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As a male going +Speed in the first generation, you'd do well to go with Cordelia…. you'll end up with +5 skill and +7 speed, assuming you don't take an asset or flaw that lowers theses.

Sully technically does the same thing, but she lacks Galeforce, so she's not as useful of a wife to the Avatar. The Avatar would grant her daughter access to Galeforce, but Donnel and Gaius are also already capable of doing that and Nah from Nowi is often considered either wasteful or a lost cause.

+Mag/-Def would probably work fine with Lucina… very nicely, actually.

+Mag/-Def or +Spd/-Def are popular postgame setups, depending on how you plan to be attacking, who you plan on marrying, and what thresholds you're trying to reach.

As for the Gerome/Avatar and Berserker/magic issues with a Lucina, such as a Sniper Lucina.

Obviously, Berserker will make the Sniper hit much harder and have better speed. Magical units can let the Sniper lead leverage their dual strikes, that said, to enable magical attacking (that can use a Brave effect) at ranges not normally possible. And the Sniper does have good skill for a magic user and a +skill pair-up bonus…. you could quite easily reach a 100% dual strike rate with Sage partner supporting Sniper Sumia!Lucian, WITHOUT using the DLC Limit Breaker (you do need to use tonics and rallies, that said). Of course, you can do this with other classes too; I just thought I'd point out the consistency afford by that option.

I will point out that Gerome does have access to Sage through his class set, even though its not commonly used, so he can play support as a magical unit (Sage) if you wanted him to, regardless of who is father is. And, although its attack strength is inferior compared to other options, he does get the War Monk option through the cleric class tree, which does let him bolster his partner's strength and magic simultaneously without relying on a DLC class.

Henry!Gerome will be strictly better than the Avatar at dealing dual strike damage as a physical damage dealing class like the Berserker from the rear of a pair-up… he has a +5 strength modifier, while the best the Avatar can possibly get (with a strength asset and a flaw that doesn't decreases strength) is +4.

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That's mostly what I thought for Noire, I was a little concerned because that marriage would be good for Morgan but cut off avatar.

So follow up to the first question, is +magic -defense still a good asset flaw for avatar? And is this pairing good with Lucina? I'm just wondering, because I know that as it stands, Lucina gets +5, and coupled with avatar that gives Morgan +7, two super thresholds. But that's a second generation marriage, maybe that's not so great.

Another one on this topic, are there any better combinations of Avatar asset flaws for post game things? I'm not trying to ask you for the best team, that doesn't exist, but if going plus speed and marrying into the first generation is better, then I would like to know.

To that end, if I have someone like Henry!Gerome to be a dedicated berserker support, is that better or worse than pairing avatar up with Lucina? I would assume that avatar is preferable simply because he's a much better unit. My only hesitation is if Lucina would rather run physical (sniper) how well a magic avatar will mesh. But I guess by that same token if she wants magic, Gerome wouldn't mesh at all, and avatar has all of the skills to run physical with no problems.

Hey there, recognize your username from GFaqs. Welcome to SF!

+MAG / -DEF is great. You get +2 SPD and +4 MAG out of the deal to set up for a great magical Morgan, and defensive mods are pretty much worthless in Apotheosis assuming you're running Limit Breaker. +SPD / -DEF is also very popular, but Sumia!Lucina's SPD mod is so high that it's mostly unnecessary unless you want Morgan to run a niche low-SPD class.

2nd gen marriages are great, and a lot more popular nowadays. Way back when, 1st gen marriages were all the rage since you get 2 Morgans and whatnot. But it often doesn't make as good use of Avatar as a combat unit unless you marry Cordelia or Sumia, and you lose out on a super Morgan.

In the end, Henry!Gerome @Berserker will be marginally better than Avatar @Berserker due to having slightly higher STR. However, Avatar has more flexibility (can run Sage, etc. depending on his mods) and of course, you get Aether!Morgan.

Edited by burgerkong

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But it often doesn't make as good use of Avatar as a combat unit unless you marry Cordelia or Sumia, and you lose out on a super Morgan.

As for me, I happen to regularly have my Avatar marry Cordelia these days.

And yes, you can get a super Morgan from Second Gen spouses, but it must be clarified what exactly is meant by this. Often, 3rd gen Morgans only have something like 1-2 stat points in modifiers in sum better than other Morgans. What really makes them better is if you've specialized their mods, with generally gives them something really high in a desired stat at the cost of what are often significant penalties in undesired stats.

There is also the concept of pairing imbalance - 3rd gen Morgan lets all 2nd gens get married, while 2nd gen Morgan doesn't. But seeing that some second genes are likely going to benched anyways (such as Nah), this might not be a big issue after all.

I myself must confess that I take my asset/flaws more on role-playing considerations than actual logical reasons…. I like imagining I'm some form of wizard (I'm very book smart and wizards use tomes/books as weapons), and I'm very weak in real life and don't have a good tolerance for pain. So normally I go as +Mag/-Str or +Mag/-Def for these reasons.

While +Mag/-Def is one of the better combinations out there, there is the issue that my preferred wife for my character, Cordelia, has a -1 magic mod, so I cannot actually capitalize the Magic mod for Morgan as much as I could…. which is why I say that I have not actually chosen logically…. she'd probably be better married by a +SPD Avatar rather than my +MAG avatars that I actually use.

That said, the fact that +MAG gives +2 speed that compounds with Cordelia's +2 speed and the child bonus means that its still not a total loss. My +Mag/-Def Morgan & Severa would end up with:

+2 Str, +4 Magic, +3 Skill, +5 Speed, -1 Luck, -2 Defense, +1 Resistance

Its not the best that's out there, but its serviceable.

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Hey, yeah, I recognize your name too, I started there just because I already had an account for Pokemon trading (for some reason I have a reluctance to make accounts), but that didn't last too long, as the level of expertise seems a lot higher here. Plus there's czar Yoshi.

It's good to know that my instincts were on point, more or less, about most of this stuff, and it's good to know about Lucina, that I didn't ruin anything by planning on pairing with her.

I'm going to go ponder this new age of pairings, and probably pepper the thread with random questions that you all have probably answered a hundred times.

Quick one right now, who do you guys prefer for Virion and Lon'qu? They seem like priority parents with the speed and skill and Wyvern trees. I think one goes with Cordelia and that leaves one leftover, question is, which one is that?

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Hey, yeah, I recognize your name too, I started there just because I already had an account for Pokemon trading (for some reason I have a reluctance to make accounts), but that didn't last too long, as the level of expertise seems a lot higher here. Plus there's czar Yoshi.

It's good to know that my instincts were on point, more or less, about most of this stuff, and it's good to know about Lucina, that I didn't ruin anything by planning on pairing with her.

I'm going to go ponder this new age of pairings, and probably pepper the thread with random questions that you all have probably answered a hundred times.

Quick one right now, who do you guys prefer for Virion and Lon'qu? They seem like priority parents with the speed and skill and Wyvern trees. I think one goes with Cordelia and that leaves one leftover, question is, which one is that?

Lon'qu is less desirable in general (no proc, no Archer, no Dark Mage), so he's probably more likely to end up with Cordelia since Severa needs none of these. He only really works with Severa & Brady, potentially Laurent if you want to VV.

Virion has Archer access, so Yarne & Gerome both want him, in addition to Brady & Severa.

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Generally its best to think in terms of which females/mothers want the males as the parents for their children rather than which possible fathers want particular brides so that they can father the children.

This is because (a.) its the women who are fixed in association with the children [so they NEED to be married in order to get the children] and (b.) there are more men in the marriage pool in the 1st generation than there are marriage women.

That is, if you don't let anyone die, you'd have 3 spare (unmarried) men left over if your male Avatar marries a woman in the 1st generation and 2 spare (unmarried) men left over if your Avatar marries a woman in the 2nd generation (in which case one of the men who would have otherwise gone unmarried can take the Avatar's place in marrying one of the 1st gen women).

So rather than asking, who do you prefer for Virion and Lon'qu, its better to ask the following:

Which, if any, women want Virion or Lon'qu for their children? And do they want a different father more?

Cordelia does well with both of these men.

Virion makes Severa have +5 skill, +5 speed, and gives her access to Tomefaire and Magic+2, Bowfaire and the ability to use a Longbow if she goes to Archer/Sniper, Hit +20, and the Wyvern Rider skills (including Deliverer and Swordbreaker/Lancebreaker).

Lon'qu gives a faster and more skillful Severa (+6 skill and +5 speed) and gives her access to Swordfaire and the Wyvern Rider skills. He also gives her Vantage, although its often not needed if Severa is Galeforce abusing a player-phase strategy. Oh, and he gives her trickster and Asssassin.

I'd argue that Gerome/Cherche want Virion less than Yarne would, as Gerome doesn't naturally have Berserker access [he gets Fighter/Warrior/Hero, Cleric/Sage/War Monk, and Wyvern Rider/Wyvern Lord, Griffon Rider].

Virion's Hit +20 is useful for Berserker, which is something that Gerome would really love to have, but Virion cannot give him Berserker.

Henry might be a better choice for Gerome… +5 strength modifier results, Berserker access, and Hex/Anathema provide a substitute for Hit+20. Gregor gives an even higher +6 strength if I recall correctly as well as the Berserker access, but he doesn't provide these highly sought +Hit skills like Henry does. Likewise, Vaike yields +7 strength Berserker but lacks Hex/Anathema or Hit +20. [Vaike does have Lucky 7, which is strictly better than Hit+20 for the first 7 turns of a battle only, but worthless afterwards… however, since the hardest map, Apotheosis, takes much longer than 7 turns to clear, generally this is not considered a "good" accuracy skill for that map]

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By Lissa, Maribelle, and Cordelia, respectively.

Who are your leftover fathers then?

Hopefully there's someone better left for Gerome, but if not then you might just have to settle for Lon'qu!Gerome (assuming you don't want to rerun the same pairings).

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Lon'qu is less desirable in general (no proc, no Archer, no Dark Mage), so he's probably more likely to end up with Cordelia since Severa needs none of these. He only really works with Severa & Brady, potentially Laurent if you want to VV.

With respect to Lon'qu!Laurent, one notable perk for him is that he's capable of making a 100% Ruin critical hit build on Apotheosis vs. the 55 luck enemies WITHOUT ANY DLC with a Sage support. He has exactly enough skill from Lon'qu's higher skill bonus to make this happen.

CzarYoshi and I were discussing this build that CzarYoshi had worked out in a different thread [that I copied and pasted in this thread when discussing it].

Of course, this is only really applicable to challenge runs.

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Who are your leftover fathers then?

Hopefully there's someone better left for Gerome, but if not then you might just have to settle for Lon'qu!Gerome (assuming you don't want to rerun the same pairings).

Leftover dads are Libra, Ricken, Lon'qu, Gregor. Leftover moms are Panne, Tharja, Miriel, and Cherche.

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Leftover dads are Libra, Ricken, Lon'qu, Gregor. Leftover moms are Panne, Tharja, Miriel, and Cherche.

... ?

You should definitely have at least 1 more dad than mom, even if you're a Female Avatar marrying a 1st gen father. Unless one of them died ...

Anyways, for me personally, disregarding your other pairings I'd run:

Cherche x Ricken = you get Archer + Mage access & balanced mods so you can run Support Sage, Sniper, BK, etc.

Panne x Libra = pretty mediocre mod clash, but gains Dark Mage auras for Support Berserker

Miriel x Lon'qu = basically only gives Vantage, but he'll run Support Sage well enough regardless

Tharja x Gregor = very good non-GF physical Noire

If you need magical Noire, exchanging Libra & Gregor is an option, though Yarne loses out on consistent Hit

Edited by burgerkong

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Another question, does Gaius!Kjelle or Gaius!noire help the unit and the team more? From what I see, Gaius can get Kjelle up to plus 5 speed, while that isn't possible for Noire, meaning Gaius is much better off with Sully. But maybe I'm missing something.

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Another question, does Gaius!Kjelle or Gaius!noire help the unit and the team more? From what I see, Gaius can get Kjelle up to plus 5 speed, while that isn't possible for Noire, meaning Gaius is much better off with Sully. But maybe I'm missing something.

Those are both top of the line pairings, so it comes down to how you want to build your team and what roles you want Kjelle and Noire to fill. That said, I think Kjelle is probably better off with Gaius most of the time.

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Another question, does Gaius!Kjelle or Gaius!noire help the unit and the team more? From what I see, Gaius can get Kjelle up to plus 5 speed, while that isn't possible for Noire, meaning Gaius is much better off with Sully. But maybe I'm missing something.

Team-wise, it really depends on the team composition, and it's pretty hard to judge objectively.

Gaius!Kjelle is probably better, since +5 SPD hits more thresholds in various classes & Kjelle makes better use of the various new physical classes than Noire. +4 SPD is also unfortunate for Noire, since it means she just misses out on 45 SPD Sniper, amongst other things.

However, you have to factor in Donnel's usage. Donnel!Kjelle > Donnel!Noire as well, so a lot of the time it'll boil down to team composition and personal preference.

For example, my current run didn't have a Sniper, so on a whim I decided to run Gaius!Noire @Sniper w/AS+2 & Berserker support. This meant the less optimal Donnel!Kjelle, who I settled for @Paladin with AS+2 & Assassin support.

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I actually think Gaius!Noire is fantastic. He gives her exactly what she needs skillwise and classwise to be an excellent dark knight (or trickster, but she's fast enough to make Dark Knight work, and speed and staff use are Trickster's only advantages), which is obscenely useful on no-brave runs to take care of the aegis berserkers with a levin sword. Just pair her up with sage Laurent and she'll very reliably one-round those guys. You'll need at least one pair capable of taking them down, and she's definitely one of the best ones for the job. Lon'qu!Brady makes a good one too, but he only has access to Trickster, so he'll be inferior to her in general. Then again, Brady can do Dread fighter and use superior Bolt Axes, but Dark Knight's still the better option, since Gaius!Noire still has more than enough power to kill the aegis berserkers and much better move.

Edited by Alastor15243

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By Lissa, Maribelle, and Cordelia, respectively.

Lon'qu could be swapped onto Brady or Severa for better results than their current fathers, so I'd do one of those and keep Gregor!Laurent.

Of course, this is only really applicable to challenge runs.

It's also just plain cool.

Another question, does Gaius!Kjelle or Gaius!noire help the unit and the team more? From what I see, Gaius can get Kjelle up to plus 5 speed, while that isn't possible for Noire, meaning Gaius is much better off with Sully. But maybe I'm missing something.

Gaius!Kjelle is easily A tier, with very potent Paladin and Wyvern sets. Gaius!Noire is still good and can do things like 69 Spd Sniper x Sage without All+2, but she'll still be more of a utility unit who's more reliant on skills and classes than mods (and less of a dominant offensive powerhouse). Noire also fares much better with non-GF dads than Kjelle does thanks to her mods and class set- if Kjelle can't lead, she can't really do anything. Donnel will severely take the wind out of Kjelle's sails thanks to leaving her with a +2 Spd mod, and Sully's -1/-1 Str/Mag make Kjelle a poor fit for a supporting role, no matter her dad (contrast Vaike!Nah's +5 Str, Henry!Nah's +3/3 Str/Mag, and Ricken!Noire's +6 Mag).

The reason people in the old metagame used to recommend Donnel!Kjelle and Gaius!Noire was because Gaius!Kjelle has Myrmidon overlap and people were very averse to class overlap back then (it's never a nice thing, but losing the potential for extra classes doesn't matter if you've already got all you need).

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I'm considering writing up a pairing and character guide for Gamefaqs using the information I've learned from this thread and from tackling apotheosis myself. Probably when I get my new computer, this one is really crappy and old.

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The reason people in the old metagame used to recommend Donnel!Kjelle and Gaius!Noire was because Gaius!Kjelle has Myrmidon overlap and people were very averse to class overlap back then (it's never a nice thing, but losing the potential for extra classes doesn't matter if you've already got all you need).

Wasn't it more because people wanted to optimize for Galeforce and Gaius!Noire was considered far and away better than Donnel!Noire (for good mods and access to things like VV)? I feel like people didn't really think that Gaius!Kjelle was bad per se, just that she was never considered because they felt Gaius needed to go to Noire. In a vacuum I think people would still have agreed that Gaius!Kjelle is just as good, if not better, than Donnel!Kjelle (who gets an amazingly large set of skills but suffers from five-slot syndrome and mediocre mods)

Edited by Bovinian

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I myself know the whole +5/+5 skill/speed thing about Gaius!Kjelle vs. Donnel!Kjelle….

I admit that my preference for Donnel!Kjelle and Gaius!Noire has nothing to do with which one is better for their stats but rather their hair colors and what I think works better for each of them.

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Time to hit this topic once more.

After some study and thinking, these are somewhat the pairings i am thinking on:

Avatar x Cynthia

Chrom x Sumia

Lissa x Ricken

Sully x Gaius

Miriel x Lonqu

Maribelle x Libra

Panne x Virion

Cordelia x Vaike

Nowi x Henry

Tharja x Frederick

Olivia x Stahl

Cherche x Gregor

Any changes i should still make or am i good to go? Anything i might have missed considering my goal?

Im still bit unsure about Maribelle x Libra, Cherche x Gregor and Tharja x Fred aswell.

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Time to hit this topic once more.

After some study and thinking, these are somewhat the pairings i am thinking on:

Avatar x Cynthia

Chrom x Sumia

Lissa x Ricken

Sully x Gaius

Miriel x Lonqu

Maribelle x Libra

Panne x Virion

Cordelia x Vaike

Nowi x Henry

Tharja x Frederick

Olivia x Stahl

Cherche x Gregor

Any changes i should still make or am i good to go? Anything i might have missed considering my goal?

Im still bit unsure about Maribelle x Libra, Cherche x Gregor and Tharja x Fred aswell.

Remind us (maybe just me) of what your goal is? I know you talked about ironmanning it at one point, but I didn't check up on this thread for a while so I might have missed some changes. Are you still thinking of doing no brave weapons?

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Remind us (maybe just me) of what your goal is? I know you talked about ironmanning it at one point, but I didn't check up on this thread for a while so I might have missed some changes. Are you still thinking of doing no brave weapons?

Yeah, the goal was to ironman whole game on lunatic(ingame part without grinding, DLC with grinding) + DLC on top of that, meaning Apo aswell as the other challenge DLCs. Im still considering the no brave weapons aswell, though haven't made up my mind yet about that 100%. Then again, all this planning wouldn't really be worth it if i don't do it :P

Yoshi: I have given some consideration to the child pairings aswell, other than the obvious Avatar x Cynthia but i haven't come up with solid choices on those yet. Was thinking something in line of Inigo x Severa, Lucina x Owain or Yarne, Kjelle x Brady or Owain, Morgan x one of the galeboys, not completely sure about the others. Would be glad for some advice for that too.

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Yeah, the goal was to ironman whole game on lunatic(ingame part without grinding, DLC with grinding) + DLC on top of that, meaning Apo aswell as the other challenge DLCs. Im still considering the no brave weapons aswell, though haven't made up my mind yet about that 100%. Then again, all this planning wouldn't really be worth it if i don't do it :P

If you're not doing brave weapons, then one thing I highly recommend is a solid anti-thronie unit. Thronie is one of the trickiest-to-kill enemies in apotheosis, and it's extremely handy to have somebody who can use a ranged magical weapon (bolt axes or levin swords) to pierce both Thronie's aegis and his high defense. If you're set on that team there, one of the mage boys (one fast enough to reach 69 speed) as a Bolt Axe-wielding dread fighter is your best bet, though Gaius!Noire is probably the best non-morgan option in the game since she can use dark knight while still reaching 69 speed and thus have superior movement and tome access for pavise enemies, she has access to luna, astra and swordfaire, and being a girl she can use all of these skills without compromising aggressor, since that's in the back on her husband, preferably a sage Laurent. I notice you're using Gaius!Kjelle. That's a great pairing too, and if you're going to do something with her that Donnel!Kjelle can't do, then definitely keep that pairing, but just bear in mind that you'll need a replacement for Gaius!Noire's anti-thronie niche. It's not just one enemy, it's at least five berserkers in the last two waves who have high defense and aegis+.

Edited by Alastor15243

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