dark Knight Gaius!Noire for being able to pull out a Levin Sword for Thronezerker (because swords don't trigger aegis and he has low resistance) so give it a try and feel free to tell us how it goes in a month or two once your team is ground up and ready. If you're running LB and Agg with Swordfaire on a hard support I think you can make Trickster useful, but it just isn't normally as good as other classes.

 

10 hours ago, Vascela said:

 I can only guess that LB and Agg are going to pull more weight than you think (because they add +10 or 20 Atk depending on the gender). That fire power is something I can't tie with my own experiences.

FWIW aggressor and Limit Breaker are only +5 damage per attack on a support (due to half damage from support and half damage from dragonskin) and LB is + 5 damage on a lead (thanks dragonskin). Granted in most runs with Braves that hit all 12 strikes that's 60 damage before you start looking into weapon mights and character stats. LB, Aggressor and Braves make it extremely easy to kill a man and they generally push you to the point where you are just about guaranteed to kill enemies before they can counter attack. If you can get a Sniper up to 100% dual strike you can generally kill anything from 3 range with a Longbow.

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1 hour ago, soly said:

I'm gonna do it, I'm actually gonna do it... this is a bad idea, but it will be so great...

I've seen other people in this thread swear by Dark Knight Gaius!Noire for being able to pull out a Levin Sword for Thronezerker (because swords don't trigger aegis and he has low resistance) so give it a try and feel free to tell us how it goes in a month or two once your team is ground up and ready. If you're running LB and Agg with Swordfaire on a hard support I think you can make Trickster useful, but it just isn't normally as good as other classes.

 

10 hours ago, Vascela said:

 I can only guess that LB and Agg are going to pull more weight than you think (because they add +10 or 20 Atk depending on the gender). That fire power is something I can't tie with my own experiences.

FWIW aggressor and Limit Breaker are only +5 damage per attack on a support (due to half damage from support and half damage from dragonskin) and LB is + 5 damage on a lead (thanks dragonskin). Granted in most runs with Braves that hit all 12 strikes that's 60 damage before you start looking into weapon mights and character stats. LB, Aggressor and Braves make it extremely easy to kill a man and they generally push you to the point where you are just about guaranteed to kill enemies before they can counter attack. If you can get a Sniper up to 100% dual strike you can generally kill anything from 3 range with a Longbow.

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On 10/21/2017 at 10:29 PM, soly said:

If you haven't locked in Fred!Yarne then Virion!Yarne is a solid option. Not using Stahl is a bit of a shame, but whatever. Virion!Gerome is also more suited to going support Sage than Stahl!Gerome due to... a single point improvement in magic. Your team composition looks extremely magic-heavy and for some reason Gerome is always getting pushed towards the caster girls so it might not be a terrible idea anyway.

From your base setup, I don't think Henry!Cynthia@Dark Flier x Stahl!Gerome@Bowfaire Warrior is doing that much. If you do Virion!Gerome@Sage that might work out better for you there. In any case it looks like you're giving Henry!Cynthia a Sage or a Gerome who can go to Sage so she's going to be more or less the same in all compositions.

Regarding the first setup, Chrom!Brady x Henry!Cynthia will stomp units well enough but it feels like a bit of a waste of speed. Brady in particular reaches 74 speed with this setup which is rather a shame - I personally might trade out his Tomefaire to All Stats +2 depending on how much I needed that extra unit at 75 speed to bring down NS and Anna. Your units don't look particularly fast in general so this is probably something I would do if I were you, yes.

Gaius!Noire@Sniper reaches 69 speed with Virion!Gerome@Bowfaire Warrior in her pocket and is well suited to dealing with all kinds of mooks, especially Nightmare Sniper's nightmare minions with Counter/Luna, but not having a Sage support means she's no longer as well equipped to deal with the Wave 4 Berserker boss, which is the whole point of hitting 69 Speed. Again, Virion!Gerome has a usable support Sage setup; Noire loses his 5 Str pairup but I'm inclined to say this is a good option anyway and you can always go back to Bowfaire Warrior if you don't like it.

The second setup... Maribelle!Lucina!Morgan probably wants Mag/Def or Spe/Def. In either case I'm not convinced she wants Gerome in Bowfaire Warrior, which is Virion!Gerome's flagship set. She'll do decently if he goes Sage.

Henry!Cynthia x Gregor!Laurent is perfectly fine.

 

tl;dr you have so many caster- and Aegis-hitting units (I think only Yarne x Kjelle and Severa hit Pavise with Str weapons) that Virion!Gerome@Sage will probably work out fine for you here and I definitely recommend you do Virion!Gerome over Stahl (give him to Panne if she's still free). Under that assumption all your setups should be fine. I'm personally not a fan of giving him Warrior in any of these cases (Mag lead x Physical support runs into all sorts of enemy targeting issues) but they'll be decent skirmishers. That said keep an eye out for enemies with Aegis+ because 3/4 of your units hit Aegis; if Severa or Kjelle aren't nearby you might be in trouble.

 

From what I have observed I do tend to lean on magic units more (because they're ranged units like Snipers).  I'm not a fan of bows to be honest.  However I am also using my Apo team for story purposes as well, so there is that to consider.  Plus I'm sure that there will be some rally spectrum bots for the purpose of getting their speed up and speed tonics as well (since that is what I am planing to do).  The other thing is that I have a DEF heavy sorc that I could use for fun...but we'd have to see about that.

 

Or alternatively I could just use my NM team, but they are far from optimal...

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