PAIRINGS The Pairing Thread

[serpentskirt]

@bodybagfor8bucks

I've had the same question a couple of pages back, lol. After playing around in excel I would say that the most close to "in stone" ones are:

Gregor!Laurent

Chrom!Cynthia (and thus Sumia!Lucina) - unless you really want to give Chrom to someone else

Gaius!Kjelle

The following you can shuffle around to adjust Skl values for female leads:

Ricken/Stahl!Gerome

Stahl/Ricken!Yarne

Then just my thoughts about specific guys:

- Inigo really wants at least +2 speed and at least +3 skill as assassin which makes Henry kinda good choice for him as he gives exactly 2 speed and tons of skill;

- Noire just needs any father who'll give her enough skill to match with partner;

- in most cases Nah wants any sniper dad with enough skill;

- Brady is a bit like Inigo - +2 speed and +3 and higher skill.

Edited March 5, 2015 by serpentskirt

[Czar_Yoshi]

I don't like giving Yarne a Sniper dad. He's already a really great support thanks to Panne giving +3 Skl and there aren't any girls who should be taking that level of support- Nah has no GF so she doesn't want him and Noire has base Sniper allowing her to work with a wide range of options.

He's better off taking a midrange father, investing in Atk and then supporting a mid-upper range girl.

[serpentskirt]

Well, there is one girl - Cynthia if you want to keep her falco at 100% DS. But indeed you can as well just go sniper - assassin/hero. So ye, I'll strike him out.

Edited March 5, 2015 by serpentskirt

[Czar_Yoshi]

Falco Cynthia only needs a Sniper with a +4 Skl mod to hit 100% (Just All+2 if Henry, All+2 and Defender if Chrom). Ricken!Yarne can fit that perfectly but the other two are a little overkill.

[Ownagepuffs]

Mezzo, Laurent is a mage. Mages promote to Sage or Dark Knight, not Sorcerer.

[bodybagfor8bucks]

I finally finished my 100% DS team. Please rate my pairings. This is for my Lunatic+ run that i already started but i'm only at chapter 3. These pairings are obviously for Apo.

Both speed and skill tonics and rallies (+10) are included for all calculations for each character. I left out the math but i calculated that all GF units have 100% DS (They are pretty much all at exactly 160 combined skill. The only exception being Kjelle and Inigo) and I only indicated the speed for the GF units. Keep in mind that all these pairings are also meant for post-game fun where I'll end up having everyone in different ending classes.

Sumia!Lucina @ Dark flier (LB/+DS/GF/Luna/Aether) 75 spd
Henry!Owain @ Dread fighter (LB/GF/TF/Agg/*) 72 spd

I had Owain as a sage initially but lucina would not reach 75 spd.

* I'm undecided for Owain's last skill. I was thinking slow burn, vengeance, or AS+2.

FeMU (+spd/-luck) @ Sniper (LB/AS+2/skil+2/GF/luna) 77 spd

Fred!Yarne @ Assassin (LB/AS+2/Agg/Str+2/Dual Guard+)

If my asset was skill, I could remove skill+2 for something else but then I wouldn't reach 75 speed unless i replaced Skl+2 with spd+2.

Yarne!Morgan @ Assassin (LB/GF/AS+2/Skl+2/Luna) 84 spd

Vaike!Nah @ Hero (LB/AF/AS+2/str+2/slow burn)

If FeMU's asset was skill I could replace skl+2 with another skill or change Morgan into a Hero.

Chrom!Cynthia @ Sniper (LB/GF/Skl+2/AS+2/Defender) 79 spd

Gregor!Gerome @ Assassin (LB/AS+2/Agg/SF/str+2)

There is no wiggle room here except Gerome could have a different skill in place of str+2 or SF.

Lon qu!Severa @ Hero (LB/GF/AS+2/SF/Deliverer) 75 spd

Ricken!luarent @ Sniper (LB/Agg/AS+2/Skl+2/BF)

For Severa i was thinking I could switch deliverer for either vengeance or slow burn

Also Severa could be an assassin and then I could also switch out AS+2 for something else

Gaius!kjelle @ Assassin (LB/GF/AS+2/Luna/SF) 78 spd

Stahl!Inigo @ Sniper (LB/GF/AS+2/Skl+2/Luna) 75 spd

Would deliverer (or any other skill) be better than Swordfaire for kjelle?

Virion!Brady @ Sniper (LB/GF/Skl+2/AS+2/Defender) 71 spd

Donnel!Noire @ Sniper (LB/GF/Skl+2/AS+2/BF) 69 spd (Edit: If noire leads, their combined skill is 159)

I like donnel since he gives noire both Armsthrift and galeforce but his -1 skl mod is terrible (Edit: and holds back Noire from reaching 100% DS). I could replace him with kellem so that at least Brady wont need defender, Noire will have 100% DS, galeforce on Noire can be replaced by luna, and she can be an assassin to give both skl and speed pair up bonuses. If noire is an assassin, Brady would have 76 spd and noire would have 73 spd (without GF obviously).

Sumia @ Dark flier (LB/GF/Dual guard+/Luna/TF) 75 spd

Chrom @ Bow knight ( LB/Agg/DS+/BF/+20 hit rate)

I thought about replacing BF with Dual Guard+ on Chrom so that Sumia can replace Dual Guard+ for AS+2 (or any other skill)

If needed, I could edit in the calculations for each characters Skill.

So what do you people think?

Edited March 9, 2015 by bodybagfor8bucks

[Ownagepuffs]

A couple of things.

1) It is hard to make a full team on Lunatic, much less Lunatic+. It's like trying to do a transfers run in Path of Radiance Hard Mode when it is way easier on Normal mode.

2) Drop Dual Guard+. Worthless skill for a consistency team. AS +2 on Sumia would be way better and BF on Chrom is going to do more than DG+ ever will.

[bodybagfor8bucks]

A couple of things.

1) It is hard to make a full team on Lunatic, much less Lunatic+. It's like trying to do a transfers run in Path of Radiance Hard Mode when it is way easier on Normal mode.

2) Drop Dual Guard+. Worthless skill for a consistency team. AS +2 on Sumia would be way better and BF on Chrom is going to do more than DG+ ever will.

I am just going to see how far I get in Lunatic plus without dlc. At some point I will use the dlc to level up my team (Which ever units I have at that moment) just enough to continue but only if I really need to. I'm mostly interested in playing skrims and the dlc on lunatic+ with my 100% DS team. I know that I should focus on 2 - 4 pairings for the main story but post-game I plan on creating and using my 100% DS team. Thanks for your suggestions!

[Ownagepuffs]

Truth be told I've always wanted to do Lunatic+ skirmishes. Their like little apotheosis maps. I can imagine how fun the must be on equal footing (as in no LB/Aggressor).

Best of luck in your L+ run!

[Czar_Yoshi]

I'm seeing Virion!Brady x Donnel!Noire and don't think that will get 100% DS with Noire leading due to no Defender boost. My chart has Virion!Brady at 86 supporting and Noire at 73 leading, and that's one short.

[Yunanuy]

(Sorc also isn't even in Laurent's base class line).

Mezzo, Laurent is a mage. Mages promote to Sage or Dark Knight, not Sorcerer.

A mistake on my part. I think I was reading up on Sorceror Laurent and my mind somehow decided "that's what you have!". I am using Sage Laurent of course.

If you have no experience with/idea what to expect from Apo you're going to be in for a rude awakening if you try to use some of those pairings there.

Namely, everything has 55-99 Lck there so your critstacking Gerome won't work (Henry!Nah is the only unit in the game who can pull off a non-dedicated critstacking build there, though some Laurents can pull off a full dedicated one).

Anyway, if you're not using Morgan then definitely go Avatar x Sumia. Avatar x Nowi in base classes can't really do much in Apo, but Avatar x Sumia can and Cynthia will turn out really good. [...]Having a dedicated boss killer will give the rest of your team a lot more leeway in goofing off.

I've completed Normal Path, I just haven't done Secret Path yet. I've watched quite a few videos, so I know it's an entirely different beast, but yeah. Severa with Lancebreaker is my Anna-slayer. But I'll probably end up with a run where I'll kill her with Yarne.

I know the Taguel class is shit, and IS really messed up when they designed it. I just feel it's such a waste when a unique class appears and you don't use it, so I need SOME way to make Yarne at the minimum decent as a Taguel.

Also, I can see why people try their best to optimize, but I'm not aiming for a solo run of Apotheosis. I don't want it to be "easy". Besides, I'll have my Rescuebots on the ready.

I didn't actually considered how Gerome would perform as a support on Apotheosis however, and it seems Henry!Gerome is the reason some of my pairings are getting gimped. So my biggest question right now is:

If I have Henry available for Cynthia, would Avatar be better used elsewhere? His wife needs to be decent as well, so Nowi is a no-go I guess. My choices then for Avatar placements are then:

Sully (MaMU will lead in this situation)

Sumia <<<<I'm leaning towards Sumia, but my fondness for Cynthia is equal to FemMorgan..

Maribelle

Cordelia

Tharja (MaMU will lead here as well)

I've switched some pairings around, and so what I have now is:

Paladin Chrom!Inigo

Assassin Frederick!Owain

General Donnel!Kjelle (I decided dark-haired Noire wasn't worth it...maybe)

Sage Gregor!Laurent

Dark Flier Avatar!Cynthia (she could eventually run Falcon Knight with AT Gradivus in this case, but I dunno if Rescue is worth losing tomes for)

Sage Henry!Brady (I may just switch Avatar and Henry's places...still unsure, but War Monk Brady with Ignis sounds interesting as well.)

Taguel x!Yarne

Hero Lon'qu!Severa

Manakete Stahl!Nah

Sniper Gaius!Noire

Wyvern Lord Vaike!Gerome (Just for the +STR mod and AF...but something's missing :| )

While I do like Yarne, he is the least of my priorities because of Taguel, and I honestly have no idea how to make him work. The critsupport was basically just a niche...I guess with my set-up I might just have to give him Kellam with DG, Aggressor, AS+2 and Deliverer..or give him Virion and turn him into a breakerbot.

Remaining fathers: Virion, Kellam, Ricken & Libra

What do I do with Yarne?

1) It is hard to make a full team on Lunatic, much less Lunatic+. It's like trying to do a transfers run in Path of Radiance Hard Mode when it is way easier on Normal mode.

How is it any harder to make a full team on Lunatic than on any other difficulty? Grinding? Is it more time-consuming? I always play on Lunatic regardless, so my senses regarding the differences may be a bit dull, but clear to clarify? I'm honestly curious..

EDIT: If it's a matter of lack of DLC then I understand..but if grinding in Normal or Hard is actually more efficient than DLC-grinding, I'm curious as to how.

Edited March 6, 2015 by Mezzo

[astrophys]

Lunatic:

Bonus Box Teams give reduced EXP (1 each unit, I believe) and no weapon experience, if I recall correctly. This does not happen on Hard or Normal.

Risen/Reeking Box skirmishes scale to the number of battles you have fought rather than your location so that they become very strong very quickly; the idea is to make them prohibitively strong to easily beat and grind off of. This does not happen on Normal/Hard.

[bodybagfor8bucks]

I'm seeing Virion!Brady x Donnel!Noire and don't think that will get 100% DS with Noire leading due to no Defender boost. My chart has Virion!Brady at 86 supporting and Noire at 73 leading, and that's one short.

Yeah you're absolutly right. I had my head caught up in the idea that Noire would have Kellem as her father. Donnel!Noire x Virion!Brady has 159 combined skill when Noire leads. I will edit that in. I don't know who is the better father for noire in this case.

Truth be told I've always wanted to do Lunatic+ skirmishes. Their like little apotheosis maps. I can imagine how fun the must be on equal footing (as in no LB/Aggressor).

Best of luck in your L+ run!

That is exactly what I want to do and Thank you!

[ckc22]

I know the Taguel class is shit, and IS really messed up when they designed it. I just feel it's such a waste when a unique class appears and you don't use it, so I need SOME way to make Yarne at the minimum decent as a Taguel. .

While I do like Yarne, he is the least of my priorities because of Taguel, and I honestly have no idea how to make him work. The critsupport was basically just a niche...I guess with my set-up I might just have to give him Kellam with DG, Aggressor, AS+2 and Deliverer..or give him Virion and turn him into a breakerbot.

Remaining fathers: Virion, Kellam, Ricken & Libra

What do I do with Yarne?

I think yarne's best use in taguel is as a DS booster and it gives really nice pairup bonuses (8/7/8 str/skl/spd)

Taguel cap + beaststone+ = 48 skill also tying the highest classes

Out of your fathers I say give him Virion (my usual preference for him anyway)

This gives him a +5 skl mod also.

Run him as taguel with lb/agg/as2/skl2/str2 (check your skill calcs first to see if you need all of it)

All of that will let him contribute 86 skill - a significant portion of the 160 you need for 100% DS. Pair him with a physical unit so probably severa/noire/kjelle. Don't put him with Nah (2 braveless, galeforceless, faireless people sounds super unappealing). And I'd save Lucina for someone else because of DS+. Morgan/Cynthia are more likely fighting magically as grandm/darkfly.

Sidenote: Inigo as a paladin? Huh?

Edited March 6, 2015 by ckc22

[Ownagepuffs]

@Mezzo Cordelia is an option for MaMU. A good one. A very good one.

LQ can go to Yarne if you do Cordy x MaMU.

[Zerosabers]

What would the best pairs, classes, and skills be for a no Limit Breaker Apo run? The avatar has +speed -defense. The only pairings I know I'll be doing are ChromXSumia and Lon'qu/VirionXCordelia. I really don't care about ingame strength since I'll just be playing on hard.

Edited March 6, 2015 by zerosabers

[Ownagepuffs]

There is still a lot of versatility open to you in a no LB run. You can check out Airship Cannon's run for ideas.

Snipers will become 10x more valuable though.

[Czar_Yoshi]

A mistake on my part. I think I was reading up on Sorceror Laurent and my mind somehow decided "that's what you have!". I am using Sage Laurent of course.

I've completed Normal Path, I just haven't done Secret Path yet. I've watched quite a few videos, so I know it's an entirely different beast, but yeah. Severa with Lancebreaker is my Anna-slayer. But I'll probably end up with a run where I'll kill her with Yarne.

The main differences between Normal and Secret are that there are no fast enemies in Normal (it's perfectly reasonable to expect to double everything bar one or two with just LB, no pairup and a low Spd mod) and Def actually does something because there are no Braves, Luna+ or Counter and Atk is a good 20 lower on most foes so you can expect to tank. For comparison's sake I've got a decently reliable clear of N.Apo using nothing but a completely 100% untouched base Chrom and the stuff he can find in the Convoy, whereas you need a lot more stuff for Secret.

Severa with Lancebreaker works against Anna if you know you're going to be doubled and can't do anything about it except tilt the RNG odds in your favor as much as possible. This mainly occurs in extreme challenge runs where your stats will be >20 less than normal- actually surviving her is almost never an issue unless engaging at 1-range since she never uses that Brave Lance unless you can't retaliate at 1-range. The actual Bosses you should be worries about killing are Wave 2's Nightmare Sniper who is unsurvivable through defense alone- you need to take him out before he can attack- and Wave 4's Thronie who is the tankiest enemy in the game and capable of 2-shotting any unit (1 with Counter damage). Having a bosskiller there basically involves piling on as much damage as possible very quickly.

Taguel is completely unfixable in Apo. You can bring him but his pair is always going to be the one you save for the "easy kills" that don't appear as often as you'd like. The only way to make him not comparatively useless is to bring everyone else down to his level and ban Braves, which could create issues with the above two bosses if you're not specially equipped for them- and even if you do that he'll be a good 20 Atk below other hard supports due to effectively not having a weapon.

Henry is actually pretty good for Gerome if you're just going for damage. LB/Agg/Axefaire/All+2/Hex or Anathema will see him doing very well in terms of damage output- his only concern might be giving lackluster pairup bonuses, but there's nothing anyone can do to help him with that. If you do give Henry to Cynthia though, Avatar definitely wants to go with Cordelia. She's the best equipped out of those to be in a pair with him, and like Sumia their base classes are both pretty good and compliment each other well.

Something to keep in mind when packing Breakers in Apo is that Hawkeye is everywhere. You won't see much use of using them unless you've got specific enemies in mind that you want to dodge (or just care about the +Hit boost, which shouldn't happen here).

Lunatic: ingame enemies grow too fast and give too little exp to make training more than five pairs viable. Postgame training on Risen is really hard and training on Spotpass is really slow, and even with DLC your internal level caps at 50 instead of 30 (Hard) or 20 (Normal) causing your exp gain to absolutely tank after your second promoted reclass. Many of the DLC maps also get huge stat boosts from Lunatic, so things like grinding Limit Break will be harder and take more preparation, too. Normal is the best mode for grinding because units always gain tons of exp even after multiple reclasses- only do Lunatic for bragging rights (not too important), or if you want the Lunatic+ Risen available as an extra challenge option that can take most stuff you get postgame and return a good fight.

[Yunanuy]

I think yarne's best use in taguel is as a DS booster and it gives really nice pairup bonuses (8/7/8 str/skl/spd)

[...]

All of that will let him contribute 86 skill - a significant portion of the 160 you need for 100% DS.

Sidenote: Inigo as a paladin? Huh?

I REALLY like this idea! Virion!Yarne it is!

With my pairings+rallies, Donnel!Kjelle hits 149, LQ!Severa 159 (Skl+2 can honestly be replaced for Prescience, HR+20 or a breaker) and Gaius!Noire hits 156 - if I did the math right. I might pair him up with Severa or Noire, even though Kjelle would really like the speed.

Inigo for some reason I can only stand if he's a paladin... Inigo as a Hero or Bowknight just seems weird to me. I dunno why. I also usually use him (or Gerome) for ferrying Kjelle and Severa.

@Mezzo Cordelia is an option for MaMU. A good one. A very good one.

LQ can go to Yarne if you do Cordy x MaMU.

Hmm.. I like this as well! Only I think I'll give Lon'qu to Brady in that case, as I've already settled for Virion!Yarne. I'm still a bit torn between giving Henry to Sumia or Gerome though.

[...]

The actual Bosses you should be worried about killing are Wave 2's Nightmare Sniper who is unsurvivable through defense alone- you need to take him out before he can attack- and Wave 4's Thronie who is the tankiest enemy in the game and capable of 2-shotting any unit (1 with Counter damage). Having a bosskiller there basically involves piling on as much damage as possible very quickly.

• Taguel is completely unfixable in Apo. You can bring him but his pair is always going to be the one you save for the "easy kills" that don't appear as often as you'd like.

Henry is actually pretty good for Gerome if you're just going for damage. LB/Agg/Axefaire/All+2/Hex or Anathema will see him doing very well in terms of damage output- his only concern might be giving lackluster pairup bonuses, but there's nothing anyone can do to help him with that. If you do give Henry to Cynthia though, Avatar definitely wants to go with Cordelia. She's the best equipped out of those to be in a pair with him, and like Sumia their base classes are both pretty good and compliment each other well.

Something to keep in mind when packing Breakers in Apo is that Hawkeye is everywhere. You won't see much use of using them unless you've got specific enemies in mind that you want to dodge (or just care about the +Hit boost, which shouldn't happen here). I know... :/ which is why the breaker on Severa is only specifically for Anna.

Hmm...I'll have to look over the enemy data to figure something out. I'll probably just support SeveraxInigo/Owain with Longbow NoirexYarne. Does anyone ever use Mire in Apo?

• Well, it's not like I'm planning on actually relying on Yarne to win Apo for me, haha..I just want him to contribute in some ways. Once I do get to finishing the Secret Path, I'll try to do a run while killing Anna with him for the lolz.

As for Henry!Gerome, their one of my preferable pairings (so I'm still unsure if I wanna give him away), and your setup is actually what I use! I used to pair him with VVW Vaike!Severa or Gregor!Laurent (with Dual Support+ instead of AS+2). I'm not expecting to crit much in Apo though.

Now, if I do give Henry to Cynthia, this is the setup:

Paladin Chrom!Inigo (Great Lord Lucina for anyone wondering...)

Assassin Frederick!Owain

General Donnel!Kjelle (Might still switch Donnel with Gaius though...still undecided which of them want AT more)

Sage Gregor!Laurent

Dark Flier Henry!Cynthia

Sage Lon'qu!Brady

Taguel Virion!Yarne

Hero Avatar!Severa

Manakete Stahl!Nah

Sniper Gaius!Noire (Noire wants AT for Double Bow, but she can survive with forged Longbows)

Wyvern Lord Vaike!Gerome (He'll probably run Aggressor/Axefaire/AS+2 and Deliverer/Strength+2/Support+)

Kellam, Ricken and Libra are left.

[...]internal level caps at 50 instead of 30 (Hard) or 20 (Normal) causing your exp gain to absolutely tank after your second promoted reclass.

I had completely forgotten about internal levels... I feel like I've wasted so much time now. *sigh* Oh well, the story has been somewhat more enjoyable anyways. I have a L+ save and the Risen however ARE pretty cool to fight against, I just don't like it much because my pairings are pretty lackluster...

OH also, difficulty actually affects The Future Past DLC, making it a bit more enjoyable...

Edited March 6, 2015 by Mezzo

[Czar_Yoshi]

Yeah there are five Shadowgift Dark Fliers with Mire in wave 4 (74 Atk). Annoying to approach safely without either a Restank or enough Rescue to get 5 KOes worth of Galepairs to cover 20 spaces and reach them. You can try pulling them but their range tends to overlap with some dangerous Berserkers that you won't want to wait to dispatch as it's a timed map and your team will already be very spread out.

Yarne can KO Anna and everything else, and even be your MVP if you just let him out of Taguel. He's got the best physical modifiers out of any child bar his own Morgan and a perfect class set with Virion or Stahl as a father.

[astrophys]

Speaking about Male MU/Avatar x Cordelia pairings, seeing that its already come up…..

Perhaps we could discuses the class combinations that they should run in pair-up with each other.

Naturally, +Mag/-Def or +Spd/-Def are generally considered some of the more "optimal" asset and flaws.

But this time with respect to roleplaying how I wanted to portray my Avatar I went with +Mag/-Str. I'm planning to do Secret Route Apotheosis on this file.

I've actually cleared Secret Apotheosis before with Avatar x Cordelia (and their children and said children's husbands) using +Mag/-Skl.

Now back when I used the +Mag/-Skl Avatar with Cordy on Secret Route I had had them as a Grandmaster and a Dark Flier. This was because a combination of Cordelia's speed mods, the Grandmaster's pair-up bonus giving a combined +7 to speed, Limit Breaker, Rallies, Tonics, and All Stats+2 (which could have also been accomplished by Cordy's own Speed+2) brought her her to 75 speed (42+2+7+2+10+10+2. Of course, this is the threshold needed to double everything, although to be honest only something like 3 enemies need such a speed to be doubled; I could double the rest at 69 speed.

Said pair-up also boosted Cordy's skill, Magic (+7), and Strength (+7).

Now, +Mag/-Skl is almost the same as +Mag/-Str; it just switches 2 points penalized in skill for two points penalized in strength.

I was thinking about the merits of other setups like Dark Flier + Sage (one of the classic cookie-cutter setups). Gives an extra +2 to Cordy's magic and the same amount of skill. Sage also has higher skill than Grandmaster and is more accurate. It gives up the extra strength, but to be honest most of my attacking in Apotheosis was magic. It also doesn't make Cordy hit 75 speed; it reaches 69 before All+2 and could hit up to 71 with it (which admittedly is within the range of a surge of Speed and whatever putting it up to 75, but those are too unreliable to really consider seriously). But still, 69 is enough to double most things (Anna and Nightmare Snipers being the exceptions).

Sage also means that the Avatar can do rescue utility if Cordy cannot get into range to attack.

Other than doing stuff like that the Avatar is going to play hard support to her.

What do you guys think?

Which build, the Dark Flier/Grandmaster I've done before, the Dark Flier/Sage build that I'm contemplating, so some other build.

I admit that I really love using Cordelia as a Sorcerer outside of Apo (for the appearance and the Armsthrift+Sol or Vengeance Aversatanking), but I admit that its not really as suited to Apotheosis because of its lower skill, speed, and movement, plus Def being somewhat of a dump stat. I mean, of course, I imagine it would still WORK, but maybe not as effectively.

But again, what are your thoughts on the matter of the classes that Cordelia and Avatar should use together in pair-up.

[Czar_Yoshi]

I admit that I really love using Cordelia as a Sorcerer outside of Apo (for the appearance and the Armsthrift+Sol or Vengeance Aversatanking)

I believe that's actually a flaw there.

Anyway both GM and Sage supporting DF can work well. GM has more "canon" appeal but the real reason to go Sage would be for the +6 supporting Mag. Either way though they'll both be a strong pair that pulls their weight due to not really missing anything.

A note about what Avatar x Cordelia's Spd mods mean for kids: going +2 will leave them with +5, which is great for Wyvern with All+2. Unfortunately +Mag doesn't match up with Wyvern's physical tendencies, but it will also let them hit 75 in DK with a +3 support (likely Hero) without All+2 which does match their mods. Unfortunately it's not enough to hit 75 in any magical class except Valkyrie with a +0 pairup and All+2 without going +Spd- so you could also consider Valk/All+2 on them.

[Zerosabers]

There is still a lot of versatility open to you in a no LB run. You can check out Airship Cannon's run for ideas.

Snipers will become 10x more valuable though.

I checked out Airship's run and are these pairings good?

Sumia!Lucina sniper

Henry!Owain I don't know if Sage or Dreadfighter would be better

Libra!Inigo Sage

Ricken!Brady Sage

Gaius!Kjelle Bride

Chrom!Cynthia Sniper

Virion!Severa Sniper

Stahl!Gerome Wyvern Lord maybe

Lucina!Morgan Sniper

Lon'qu!Yarne Berserker

Gregor!Laurent Sage

Donnel!Noire Bride

Vaike!Nah Manakete or maybe something faster

[astrophys]

I believe that's actually a flaw there.

Hey, I just like the skimpy/sexy Sorcerer robes that it gives Cordelia; its a fanservice consideration (it even gives her a bikini in Summer Scramble). But the Pegasus Knight outfits (with the skirt, high boots and garters) look pretty nice too in all fairness.

But overall, a good set of points. You're right, of course, that Sage has +6 magic over Grandmaster, which is one of its major appeals.

But you raise interesting points about using Dark Knight and Valkyrie. Actually, now that I think of it, I think Morgan WAS a Valkyrie last time I did Apotheosis. But I hadn't really given much thought to Dark Knight; an interesting idea. While it does give +magic and +movement, it doesn't give speed or skill bonuses and its defense bonuses aren't that useful on Apotheosis. But then again the bonuses that a class gives aren't relevant while they're in the lead.

[Ownagepuffs]

@zerosabers

Those are good. Vaike!Nah mainly goes Hero. Stahl!Gerome usually goes warrior. Virion!Severa's main proc is vengeance. Vengeance is harder to setup with snipers. Bow Knight is worth considering. In a no dlc scenario, Zerkers really want +Hit. Consider putting Ricken on Owain, LQ on Brady, and Henry on Yarne. Gregor!Laurent likes Crit builds, so consider Sorc.

@astrophys

So I don't know if you've tried it yet, but Dread Fighter is also a strong compliment to Dark Flier. It is the only other class aside from grandmaster that can give +magic and +speed on pair up. Dread Fighter is idiot proof.