PAIRINGS The Pairing Thread

[PM ME MARIANNE ART]

44 Spd? Have you got a Mag/Res flaw? He should have 45 (38+7+10+10+8+2 =75), and Hero Nah will give +8 total.

If you need a bit more Spd and don't want to sacrifice your Mov, that's what Paladin is for.

Severa and Kjelle's husbands are pretty swappable. The only reason you wouldn't want to is if Kjelle is a Paladin and her +Spd bonus lets Inigo hit a threshold (he's a galeboy so he'll be coming up front, Yarne never will). Of course, a Wyvern with All+2 will have much stronger Dual Strikes than a Paladin without, so there's a good reason to give the Galeboy a Wyvern too. Yeah, you can swap them however you like.

You do get two pairs of Boots and there's no benefit to keeping them unused. If you have enough 8-Mov units that you can use them to get your entire team to 8 Mov, I recommend using them that way. If you can't and will have 6-Mov units regardless, then just use them on units you'll want to be using more often (probably double Galepairs and/or AT units).

I believe I put in the flaw as resistance, and that gave him 44 speed, but with a defense flaw he had 45. I'm lost, but it seems like that defense flaw will help a lot in the long run. So then with Nah he should be fine.

EDIT: Was late to the party LOL but I'll leave this here anyways

Because you married 1st gen, one of the kids is gonna be forever alone. That's just an unfortunate fact. Gerome will just have to sit it out, which is unfortunate. In that case, give Henry to Brady I guess, since Gerome's not going to be doing anything?

Lucina can certainly run Dark Flier, but Sniper x Sage is still pretty good too, and Sumia!Lucina is fast enough that she hits 69 Speed (doubling up to Helswath Berserkers) with a Sage partner.

If you want to run Dark Flier Lucina, I'd honestly recommend giving her Brady and giving Laurent to Noire, since Noire's performance as the Support is going to be worse due to lacking Tomefaire.

Everything else is great :D

With regards to the Wyvern Lord x Berserker thing, it's because Wyvern Lords have lower SPD caps, so the extra +8 SPD granted by Berserkers is pretty handy, and the damage output is insane thanks to Berserkers' +10 STR and both class' high STR caps.

Assuming Severa is running AS+2, she'll hit 75 Speed (43 base + 2 (AS+2) + 10 (Limit Breaker) + 10 (rallies) + 2 (tonics) + 8 (Pair Up) = 75), allowing her to double everything in Apotheosis. DS% will be a little low, but realistically you still kill most things even if you whiff one.

Okay that's fine. I think it works out better on the preference end, since I really wanted Inigo to participate and I don't like Gerome. Also I can give Frederick to Cherche just for lolz because that's one of my favorite pairings for both of them. I'm just happy I get to use blonde Inigo :D

Thanks for all the help guys, you'll probably be seeing me again when it comes time for that run

[Czar_Yoshi]

Wyvern Lord also fairs better if she has Discipline (inherited or through Cavalier). I tend to stick to Chrom's class selection even over dark flier though. Paladin and Bow Knight seem to be the safest picks, with Wyvern Lord (or Sumia's Dark flier) being more aggressive picks.

Yeah that's why I always go Cav, Discipline is a fantastic skill for getting going quickly. I haven't used BK too much outside Lunatic+ and Apo, but it's probably a good option. If I ever get around to doing Chrom x Sully again (vanilla Lunatic) I'll definitely try it.

I believe I put in the flaw as resistance, and that gave him 44 speed, but with a defense flaw he had 45. I'm lost, but it seems like that defense flaw will help a lot in the long run. So then with Nah he should be fine.

Okay that's fine. I think it works out better on the preference end, since I really wanted Inigo to participate and I don't like Gerome. Also I can give Frederick to Cherche just for lolz because that's one of my favorite pairings for both of them. I'm just happy I get to use blonde Inigo :D

Thanks for all the help guys, you'll probably be seeing me again when it comes time for that run

Assets and flaws boost/lower other stats besides just the one they're labeled as (full table here). So -Res will lower your Spd by 1, which is unfortunately just enough that Nah needs to upgrade to Assassin to get you to 75... And she doesn't have either Faire for it with Vaike. If you want to stick with -Res, change Nah to a General instead- you'll lose 5 Spd over Hero, which will put you perfectly at the next threshold down while giving +8 Atk.

Fun fact: I've heard rumors that Fred x Cherche was started as a joke by Endgame to troll bandwagoners, and it still hasn't been cleaned up.

No problem and gl with your run.

[Ownagepuffs]

Lucina hits Lances pretty reliably though, assuming you've adequately trained her parents. Rapier has 90 base hit, Lucina has charm, and pair up boosts hit rate. I see Quick Burn as more for when Wyverns start showing up with Swordbreaker, which is like.... C19?

I keep Lucina in her Lord tree for the pair up bonuses. She's a great avoid booster. The +Spd makes it easier for whoever she is supporting to double, as well. I have a hard time seeing her in a not sword using class since PF is so ridiculous.

By the time you set up your galeforce shenanigans, I'm already done with the game and can do something else.

Earlygame stability is all that matters. Quick Burn is good in that it lets you reliably hit lances, even with base Lucina. The fact that you believe I'm taking Quick Burn to try to avoid tank with a unit which has trash stats shows how clueless misguided you are.

Edited for political correctness.

Which unit has trash stats? Sully? Her stats are fine. You've got to ease up on not-Robin units, otherwise you'll never know what they are capable of.

[Nicholai]

+Mag is an option, but they'd be limited to Valkyrie (Dark Flier misses out on 69 Speed threshold with Sages).

What are the important thresholds that need to be met for apo? I'm seeing 69 and 75 for speed, and str/mag are supplemented by DS agg/skills. Speed threshold would end up being like 65 w/ sage pairup or 66 if S rank. So with rallies and tonics can't most things hit the speed thresholds?

[burgerkong]

What are the important thresholds that need to be met for apo? I'm seeing 69 and 75 for speed, and str/mag are supplemented by DS agg/skills. Speed threshold would end up being like 65 w/ sage pairup or 66 if S rank. So with rallies and tonics can't most things hit the speed thresholds?

75 Speed is to double Anna & the 2 Nightmare Snipers (Wave 2 boss and Wave 5) all of whom have 70 Speed

69 Speed is to double the beefy Helswath Berserkers

66 is to avoid being doubled by Anna / Nightmare Sniper

65 is EDIT: to double something or other

There's obviously more, but I generally don't go any lower than 65, and try to achieve 69 at least if possible

For Avatar!Nah with +Mag/-Def asset flaw as a Dark Flier, her Speed ends up as:

42 (base Dark Flier Speed cap) + 1 (mods) + 10 (Limit Breaker) + 10 (rallies) + 2 (tonics) + 3 (Sage Pair Up) = 68 Speed, you're 1 off the 69 threshold to double Helswath Berserkers.

Running AS+2 is an option, but Valkyrie naturally has 1 more Speed and gives you more skill slots to run what you want.

Hit is also fairly important, especially for the Support units since they don't get the +15 hit from S-Support bonus.

Anna for example has 157 avoid on her throne, Helswath Berserker has 148 avoid on his throne, etc. These are the highest in Apo I think

Remember that you can't stack tonics (+2 is the highest you get from them).

Edited May 29, 2015 by burgerkong

[astrophys]

Helswath Berserkers have 64 speed, right? Then you only need 60 speed to avoid being doubled by them.

So even without DLCs, tonics + rally spectrum + rally heart + generic pair-up gives 2+4+4+3 = +13 speed.

So even a 47 speed character (example: Dark Flier or Sage with +5 speed modifier [like Sumia!Lucina] or a 40 speed class with Speed +2 and the same +5 modifier) can at least avoid being doubled by the Berskerer (and double a bunch of the foes who have 55 speed).

[Nicholai]

So even without DLCs, tonics + rally spectrum + rally heart + generic pair-up gives 2+4+4+3 = +13 speed.

Bride is a DLC class, though.

[astrophys]

Oh, I meant Rally Speed. Typo.

[burgerkong]

Helswath Berserkers have 64 speed, right? Then you only need 60 speed to avoid being doubled by them.

So even without DLCs, tonics + rally spectrum + rally heart + generic pair-up gives 2+4+4+3 = +13 speed.

So even a 47 speed character (example: Dark Flier or Sage with +5 speed modifier [like Sumia!Lucina] or a 40 speed class with Speed +2 and the same +5 modifier) can at least avoid being doubled by the Berskerer (and double a bunch of the foes who have 55 speed).

Whoops I'm stupid lulz

Forget what 65 Speed doubles then :(

EDIT: Oh its the Invincisorc (Wave 3 boss?)

Edited May 29, 2015 by burgerkong

[Nicholai]

How many characters even reliably hit 75? I'm feeling like Morgan and Lucina could if they had the right pairup partners. Morgan might be able to hit it @ DF w/ all rallies and =spd support. Rallies stack and proc en masse, right? You max out at 74 w/ Sumia!Lucina if you play her as a DF, so do most people run her as a sniper with agg S rank berserker support?

[Vascela]

There's tons of niche skills you probably overlook to bolster stats. Defender, Spd +2, or even more specific pair ups.

Or you can use an alternative strat that doesn't use Spd.

[Nicholai]

I feel like its best to have a Lucina that can double the final boss, because she has 100% DS. Is that wrong? AS +2 could get it to 76, but sniper Lucina gets to 75 with a berserker S support (assuming you go Sumia!Lucina, you could probably get 75 if you paired Chrom with the Avatar and had +Spd).

Edited May 29, 2015 by Nicholai

[Vascela]

There is no "right" and "wrong." It's matter of comfort in your playstyle.

[Czar_Yoshi]

What are the important thresholds that need to be met for apo? I'm seeing 69 and 75 for speed, and str/mag are supplemented by DS agg/skills. Speed threshold would end up being like 65 w/ sage pairup or 66 if S rank. So with rallies and tonics can't most things hit the speed thresholds?

The ones that haven't been covered so far are 220 Hit (100 listed on all non-Boss mooks before WTD) and 160 combined Skl (100% DS). The former is something you really should be aiming for (~5 off is fine, 20 or more off is bad), the latter can only be gotten through dedication except in very rare circumstances so don't sweat it if you don't have any units who can.

Forget what 65 Speed doubles then :(

EDIT: Oh its the Invincisorc (Wave 3 boss?)

It's not a significant threshold. You do get Invincisorc but they're not tanky enough to warrant any investment dedicated to them alone, and stopping at 65 when you could go on to 66 is kind of silly.

The next significant one below 66 is 60, which prevents you from being doubled by Thronie (the Helswath Berserkers), which is a guaranteed 2HKO on every single unit you would want to field for Apo. Falling below 60 also means you start dropping doubles on standard mooks, which can be annoying.

How many characters even reliably hit 75?

Every single one of them. The better units are those who can get there without making any sacrifices. Class choice and father Spd mods are very important for this. Here's a few different common ways to get various Spd mods to 75:

+3: Paladin/Sniper with All+2 and a +3 support, Hero/Sage/Dark Flier with no All+2 and a +3 support, Dark Flier with All+2 and a Dread Fighter support.

Notable +3 units: Chrom x Olivia's kids, +Spd Avatar x Nowi's kids, Virion!Brady, Ricken!Severa.

+4: Wyvern with All+2 and an Assassin support, Paladin/Sniper with no All+2 and an Assassin support, Bow Knight with no All+2 and a +3 support, Hero with no All+2 and a Paladin support, Falco with All+2 and a +0 support, Assassin with no All+2 and a +0 support.

Notable +4 units: Avatar-F, Gaius/Virion!Noire, Vaike!Severa, +Str/Skl Gregor!Yarne!Morgan.

+5: Wyvern with All+2 and a +3 support, Paladin/Sniper with no All+2 and a +3 support, Valkyrie with All+2 and a +0 support, Dark Flier with no All+2 and a Dread Fighter support.

Notable +5 units: Chrom x Sumia's kids, +Str/Skl Sumia!Lucina!Morgan, Virion!Severa, Gaius!Kjelle.

+6: Wyvern with All+2 and a Paladin support or no All+2 and an Assassin support, Hero/Dark Flier with All+2 and a +0 support, GK with All+2 and a +3 support.

Notable +6 units: Lon'qu!Severa, Gaius!Kjelle, +Spd Avatar x Chrom's kids.

+7: Wyvern with no All+2 and a +3 support, Valkyrie with no All+2 and a +0 support, General with All+2 and an Assassin support.

Notable +7 units: +Mag Sumia!Lucina!Morgan, +Spd Avatar x Cordelia's kids.

The two most important thresholds in there are +5 and +7. Hitting +5 officially qualifies you as fast and gives you a lot more freedom with Snipers, Wyverns and Paladins, and Valkyrie in the case of Morgan (since it's pretty much her personal class). +7 is officially Morgan tier and only Avatar's children can get in- which does include kids from any +2 or better mother (coughCordeliacough). Funny how one of the children who's already top tier benefits the most from Avatar inheritance. Actually getting +7 lets you throw around powerful 8-Mov classes with no extra investment whatsoever, freeing up plenty of room for a Faire+Procstack.

If your Spd mod is below +3 though, you're not very fast and are better off aiming for 69 and shoring up your offenses instead. Notable slow units include non-+Spd Avatar-F, all Owains, all non-Chrom Inigos, Nah and anyone fathered by Donnel.

Spd never matters on Laurent, Yarne and Gerome, except in the event you want any of them to father Morgan. In similar fashion it never matters on Avatar-M, except he always has Morgan so don't take less than she wants (always aim for +5 or better for her).

Edited May 30, 2015 by Czar_Yoshi

[Nicholai]

Thanks for all the maths, Yoshi. Anything beyond +7 is waste, then?

[burgerkong]

Thanks for all the maths, Yoshi. Anything beyond +7 is waste, then?

Technically no, it does give you more flexibility. For example, a Wyvern Lord with +8 Speed could run with a Paladin partner and still hit 75 Speed thanks to the extra point of Speed. Berserkers are popular as dedicated Supports though.

However, say you already have a class in mind for the character. If they hit 50 Speed in their desired class before Limit Breaker, Rallies, etc., they're guaranteed to hit 75 Speed regardless of Pair Up. It's at that point that any extra Speed becomes overkill.

After a certain point it becomes impractical or outright impossible for slower classes though. The extreme example would be the +15 Speed mod would be required to allow Generals to achieve 75 Speed with a +0 Speed Pair Up, but that's impossible (+11 is technically possible by going +Speed & marrying Lon'qu!Yarne, but it's a crappy pairing for Yarne).

Edited May 30, 2015 by burgerkong

[Czar_Yoshi]

There's still stuff you can do with it but in general +7 is enough to use all the best classes, and classes that benefit from >+7 have other things holding them back as well that the +7/5 classes don't. I mean, +7 gives you procstacking Wyverns and Valkyries, there's not much better you can do.

[Alastor15243]

Valkyrie in the case of Morgan (since it's pretty much her personal class).

Yeah I noticed that too. Are there any galegirls other than Morgan and Henry!Cynthia who have access to Valkyrie and use it well, or is it really pretty much exclusive to Morgan?

[Czar_Yoshi]

Henry!Cynthia and Henry!Nah are too slow to hit 75 with it. Morgan-F (and her siblings) are the only children who can get it with a +5 Spd mod, period, never mind proc/GF/TF.

Nah still uses it as a +Spd/Mag support class, but for all intents and purposes it's Morgan's personal class.

...I really wish Virion's Mage became Troubador for female inheritance. He could still pass down Tomefaire, and it would let Virion!Severa fill her secondary role as a magic user that much better. It would affect pretty much her only (and Nah and Noire, who would benefit too), has no downsides for any of them (Severa and Noire already have DK and don't want to be Sages anyway), and would be cool in general.

And while we're on balance wishes, I wish Dread Fighter had 42 Mag. That would put it on par with Dark Flier and Valk, and make it an actually appealing option for getting +5 DFs to 75 without All+2. As-is, it does that, but at the cost of unacceptably weak DSes (I know it's only the same difference as between Berserker and Hero, but physical weapons have much higher mt and Str-based classes typically have more Str than Mag classes have Mag, so it hurts far more).

Edited May 30, 2015 by Czar_Yoshi

[Alastor15243]

Henry!Cynthia and Henry!Nah are too slow to hit 75 with it. Morgan-F (and her siblings) are the only children who can get it with a +5 Spd mod, period, never mind proc/GF/TF.

Nah still uses it as a +Spd/Mag support class, but for all intents and purposes it's Morgan's personal class.

Fair enough. Pity Aversa!Morgan can't reach a +5 speed mod with just a Magic asset.

[Nicholai]

How do we get to 25 w/ temp boosts? Tonics, rallies, and LB only gets to 22. Is this including generic pairup bonuses?

Edited May 30, 2015 by Nicholai

[Czar_Yoshi]

For example, 40(Sniper base) +5(mods) +20(LB/Rally) +8(Berserker support- Berserkers give a total of 3+2+3) +2(tonic) =75.

[isetrh]

If Dread Fighters had 42 Magic, there wouldn't be much point to Grandmasters. I agree that their Magic is unappealing though.

With a +8 Speed mod you could swap Valkyrie for Dark Flier for a small stat difference. Maybe on +Speed Avatar x Sumia kids. I don't know if that would be worth anything. Kind of boring if you already have a bunch of Dark Fliers.

[Czar_Yoshi]

GM doesn't suffer from being outshone by Dread Fighter, it suffers from being outshone by Paladin. I don't think giving DF extra Mag would have too much of an impact on GM's viability.

[Alastor15243]

GM doesn't suffer from being outshone by Dread Fighter, it suffers from being outshone by Paladin. I don't think giving DF extra Mag would have too much of an impact on GM's viability.

Plus, even if DF had better magic, Tactician's pairup bonuses are absolutely fantastic. Literally the best concievable pair up bonuses you could possibly ask for for apotheosis, especially for units that use magic and physical attacks.