PAIRINGS The Pairing Thread

[TheSilentChloey]

So I'm doing lunatic mode and was wondering which pairs are going to be the best for the game.  I have the following pairs planed:

 

~+Mag/-Str Robin x Chrom

~Lissa x Lon'qu (likely) or Libra (?)

~Cordelia x Gregor

~Sumia x Henry

~Maribelle x Libra or Ricken depending on which is easiest.

 

[Bane]

On 11/19/2017 at 9:28 AM, soly said:

Stuff about how Vengeance isn't good for no braves.

No

In Apotheosis you can pick every fight, always fight without incurring counter attacks and heal up to full instantly. You'll deploy maybe 5 combat pairs, Olivia, 2 (maybe 3) rallybots and then fill up on staffbots. It is quite easy to set yourself up to get a bonus off of Vengeance and then fight entirely on your own terms. I'm also worried you won't have the power to one round without a proc (or a crit) and Vengeance is the most reliable proc. Let characters get hit once on the enemy phase and then don't let them get hit again.

On 11/19/2017 at 4:46 PM, TheSilentChloey said:

So I'm doing lunatic mode and was wondering which pairs are going to be the best for the game.  I have the following pairs planed:

 

~+Mag/-Str Robin x Chrom

~Lissa x Lon'qu (likely) or Libra (?)

~Cordelia x Gregor

~Sumia x Henry

~Maribelle x Libra or Ricken depending on which is easiest.

You can sweep the whole thing with RobinxChrom and their kids if you give them enough favoritism. If you're not willing to do that I'll need to relook at your pairs and see if I can recommend anything.

[soly]

The logic chain is as follows.

No brave runs means you do 1/3 as many attacks as with brave runs ("lead attack > support attack" becomes "lead-support-support-lead-support-support). You hit "merely" twice instead of six times before the target retaliates.

That means that there's a very good chance that you won't kill the target in one attack + one support attack (and you better be praying that you don't fail to trigger a Dual Strike, because that guarantees it). There's a very good chance the target will be able to hit back.

If you're carrying high-damage Vengeance, that means there's a very good chance that you're dead.

10 hours ago, Bane said:

In Apotheosis you can pick every fight (conceded), always fight without incurring counter attacks (not necessarily true, see above) and heal up to full instantly (why are you carrying Vengeance then? Also, Fortify drops your Vengeance damage, which means your AoE healing is much less convenient). You'll deploy maybe 5 combat pairs, Olivia, 2 (maybe 3) rallybots and then fill up on staffbots. It is quite easy to set yourself up to get a bonus off of Vengeance and then fight entirely on your own terms (need to Fortify? Too bad. Your Vengeance user can't attack anyone without getting counterattacked? Too bad. Fail to trigger Dual Strike? Too bad.). I'm also worried you won't have the power to one round without a proc (or a crit) and Vengeance is the most reliable proc (fail to proc Luna/Aether/Ignis? Rescue out of harm's way since you're loaded on Rescue bots, heal up, try again. Carrying Vengeance and fail to proc Dual Strike? You're dead. Trying to set up Vengeance and got a Dual Guard? Vengeance does 0 damage). Let characters get hit once on the enemy phase and then don't let them get hit again (harder than it sounds, again, see above; also Dual Guards will ruin your Vengeance).

You can argue "Don't let the Vengeance user pick fights in which they can get counterattacked" but I'm worried that there are going to be a lot of such fights, which limits your Vengeance user's combat choices.

Attack, take damage, and let your second attack trigger Vengeance? 40% Dual Guard says nope.

Longbow Snipers (primarily Noire builds and Virion!Severa, I think) still shred things incredibly well with Vengeance, yes, but the context here is Vengeance Owain and Inigo. They're not snipers - Libra!Owain is a spellcaster with 1-2 range and Inigo is projected to be carrying the Vengeance axe, a 1 range weapon.

I'm not saying that Vengeance is necessarily bad in no-brave runs of Apotheosis. I'm saying, you better know what you're getting into when you carry it, because it has a rather impressive host of drawbacks and caveats that you have to take into account when using it, where standard procstacking Luna/Ignis/Aether/Astra is a pretty simple fire-and-forget setup.

 

[Vascela]

FWIW I used Rexcalibur V/V for no dlc/no braves using a turn 1 setup (and no healing/resetup later). For enemies (and quite a bit of them), you'll need a long bow poke to get clean KOs because you are at 1 HP. That isn't really an issue for me, because I run 5 Spotpass Snipers... There are also really bulky enemies like Aegis+ Zerks that require multiple shots from long bow until you can "all in" the guy. Though, that's not a concern thanks to the generous turn count. If you aren't comfortable and don't want to use vengeance, I don't think your run will be impossible by any means. Having +42 Atk is quite a useful toy in the right hands.

I've never had a use for healing followed up by a resetup. At the same time, I don't doubt it could be useful in certain circumstances. But I'm also the guy that reclasses 5 Wyvern Lords into 5 Snipers halfway through wave 1 to make easier setups. How many people actually use a second seal in the middle of the map? I can acknowledge it has the potential to be useful, but I've never done it.

In terms of dual strikes, I either gun for 100% or emulate 0% (via unequipping). I don't see "fail to dual strike" as a harsh negative. It's free damage, but it has a hefty cost (requires some team building). Sometimes you just don't have the resources to get 100%, but you find ways to manage. One of them is by simply poking with a Sniper. Another is resorting to seemingly "bad" skills like Mag+2. For example, my no dlc/no rally Morgan doesn't run galeforce or 100% DS. Sometimes you have to bite the bullet.

Setups in general are done unpaired. I like having setups done ASAP, so I'll get my lead Vengeance Sages (some runs use 1, some use 2) done on wave 0/turn 1. Because of the turn requirement to enter secret, I settle for the Sniper setups in wave 1.

Go ahead and run proc stacking. You'll probably be successful. There's certainly quite a bit of planning for vengeance, but I think the perfect consistency is worth it.

[soly]

Building your entire team and Apo strategy around Vantage/Vengeance is completely different from just slapping Vengeance Libra!Owain and Armsthrift Vengeance Axe Inigo on a team, though. If you're just slapping Vengeance on your units "so that they get a stable proc" that's not really a good idea. Vengeance users don't play that well with the rest of your team (want to Fortify? too bad) and need to be treated with a lot more care than the average procstacker. Don't get me wrong, a properly used Vengeance unit is devastating. But the key word here is "properly used". If you don't know how to treat a Vengeance unit, you're probably better off procstacking.

[TheSilentChloey]

On 23/11/2017 at 11:58 PM, Bane said:

No

In Apotheosis you can pick every fight, always fight without incurring counter attacks and heal up to full instantly. You'll deploy maybe 5 combat pairs, Olivia, 2 (maybe 3) rallybots and then fill up on staffbots. It is quite easy to set yourself up to get a bonus off of Vengeance and then fight entirely on your own terms. I'm also worried you won't have the power to one round without a proc (or a crit) and Vengeance is the most reliable proc. Let characters get hit once on the enemy phase and then don't let them get hit again.

You can sweep the whole thing with RobinxChrom and their kids if you give them enough favoritism. If you're not willing to do that I'll need to relook at your pairs and see if I can recommend anything.

I could solo with Robin/Chrom/Morgan/Lucina but I did want a slightly more rounded team if that makes sense.

[darkblade2814]

Chrom and Sumia, Lissa and Lon’qu, Miriel and Libra, Sully and Stall, Mirabelle and Ricken, Panne and M!Robin or Gaius, if playing with a F!Robin, F!Robin and Kallem of Priam (interchangeble), Cordelia and Vaike, Nowi and Donnel, Tharja and Kallem or Gregor (if I marry Kallem with F!Robin) Olivia and Henry, Cherche and Virion.

 

I only have Panne as M!Robin's Wifu

[TheSilentChloey]

11 hours ago, darkblade2814 said:

Chrom and Sumia, Lissa and Lon’qu, Miriel and Libra, Sully and Stall, Mirabelle and Ricken, Panne and M!Robin or Gaius, if playing with a F!Robin, F!Robin and Kallem of Priam (interchangeble), Cordelia and Vaike, Nowi and Donnel, Tharja and Kallem or Gregor (if I marry Kallem with F!Robin) Olivia and Henry, Cherche and Virion.

 

I only have Panne as M!Robin's Wifu

Ditch Panne.  You're giving Morgan a constant weakness to beast killer lances which is not good even if she's a god tier unit.  You are better off getting her a gen 2 Mum.  I'd recommend Lucina for Aether as a proc stack or one of the other girls.  Saves you having to bench anyone and gives you an even better Morgan.  Yarne will need either Frederick (Luna) or a father that provides plus hit. So Henry, Virion, Stahl or Gregor work fine

Chrom x Sumia is good default pairing

Lissa x Lon'qu gives you a speedy Owain which is also good, though you can go for Ricken if you want a mag Owain or Stahl who gives Owain Luna (aka reliable proc that isn't astra) but Lon'qu!Owain is fine.

I'd go for Ricken instead of Libra as it gives Laurent Luna and better mag, or Henry.  The best dad here is Gregor however.

Stahl is ok but Kjelle will want Donnel for Galeforce and she's the only unit not as negatively impacted by his mods.  Trust me on that one.

Libra would be fine for Brady as Maribelle gives him the classes he needs.  Plus Brady doesn't need Ricken for anything other than stat mods so he's likely needed elsewhere.

Noire wants Gaius as her father as he gives her sol and Galeforce.  Kellam is a terrible father do not pair him with ANYONE except the bench.

Vaike!Severa is good but she'd be better with Lonnie or Virion or Gregor.

Nah does not want Donnel.  She doesn't need Galeforce and I would suggest Gregor or Vaike for a much better manakete.

Inigo doesn't want Henry, Henry is better for Gerome in this case.  Gerome wants the hit boost and Inigo would do better with a father that gives him luna like Stahl or Ricken.

Gerome as I said before wants the hit boost.  Vaike would be an ok option but dads like Gregor, Henry, Virion or Stahl work here.

 

Of course this is what I have picked up so take it with a grain of salt.  If you are just playing through the game your pairs are fine.

 

So I am doing a HM Apo F!Robin team and have Chrom x Robin but I am at a loss as to who else to pair up.  I an thinking the following:

Lissa x Lon'qu or Lissa x Ricken

Sully x Donnel

Sumia x Henry

Miriel x Gregor

Maribelle x Libra

Cordelia x Virion

Nowi x Stahl or Nowi x Vaike

Tharja x Gaius

Olivia x Ricken or Olivia x Stahl

Cherche x Vaike or Cherche x Frederick (Benching Gerome so it doesn't matter)

Edited December 26, 2017 by TheSilentChloey

[darkblade2814]

10 hours ago, TheSilentChloey said:

Ditch Panne.  You're giving Morgan a constant weakness to beast killer lances which is not good even if she's a god tier unit.  You are better off getting her a gen 2 Mum.  I'd recommend Lucina for Aether as a proc stack or one of the other girls.  Saves you having to bench anyone and gives you an even better Morgan.  Yarne will need either Frederick (Luna) or a father that provides plus hit. So Henry, Virion, Stahl or Gregor work fine

Chrom x Sumia is good default pairing

Lissa x Lon'qu gives you a speedy Owain which is also good, though you can go for Ricken if you want a mag Owain or Stahl who gives Owain Luna (aka reliable proc that isn't astra) but Lon'qu!Owain is fine.

I'd go for Ricken instead of Libra as it gives Laurent Luna and better mag, or Henry.  The best dad here is Gregor however.

Stahl is ok but Kjelle will want Donnel for Galeforce and she's the only unit not as negatively impacted by his mods.  Trust me on that one.

Libra would be fine for Brady as Maribelle gives him the classes he needs.  Plus Brady doesn't need Ricken for anything other than stat mods so he's likely needed elsewhere.

Noire wants Gaius as her father as he gives her sol and Galeforce.  Kellam is a terrible father do not pair him with ANYONE except the bench.

Vaike!Severa is good but she'd be better with Lonnie or Virion or Gregor.

Nah does not want Donnel.  She doesn't need Galeforce and I would suggest Gregor or Vaike for a much better manakete.

Inigo doesn't want Henry, Henry is better for Gerome in this case.  Gerome wants the hit boost and Inigo would do better with a father that gives him luna like Stahl or Ricken.

Gerome as I said before wants the hit boost.  Vaike would be an ok option but dads like Gregor, Henry, Virion or Stahl work here.

 

Of course this is what I have picked up so take it with a grain of salt.  If you are just playing through the game your pairs are fine.

 

So I am doing a HM Apo F!Robin team and have Chrom x Robin but I am at a loss as to who else to pair up.  I an thinking the following:

Lissa x Lon'qu or Lissa x Ricken

Sully x Donnel

Sumia x Henry

Miriel x Gregor

Maribelle x Libra

Cordelia x Virion

Nowi x Stahl or Nowi x Vaike

Tharja x Gaius

Olivia x Ricken or Olivia x Stahl

Cherche x Vaike or Cherche x Frederick (Benching Gerome so it doesn't matter)

Frist, I don't pair Avatars with 2nd generation parennts,

second: I like giving Morgan classes they cannot have normaly (Villager, Taguel and Manakate)

Third: I pair for their supports not for Gameplay

and I did pair Cherche with Virion

but thanks for the sugestions any ways

[TheSilentChloey]

1 hour ago, darkblade2814 said:

Frist, I don't pair Avatars with 2nd generation parennts,

second: I like giving Morgan classes they cannot have normaly (Villager, Taguel and Manakate)

Third: I pair for their supports not for Gameplay

and I did pair Cherche with Virion

but thanks for the sugestions any ways

Then as I said before do what you want.  The advice was for apo.  Though some of it can be applied to the main game as well (Taguel and Villager are awful classes tbh and manakete is no better locking Morgan into wyvern slayer weakness but to each their own "special" classes like that do not appeal to me because they weaken an otherwise OP Morgan).  However this thread is more for apo than main game.  In the main game pretty much anything goes save for Chrom x Maiden.

 

11 hours ago, TheSilentChloey said:

 So I am doing a HM Apo F!Robin team and have Chrom x Robin but I am at a loss as to who else to pair up.  I an thinking the following:

Lissa x Lon'qu or Lissa x Ricken

Sully x Donnel

Sumia x Henry

Miriel x Gregor

Maribelle x Libra

Cordelia x Virion

Nowi x Stahl or Nowi x Vaike

Tharja x Gaius

Olivia x Ricken or Olivia x Stahl

Cherche x Vaike or Cherche x Frederick (Benching Gerome so it doesn't matter)

 

Edited December 26, 2017 by TheSilentChloey

[LetheTheRaptor]

I’m on lunatic+ and wanted two kids with decent magic so I picked chrom. When planning supports I originally decided to use random crappy pairings I liked the supports for but quickly decided against that. Unfortunately I had already locked in FrederickXLissa. I know it’s trash. Is it worth redoing 24+ hours for a less trash Owain? I think he can be a decent gale zerker support for Nah anyways.

 Also any ideas on if these other pairings will work okay? I’m pretty experienced but would like a second opinion.

MU/Chrom (+mag/-def) (locked in)

Frederick/Lissa (locked in)

Ricken/Olivia

Virion/Maribelle

Donnel/Sully

Henry/Sumia (locked in)

Kellam/Cordelia (locked in/wanted a dark flier sevvy)

Stahl/Cherche

Gregor/Panne

Lonqu/Miriel

Gaius/Tharja

Vaike/Nowi

 

Thanks for any suggestions 

[Bane]

21 hours ago, LetheTheRaptor said:

Spoilered for space:

Spoiler

 

I’m on lunatic+ and wanted two kids with decent magic so I picked chrom. When planning supports I originally decided to use random crappy pairings I liked the supports for but quickly decided against that. Unfortunately I had already locked in FrederickXLissa. I know it’s trash. Is it worth redoing 24+ hours for a less trash Owain? I think he can be a decent gale zerker support for Nah anyways.

 Also any ideas on if these other pairings will work okay? I’m pretty experienced but would like a second opinion.

MU/Chrom (+mag/-def) (locked in)

Frederick/Lissa (locked in)

Ricken/Olivia

Virion/Maribelle

Donnel/Sully

Henry/Sumia (locked in)

Kellam/Cordelia (locked in/wanted a dark flier sevvy)

Stahl/Cherche

Gregor/Panne

Lonqu/Miriel

Gaius/Tharja

Vaike/Nowi

 

Thanks for any suggestions 

 

 

What are you optimizing toward with these pairs? Are you going for what will work well within Lunatic+ or are you looking for Apotheosis recommendations? Also, what chapter are you at in the game?

[MeddlingMage]

How's this for pairings:

Robin (+Str/-Luck) x Lucina

Chrom x Sumia

Stahl x Cordelia

Lon'qu x Olivia

Gaius x Tharja

Sully x Donnel

Libra x Lissa

Gregor x Cherche

Ricken x Maribelle

Virion x Panne

Henry x Miriel

Vaike x Nowi

 

 

Edited March 10, 2018 by MeddlingMage

[Bane]

16 hours ago, MeddlingMage said:

Spoiler

 

How's this for pairings:

Robin (+Str/-Luck) x Lucina

Chrom x Sumia

Stahl x Cordelia

Lon'qu x Olivia

Gaius x Tharja

Sully x Donnel

Libra x Lissa

Gregor x Cherche

Ricken x Maribelle

Virion x Panne

Henry x Miriel

Vaike x Nowi

 

 

I'd say move somebody around to give Inigo a proc. Swapping Lon'qu for Stahl or Ricken would be good.

Your can also swap Henry and Gregor if you feel like it.

Overall, a lot of standard pairing, it's pretty good as is. Just get Inigo a proc.

[ChickenWings]

On 11/19/2017 at 2:46 PM, TheSilentChloey said:

So I'm doing lunatic mode and was wondering which pairs are going to be the best for the game.  I have the following pairs planed:

 

~+Mag/-Str Robin x Chrom

~Lissa x Lon'qu (likely) or Libra (?)

~Cordelia x Gregor

~Sumia x Henry

~Maribelle x Libra or Ricken depending on which is easiest.

 

If it's full of grinding, whatever you want, but if it isn't, choose Chrobin and a couple that produces a son, and a couple that produces a daughter. 

If it's no grind:

Lon'qu/Lissa would be hard to do in Lunatic, especially in no grind. LQ wants someone who gives him strength and Lissa wants to be away from battle. It's already off to a difficult start. She and Libra can get along fine, though.

Gregor/Cordelia is fine. His starting class gives the bonuses Cordelia wants to be good.

Henry/Sumia can work ingame, but it takes a VEEEEEEERRRRRYYYY long time for them to marry. Save them the Seed of Trust or make em step on sparkles to speed things up. To keep Sumia from being irrelevant, have her with Freddy until Henry comes along. Resist the urge to marry Sumia to Freddy though!

Ricken is a pain in the booty to train up (though it gets much easier once he becomes a Sage) while Libra comes ready to Rescue Maribelle to his heart. <3 

 

Just realized I replied to an old post...

Edited April 1, 2018 by ChickenWings

[ShinjiFan4ever]

If this is better pisted elsehwere or ina new thread please forgive me - for some reason I'm unaware of im unable to post new topics. Anyway, I am starting a new game of Awakening after having bot played for a good while, and I was wondering if anyone had any good suggestions for my eugenics experiment, erm I mean, for pairings and children units. Its been too long since Ive touched awakening and am far less familiar with it than I am fates. Like I heard MU!F and Crom is good for Lucina and From and Olivia is good for Inigo. What would you guys say would be the most optimal/interesting/fun parent combinations for the children units- when I get to that point? 

[soly]

The first question is always, what are you optimising for? The usual assumption in this thread is "Apotheosis" unless there's reason to think otherwise, which I believe there is. So if you're just going through the main game up to final boss (chapter 25) it shouldn't matter much, though there's a rough "kid tier list" which tells you which kids are better for maingame clearing. No surprises, Morgan is right at the top.

Interesting and fun are subjective, which can make them hard to discuss. Likewise support quality and hair colours.

if you are going up to apotheosis, then here is a general overview of what kid units want from their dads (plus Lucina's mother and Morgan's non-Avatar parent). Exceptions always exist. There are always better options and worse options between parents, and I'm not going into too much detail on which parents are better or worse for each kid.
 

Spoiler

 

Lucina: Wants Galeforce (Avatar, Sumia, Maribelle, Olivia). Wants mother to be combat-useful, because Chrom is good (Avatar > Sumia > Maribelle > Olivia). Has a sibling who also inherits Chrom's genes and wants to make the most out of this inheritance (Sumia > Olivia > Avatar > Maribelle).

Cynthia: Wants to exist > Doesn't want Fred. In that order.

Severa: Wants a finishing class-weaponfaire matchup. Wants good mods, especially speed. Doesn't care about Luna unless you do. Can do lots of specialty setups. Lon'qu, Virion, Gregor, Stahl, Vaike, apparently Ricken, too.

Kjelle: Wants pegasus inheritance for Galeforce + Lancefaire. Will not settle for non-Gale sets. Gaius, Donnel.

Noire: Wants pegasus for Galeforce. Can settle for non-Galeforce sets. Doesn't like Donnel that much. Gaius, Donnel; Vaike, Lon'qu, Gregor, Ricken, Libra, maybe Virion.

Nah: Wants a support set tailored to the galeboy she's marrying, magical support for casters and physical for fighters. Vaike, Gregor, Henry, Donnel, Libra, possible more.

Owain: Wants a stable proc, doesn't want to hurt speed if he can afford not to, prefers magic. Ricken, Libra, Henry, Stahl.

Inigo: Wants a stable proc, doesn't care about speed except maybe in extreme challenge runs, can go physical or magical. Any dad with Luna or Vengeance will serve: Ricken, Stahl, Chrom, Fred, Kellam, Libra, Henry.

Brady: Wants +2 speed dad or more magic. Lon'qu, Virion, Gaius if free; Ricken, Libra, Henry.

Laurent: almost doesn't care what dad he gets. Can do Vantage/Vengeance with Lucina, given Vantage. Lon'qu, Gregor, Stahl, Gaius; almost all other dads are fine even.

Gerome: Wants weaponfaire + finishing class. Prefers Berserker, will settle for Bowfaire Warrior, can do Sage. Henry, Vaike, Gregor, Stahl, Ricken, Virion, Libra for magical.

Yarne: wants +hit. Stahl, Virion, Ricken, Libra, Henry.

Morgan: wants good mods. Aether from Lucina or Chrom!Cynthia if you can manage it.

 

 

[ChickenWings]

Gregor is a good dad for Severa?

 

Pretty sure Nah doesn't want Donnel genes. I've read from so many posts that only Kjelle would be ok with Donnel genes.

 

Also, Cynthia really wants Chrom.  If she can't have Chrom as her dad, make Henry her dad (she gets good mods and can be a great magic user). Gaius wastes his peg knight class and Freddy doesn't give good mods and the classes aren't too good for Cynthia. 

Popular choices for Morgan's parent is Sumia!Lucina, Ricken!Owain, Ricken!Laurent. Vaike!Gerome is excellent physical dad for Morgan.

 

Kellam and/or Freddy are on the bench.

 

I do want to ask, why is Noire ok with not having GF, but Kjelle is?

[soly]

Severa out of the box has Lancefaire but no really good lance classes; Hero but no Swordfaire or Axefaire; plus a stable proc (Vengeance). You want to remedy either of the first two, or give her something like Sniper. Gregor passes her both Swordfaire and Axefaire for her Hero set, and a nice Str mod. He's not the best Severa dad (LQ and Virion are supposed to be the best), but he works. Probably above the halfway mark for Severa dads.

Traditionally, Nah doesn't want Donnel genes. People look at Donnel, see Pegasus, and think "Galeforce inheritance". They look at Donnel!Nah and think "very slow, no stable procs, not a good lead, better to do Gaius!Noire and Donnel!Kjelle and let Nah do what she does best, which is Hard Support." This is more or less true. But Donnel!Nah also has Tomefaire and Dark Flier. If you have a magical Galeboy (eg. Brady) who wants a magical girlfriend with +Spe and Cynthia's not available, Donnel!Nah will serve decently as a hard support or as a soft lead (she still has +1 Mag). Henry would be a better pick - Henry offers positive Mag, Valkyrie, and apparently an interesting critstacking set - but, in my opinion, Donnel is not a trash option. This is an opinion. Feel free to disagree vehemently.

Regarding Cynthia, I said I'd be covering most of the decent options, not that I'd be rating all of them as better or worse. I believe I wrote for Cynthia: "Wants to exist > doesn't want Fred." Which is still true, though not specific (Chrom > Henry > Gaius > Fred would be more specific). Spending Gaius on Cynthia is a massive waste of Pegasus inheritance, but if you close your eyes to the opportunity cost and just look at Gaius!Cynthia herself, you'll notice that she has Astra/Luna procstacking. +6 Spe mod gives her 48 Spe Dark Flier, which is fast enough to take All Stats +2 (or Speed +2) and hit the highest speed benchmark (75 Spe) with a Sage support. It's a pretty impressive waste of Peg inheritance, yes, so I'd never actually recommend it, but if you actually like Gaius!Cynthia for some reason, she's not actually a bad unit. And you can do Donnel!Kjelle and non-Galeforce Noire so it's... not perfect, but it can be done if you want.

To cover Morgan's options in detail requires a lot of space. I should think "Good mods, and if you can swing it, get Aether from Galeforce Lucina or Chrom!Cynthia" is accurate enough. Though if I were writing it now, I'd include "Partner should be combat-competent to complement Avatar", which would rule out Ricken!Noire, for example, as neither Noire nor Avatar-M will have Galeforce. Standout picks include Virion!Yarne, Lon'qu!Severa, and Lon'qu!Laurent, as well as Galeforce-Aether mothers.

Kellam and Fred are usually rated as the game's worst dads. That does not necessarily always condemn them to the bench. Fred is popular for an almost zero opportunity cost high-quality dad for Inigo. If Yarne's missing all of his +Hit dads, Fred can step in for +2 Str and +2 Skl. Noire can apparently take him for some weirdbuild I don't know the exact details of. And Cynthia prefers Fred to nonexistence. As for Kellam, Inigo can take him as a Luna dad with both physical and magic sets (notably gaining Sage). Laurent doesn't care about the speed drop, gets his Str patched out to neutral for Nerdzerker sets, and doesn't lose Mag for Sage, so if Laurent's first-string dads aren't on the table any more, he can afford to settle. Noire inherits Tomefaire if she's going magical hard support and, again, doesn't lose Mag. While I would never recommend Kellam and Fred as first-string dads (and definitely advise against them in challenge runs), they do have their uses; it's hasty to condemn them immediately to the bench.

Kjelle's initial class set is very impressive for a lead unit - out of the box, she has Paladin, Wyvern Lord, and Assassin as finishing classes (and even General, though it's probably outclassed by Wyvern in this scenario), plus Swordfaire, Astra, Luna, and Deliverer on the skills side. There is absolutely nothing any dad can offer her that trumps Pegasus Knight inheritance, which offers Lancefaire for her Paladin, General and Wyvern, plus Galeforce. As well, she has naturally low Str and Mag, inheriting -1/-1 from Sully, and a strong Spe rating which is wasted in a support position. Basically, not getting Galeforce is pretty detrimental to Kjelle.

In contrast, Noire's natural class set includes Sniper, Luna, and Vengeance. That qualifies her to lead even without Galeforce, which means that not getting it isn't really the end of the world. She still has General (highest str female physical class). Inheriting 0/3 Str/Mag from Tharja means she can pull off a damage hard support set, even a physical one, better than Kjelle's -1/-1. Vaike!Noire is a very potent Sniper, or Libra or Ricken!Noire have high damage support Sage sets to back someone like Owain.

Basically, the options Kjelle already have complement Pegasus inheritance very well, while Noire's options are a little more versatile.

[ChickenWings]

An extremely informative and lovely post! I rarely see one go into details about Noire especially. I guess many people just let Gaius be her dad.

Edited April 3, 2018 by ChickenWings

[Bane]

12 hours ago, soly said:

Noire can apparently take him for some weirdbuild I don't know the exact details of.

I gotchu fam,

The deal with Fred!Noire is that it's good for 100% dual strike teams since it gives +2 skill and defender (which is sometimes necessary) ontop of her skill +2 (the skill, not the stat cap). Fred's strength buff also helps because the only class Noire has with enough skill is Sniper. You lose some speed (and galeforce), but when you are guarenteed 6 attacks on an enemy it usually doesn't matter.

I think I was able to work out a Stahl!Owain/Fred!Noire pair for a 100% dual strike team with Assassin/Sniper as the classes. I also vaguely remember that it needed every +skill skill to make it work.

Fred!Noire is niche, but when you automatically give Gaius to Kjelle sometimes you feel like it's better to make Noire a hard-support Sniper rather than drag her down with Donnel. Heck, Fred!Noire can even tag in to sweep mooks and take advantage of her partner's aggressor and she'll still overkill mooks.

[ZantaRay]

I'm currently doing a no grind, pair up, DLC or nostank run on hard/classic. 

Hoping to eventually tackle apotheosis with these same restrictions, excepting no grinding, as I'll need to for skills and stat benchmarks, though I'm almost certainly going to give up at some point and start relaxing the others (I have access to all dlc but want to avoid using it if I can)

First of all, is Apotheosis even reasonably doable (I have limited patience lol) with those restrictions? I know this isn't technically the thread for it, but it affects my pairing choices a lot. 

If I'm doing it with no pair up, I assume all my units will need to be capable of functioning without a dedicated pair up, and support kits become much less valuable. 

In any case, currently I have: 

Locked in (currently at chapter 15): 

Sumia!Lucina
Chrom!Cynthia

Strong Preference (locked in unless you guys can give me a good reason not to): 
Stahl!Severa
Donnel!Kjelle
Gaius!Noire
Lon'qu!Brady

No Parent Yet: 

Nah
Owain
Inigo
Laurent
Gerome
Yarne
Morgan

I don't really have any strong inclinations for these characters, though I have been thinking about who to pair MaMU (+spd-lck) with. 

Is it generally considered more beneficial to have a 3rd gen Morgan, or two 2nd gen Morgans?  

From what I've read, 3rd gen seems to be the preference, due to not leaving any unpaired kids, and the fact that you can get more or less complete sets for everybody without using the avatar. 

Presumably Lucina (or Cynthia, but I'd prefer Lucina) would be optimal for Aether access for Morgan, though does Morgan gain much benefit from aether? Does she gain much from access to any of the special classes? 

Additonally, are there any of the kids that massively benefit from an avatar father? Yes I know they all do, but I assume some benefit more than others, especially with the constraints of no pair up.

[soly]

5 hours ago, ZantaRay said:

I'm currently doing a no grind, pair up, DLC or nostank run on hard/classic. 

Hoping to eventually tackle apotheosis with these same restrictions...

No pair-up, no DLC Apo run? Very interesting, I've never seen a no-pair up run suggested. It's almost definitely doable. But it'll be hellish to actually do. It's going to be analogous to no DLC/no Rally, which is pretty tough already.

Dropping Pair-Up means, first of all, you lose +3 to all stats, as well as +8 in key stats (eg. Hero/Berserker/Dark Flier's +Spe to their partner), up to a massive +10 to Str (Berserker pair-up). Secondly, when you split your units, you lose automatic Dual Strike, which means that you have to position your units with absolute precision next to each other to get the dual strike benefit. That basically immediately removes the utility of Double Galeforce pairs: they're going to struggle to position to Dual Strike with all four (split) attacks (though I think it's still doable if you have 1-2 range). Thirdly, by effectively doubling your combat unit body count, you double the burden on your rescue bots and rally bots. The rally bots will probably no longer be able to get all your units at once. The rescue bots will need to rescue twice the number of units. Which means you want to carry more of both Rally and Rescue bots, which in turn reduces your combat unit count. That could be very troublesome in Waves 4 and 5 when you need to crunch turns to clear the map. And if you choose to give up Rally Def/Rally Res, then some of your units might start dropping below the 30 Def benchmark needed for general survival.

Also, you lose the ability to run low unit Vantage/Vengeance strategies because your support/dual strike partner is targetable by enemies, so you need to find an alternative low-unit strategy setup.

Add to that the fact that you're dropping DLCs as well, which means -10 to all stats from Limit Breaker, -10 Atk to male units from aggressor, -2 more to all stats from Rally Heart, and you have a very scary challenge run.

Is it doable? Almost definitely. If I were you, though, I'd try the no pair-up restriction in an environment with DLC skills and Rallies first (and if you haven't done Apotheosis yet, do it a few times without restrictions to learn the map layout, enemy spawns, and key enemies like Thronie and NS). Figure out Rescue strategies and proper positioning for no pair-up setups. Think about how many combat units you can run, given Rally and Staff support - you might be looking at 3-4 main combat pairs, instead of the usually recommended 4-6.

If you do so, you might need to setup a second save file with different kid pairings when you attempt no pair-up/no DLC.

More general information follows.

On 2nd gen versus 3rd gen Morgan, and non-Morgan benefit from Avatar parentage:

Spoiler

No Avatar-parented child unit significantly exceeds their potential with other dads (or Lucina's mother). In other words, while every kid likes having Avatar as a dad, no kid needs it, and Avatar-kids aren't much better than non-Avatar kids. The exception is lead Nah, but that's a bad idea for a whole host of other reasons, including bad mods for Morgan and the fact that you're going to be benching a girl anyway.

Additionally, Gen 2 Morgan requires a Gen 1 parent, and not a lot of those are really worth taking into Apotheosis (apparently Sumia and Cordelia, Chrom is always good due to Dual Strike+ alone, maybe the other Galeforce mothers with everything on the table). If you talk about restricted Apo runs, the Gen1 parents become even worse. As Avatar is perfectly combat-capable (and in many cases very potent), you don't want to waste him (or her) on a Gen1 unit who can't go into Apo combat. You can think of marrying Gen 1 as trading one of the Gen2 kids for a Gen1 parent in Apo, because that Gen2 kid remains unpaired, while the Gen1 parent is paired off to Avatar. Usually it's a bad trade because Gen 2 > Gen 1 in general.

As such, 3rd Gen Morgan is usually recommended for Apo runs, unless you have some kind of self-imposed restriction or preference. Some people always marry the same unit, for example.

In the general case, it's fine to just say "Pair Avatar with your favourite gen 2 unit unless Nah; plan Asset/Flaw and spouse parentage in advance for best Morgan". Obviously there are better and worse Morgan parents. But in the general case, any properly-fathered kid unit will give you a very good Morgan.

Once you start talking about challenge runs (like No DLC no Pair-Up), though, childrens' mods become much more important, Morgan's most of all. And Morgan's best mods are Gen 3 Morgan setups. Gaining a key amount of speed might be necessary to reach speed benchmarks, for example, or Mag for very specific OHKOs, or even Def for Vengeance setups.

On Aether access for Morgan; included is a rough "Good Morgan Parent" list:

Spoiler

Aether is one of the best skills you can get, which is why Galeforce Lucina and Chrom!Cynthia are usually right at the top of "Best Morgan parent" lists. That does not mean it's a requirement. Just a recommendation.

Morgan parents want (1) to be at least decent units by themselves, worthy of pairing up with the Avatar in combat; and (2) to pass really good mods (or Aether) to Morgan.

As such this is the list of parent!kid setups I would suggest as Morgan parents. I do not suggest that they are all equivalent, only that if you pick this gen2 unit to marry, that this is probably the best dad pick. Not included are Asset/Flaw setups for each kid. Most of them want +Spe/-Def; some can get away with +Str, +Mag or +Skl; but +Spe is basically never bad and only grows in utility as you go down the challenge run setups; the more Speed you can get on Morgan, the more things she can pull off under Challenge scenarios.

Lucina with Galeforce (of which Sumia is probably the best)
Chrom!Cynthia
Lon'qu!Severa
Gaius!Kjelle
Gaius!Noire
Gaius!Nah (who is not a particularly good standalone unit)

Inigo with a proc, except Fred! and Kellam!Inigo (of which Chrom is probably the best)
Ricken!Owain
Lon'qu!Brady
Lon'qu!Laurent
Vaike!Gerome
Virion!Yarne

On speed benchmarks and sources of +Speed:

Spoiler

The major benchmarks you see are 75, 69, 66, 60. You can check out this link for more information on enemy speed in Apo.

75 doubles all units in Apo, including NS and Anna, the two fastest units.
69 doubles Thronie, the 3rd fastest unit.
66 doubles all units except the 4 fastest (above 3 plus this one scrub 62 speed Sage with Forseti in Wave 4), and is not doubled by any units.
60 is not doubled by Thronie and doubles most trash mooks. If you're doing No DLC/No Pair Up, this is the one you need to aim for on as many units as possible.

Sources of Speed:

Limit Breaker: +10
Rally command with DLC: +10 (Rally Speed, Rally Heart, Rally Spectrum)
Rally command without DLC: +8 (except Rally Heart)
Pair Up command: +3 to +10 depending on support unit; +8 is the highest reasonable (Dark Flier, Hero, Berserker); +9 only Assassin and Great Lord, +10 only Swordmaster (bad).
Speed Tonic: +2
Skills: Speed +2, All Stats +2, Defender (All stats +1 while paired up).

Check about 6 posts up for a list of which kids want what from their parents, and which parents give that to the respective kid. Bear in mind that no DLC/no Pair Up qualifies as an "extreme challenge run" so stay away from Fred and Kellam for Inigo. Strongly consider Lon'qu!Severa for her Lancebreaker set (or use another Lancebreaker unit; Morgan can do it). Lancebreaker sets are basically the only reliable way to take on Anna in extreme challenge runs, or you get doubled and die.

[Bane]

So long as you're keeping brave weapons you should still have flexibility in your team composition, but it'll still be tough.

I feel like you should build someone to handle the bosses (especially thronezerker and Anna, you might need someone different for each) and always remember that Snipers with longbows are really good for safe damage.

[ZantaRay]

Oof. From the sounds of this, no one here has done it this. It does make sense, no pair up makes even the main game on hard moderately challenging. That being said, I'm sure I'll be be happy to bash my head against the wall for a little while. Thanks for your advice solv, that and the post above are very useful. Honestly I really like the Stahl/Cordelia support to the point that I would like to do them regardless. What other lancebreaker units would you recommend as strong options? 

One option could be going for as much vv on as many characters as possible, as that way it shouldn't matter as much which of them is attatcked, and galepairs seem a lot worse. 

 

Quick edit: does apo scale down for hard at all? It's the same on all difficulties I assume?

Edited April 4, 2018 by ZantaRay